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 Post subject: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:24 am 
Big Bad Brad
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Ok, so here was the situation:

In a squad containing Mas Amedda, Commander Ashoka and General Skywalker with Dash Rendar RS:

Dash began his turn adjacent to a character and within one square of another. He makes his attacks (all four) and kills the adjacent enemy, thus rolling cleave would come into effect and he thus moves adjacent to the next enemy and twins him. The argument clearly was whether Momentum would come into effect.

Normally, if the character HAD Momentum on his own, it becomes a no brainer. The character would recieve the benefits, quite simply he moved (lower case).

However, this was Skywalker's momentum, which requires an END to Movement(capital M).

Let's say Dash did not have GMA and used his full attack action previously...thus he had no Movement to end. Rolling Cleave itself is not part of a character's Move action, just a "free" action granted.

I think using the above makes it irrelevant that Dash still had 6 squares of movement, that he could or could not use (player's choice).


Writing it out helped me sort it out, I ruled correctly that Momentum was not in effect, but this was the most upset I've ever had anyone so it kind of threw me off. I've been pretty rusty since returning home after a year of not playing:D

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:39 am 
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You sure you ruled correctly? I was under the impression that Rolling Cleave automatically kicked Momentum into play. Now, of course, you did the right thing by trying to come to a good interpretation of the rules, and then sticking to it. That's the judge's job, even if we get it wrong sometimes. You might've been right though, and I totally understand your logic behind it. I'd double check with NickName for the future though.

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:47 am 
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I would say it is correct based on this from NickName-

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... #380478585

Dec 10, 2009 -- 4:56AM, Deeeh wrote:

Yobuck makes double attack, Mas, Commander Ashoka and General Skywalker are in the same squad:

Yobuck defeats an enemy with the first attack and can move 1 square from rolling cleave & make the attack from rolling cleave:

1. Does he get momentum on the attack from rolling cleave?



NickName wrote:
If he moved previously and has declared the move over. The main point being Kybuck would not be able to continue his normal move after benefitting from General Skywalker's CE.



Great question though. I learned that I have seen Gen Skywalker played incorrectly many times with his use with Yobuck and Galloping Attack lol.

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:54 am 
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Nickname's answer doesn't seem to fit that question though. Nickname's answer was referring to the use of Gallop and Momentum. That question was talking about using Double-Attack and Momentum. I was always under the impression that if a character used Double Attack, and they got a Rolling Cleave off the first one, that Momentum would kick in on the Rolling Cleave attack, because at that point, you will have 'finished your move'.

Now, the situation with Dash that TCW talked about, it would be one of those things where the player would have to declare that they were done moving and wanted to use Momentum (similar to how Deadeye/Careful Shot must be declared ahead of time). I think that's how it should actually work out. If the player wished to move 1 space from Rolling Cleave, finish their attacks, and then continue moving due to Dash's GMA, then yes, I would agree that he would not get Momentum.

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:01 am 
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Um sorry no. The question clearly says Yobuck makes a Double Attack. :P That is where I see NickName's answer does fit the question cause he states and has declared the move over, so if Dash player said I'm not moving and killed first piece and then moved on the Cleave attack he would receive momentum. Cleave again if possible with momentum and then still have a double attack (assuming the first attack killed the first guy) with momentum (assuming there is an adjacent legal target available) or regular shot without momentum.

So, I would see it similiar to Deadeye in that if you don't declare it before you roll against the first attack, you don't get the bonus.

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:08 am 
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NickName's response seems to imply that you have to move at least one square using your move action to benefit from Skywalker's CE.

Quote:
Yobuck defeats an enemy with the first attack and can move 1 square from rolling cleave & make the attack from rolling cleave:

1. Does he get momentum on the attack from rolling cleave?




If he moved previously and has declared the move over. The main point being Kybuck would not be able to continue his normal move after benefitting from General Skywalker's CE.


If you haven't done (any part of) your normal move and declared it over, you haven't ended your move.


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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:23 am 
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You're right Boba. I was just reading it different.

@ swinefeld. The trick is that it's a combination of things. Skywalker's CE requires 2 things. That you have moved at least 1 square, and that you have ended your movement. So, in the case of Yobuck doing Double Attack, you have already declared your movement to be over by doing a Double Attack, so that satisfies the first part of the criteria. It's not based on your 'normal move' I think. So, once you move 1 square due to Rolling Cleave, now you've satisfied the 2nd part of the equation, and can benefit from Momentum.

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:40 am 
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@Lobo, well I just have to disagree :P

Momentum says "moved this turn". If the character already has Momentum, Rolling Cleave activates it.
Skywalker's CE says "who end their move...".

The key part of NickName's answer was:

Quote:
If he moved previously and has declared the move over.


If Kybuck had moved previously, he wouldn't be able to double attack in the first place. Dash on the other hand could, so he would have to explicitly declare his movement over. So I see NickName's wording as being pretty clear that you have to actually use your move action to move at least one square, then end it, in order to receive the CE.

It certainly is a bit confusing.
We may well have to bug NickName to get an official answer to this exact situation.

Edit: and I believe there may be a precedent about "moving zero squares" with regards to some other abilities, but I'm not sure I could track that down as I don't recall the specifics...


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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:57 am 
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OK, nevermind. My previous arguments are officially wrong.

Why couldn't I have found this thread before the other? :P

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... #362367797

Edit: The CE should have been worded "who end a move within 6 squares..."


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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:04 am 
Big Bad Brad
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See I think the "zero square move precedent" that states that C3Po Ewok Deity who has a move of 0 can not "end" his movement next to a rebel troop cart and board may apply here. No character can simply just choose to "end" their movement without moving at least 1 square, per the Ewok Diety ruling. Herego, no one can benefit from "ending" their movement within 6 (or in this case, anywhere) of General Skywalker, without actually using their Move action to move at least 1 square.

In my opinion, the 1 square movement granted from Rolling Cleave is NOT part of their standard Move action, it's simply movement.

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:07 am 
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swinefeld wrote:
OK, nevermind. My previous arguments are officially wrong.

Why couldn't I have found this thread before the other? :P

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... #362367797

Edit: The CE should have been worded "who end a move within 6 squares..."



Ah yes...."a" move and "their" move are really quite different. So I did rule wrong, but I'm not even sure this has been inserted into the FAQ.

Although, I have to admit having mulled it over in the absence of this ruling, I think this is one time where I have to disagree with Jason...it just doesn't match precedent(see above) in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:18 am 
Big Bad Brad
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Okay wait a minute then...so let's change the situation. No Mas, and the character moved 6 to base his opponent. Gen. Skywalker is 6 away as is Ashoka.

He is granted momentum(he ended his movement within 6) on his attacks (still using Dash) and kills the opponet. HE then gets rolling cleave, but now since he has ended "A new movement" outside of Skywalker's range, he no longer gets Momentum??? I don't like that interaction at all...surely you're not saying he can use his previous check to still have it granted...the two rulings would completely contradict each other.

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:31 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Okay wait a minute then...so let's change the situation. No Mas, and the character moved 6 to base his opponent. Gen. Skywalker is 6 away as is Ashoka.

He is granted momentum(he ended his movement within 6) on his attacks (still using Dash) and kills the opponet. HE then gets rolling cleave, but now since he has ended "A new movement" outside of Skywalker's range, he no longer gets Momentum??? I don't like that interaction at all...surely you're not saying he can use his previous check to still have it granted...the two rulings would completely contradict each other.


From what I read, once the character declares the normal move over (within 6 of Skywalker) he gains momentum for the rest of the turn, whether RC then takes him father away or not. That precedent was set with CS Durge.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... #367411241


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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:35 am 
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Yeah I know, I'm just really irritated that I got it wrong. I've been doing that a lot lately since I got back. Though I finally thought I was back into the flow with this one.

Still I feel like there is a bit of a contradiction here...

Really I just need to think of Gen. Skywalker's card as being errated to read "a move" and I'll get over it.

I'm over it :D

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:42 am 
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Eh, don't beat yourself up over it Brad. There's plenty of odd-ball ones like this out there that can get really confusing, especially when you have two players breathing down your neck to make a decision. The key is to make the call, and stick to it for the duration of the tournament.

I always remember the story about Rob Watkins rulling the interaction of Transfer Essence and Thrawn's Force Bubble incorrectly during GenCon '06, and from what I understand, it may have cost somebody a game. The ruling was then clarified shortly after. So, even the game designer does it. No reason for you to feel bad. We're all human. :)

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:53 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Eh, don't beat yourself up over it Brad. There's plenty of odd-ball ones like this out there that can get really confusing, especially when you have two players breathing down your neck to make a decision. The key is to make the call, and stick to it for the duration of the tournament.

I always remember the story about Rob Watkins rulling the interaction of Transfer Essence and Thrawn's Force Bubble incorrectly during GenCon '06, and from what I understand, it may have cost somebody a game. The ruling was then clarified shortly after. So, even the game designer does it. No reason for you to feel bad. We're all human. :)



Wait I don't think I heard this one. What happened? I could have swore I was there in 06 but maybe not.

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:05 am 
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Check with Bill or Eric (Engineer) sometime. I wasn't there. Just have heard the story a few times from one of them.

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Yeah, and then he promptly errata'd Force Immunity to work as intended.

To give Rob credit, he ruled it as he designed and intended the interaction. The wording just wasn't matching the intent. That was a huge sore spot during the early part of SSM debacle.

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 Post subject: Re: This one had me Stumped: Rolling Cleave + Momentun+GMA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:47 pm 
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The story was this.

Matt Peterson (MtMagus) was playing Engineer in 06 in the semifinals. Matt had Exar and wanted to transfer into the bubble from outside it and the triple attack would kill thrawn (40hps remaining). Since the rules were that transfer did not actually target, it should have been allowed. Matt was not allowed to do so, and Eric ended up winning a close game (which he wouldn't have if the ruling had been made correctly). Matt ended up taking third, and Eric ended up beating me in a Black and Blue mirror match (he had copied my squad after I let them all know for testing, etc). Eric won Gencon 06, and became a legend, and Matt had to wait 3 more years to get into the Hall of Fame.

Later that week, Nickname gave the correct ruling (which would have allowed Matt to do as the rules should have allowed) and 6 months later Rob gave us an errata on the bubble that would actually prevent it.

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