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 Post subject: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:41 pm 
Master of the Order
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OK, here's one I was just thinking about.

If a piece starts adjacent to Zuckuss (say Yobuck). If they decide to try moving, and provoke the AoO, but then Zuckuss hits with one of his attacks, then no movement occurs. I understand that. But here's my question: at that point, would Yobuck be allowed to use his Double Attack on Zuckuss (or other adjacent piece), or would he only be allowed a single attack since he provoked the AoO by declaring he was going to use his move action? He never actually moved. So how does that work?

My gut reaction would be "well, he didn't move, so he can make both his attacks". But the act of declaring a move, whether you did or not is what's tripping me up. It's kind of like the Force Defense/Lightsaber Assault interaction, where you already replaced your attack to use Assault, even though you actually didn't get to do anything with that part of your turn.


EDIT: Maybe this is covered in one of the threads on WOTC, but I can't get there while at work, which is when I think of these crazy things. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:47 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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The Glossary definition is: "A single, immediate attack against an adjacent enemy who moves. If an enemy moves out of a square adjacent to a character, that character can make an attack of opportunity against that enemy." So you make the AoO after you've already moved 1 square, so YoBuck would be 1 square away and not adjacent anymore. You don't say to your opponent "I'm gonna let you take an AoO" before you move, you say it while/after you've already moved 1 square away. So YoBuck would be screwed and not able to hit anything because he's already moved.


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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:52 pm 
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I'm not sure if that's correct or not. AoOs always happen before you actually leave the current square. The Glossary for Snare Gun is worded a tad odd in regards to that though. It really should say "If an enemy chooses to move out of a square adjacent to this character..."

Because as I've understood Snare Gun so far, it would stop Yobuck as soon as he enters any square adjacent to Zuckuss, and then attempted to move further. Thus, why I'm asking.

If it is as you said, Chris, then the answer would be obvious, and he'd already moved 1 square, and thus not able to make any extra attacks. But I always thought the AoO happened before you actually moved, and thus the quandary I found myself in.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:01 pm 
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You are right Lobo he has not left the square. I think what Chris is referring to though is that you started your move. So if the AOO missed you would continue the move you already started.

So if it hits you moved just not successfully.

I agree with Chris and as a judge I would rule you lost your double.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:04 pm 
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OK, cool, that's how I was thinking it would be ruled as well, just wanted to get some other opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:29 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Ah but one caveat to that. I think there is a precedent.

I am fairly certain that the requirement is "having moved 0 squares" not replacing something for a double or whatever. In the past, let's say a 50hp character with deadeye or something, takes and AoO and the fig crits. Maybe his move plan was to take another AoO, but now he doesn't want to. He is allowed then to sit still and use deadeye.

I'm pretty sure this is the ruling, and it would apply here. In fact, it's probably been ruled before somewhere, I just don't feel like searching :)

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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:21 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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but the move triggers the aoo.

So that is really a bad ruling... no offense to who made it.

But the move triggers the aoo. So you have in fact gone into movement. Just because you got crit should not mean you get a take back but crit happened. That is making your deflect roll before you declare you are going to use it. Well if it is a 11 or higher I will use it.... if it is less I will just take the damage.


I will disagree with that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:23 pm 
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I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure I remember Jason ruled it that way. Have to check with him on it though. I could just remember it wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:35 pm 
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There was a thread that Nickname didn't seem to get to that I believe is applicable to this situation.

I will say, that I would say it would be fairly consistant with how the rulings concerning movement have gone.

Your movement is cancelled before you actually move a space, and with all similar rulings concerning movement, you have to have moved at least one square before you are considered to have moved. So, if you have not moved at least one square, you are considered to have not moved.

As Threepio, Ewok Diety has proved, declaring movement means squat when it comes to moving.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:31 am 
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Well, luckily, the issue never came up last night at the LGS. But I still think it's a good one to investigate further. I think Bill may be right in terms of how things have been ruled in the past. Though I agree with Dean that we may want to talk to Nickname about looking to rule it the other way. I wonder what other interactions there might be that would screw it up? Momentum comes to mind, but I seem to remember that one requiring at least 1 square of movement.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Well what bill said would make sense since 'moving' for an AoO and then the wording for double is if the character hasn't 'moved' this turn would appear to be 2 different things.

'Moving' is part of the movement phase, while the act of 'not moving' in the double wording might specifically pertain to having physically left a square.

Rough...I could see it going either way at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:38 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Here's an uber-easy solution: ask Nickname ;) If I remember when I get home I'll ask it, and whenever he responds I'll post here ^_^


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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:26 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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I asked the question in a thread already devoted to Snare Rifle and AoO that NN hadn't answered. Interesting thing I did find, a list Ray and NN worked on involving what you and can't do with Snare Rifle:

Quote:
I never thought this would turn into an ability we need to figure out like Force Immunity! Let's try to make a quick list.

Yes, you can!
Force Push
Force Repulse
CE Swapping
Passenger (Troop Cart or Skiff)

No, you can't!
Move on your turn
Move through a CE
Tow Cable
Levitation
Lift

Am I missing anything? Did I get anything wrong? This will be a handy list for the future.


Surprised to see Tow Cable, hadn't thought of that. Zuckuss just became even more powerful, IMO!


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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:08 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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A similar question but using traditional pieces and abilities:

Can you declare movement to trigger an AOO (expecting/hoping to repose or Djem So) then NOT move and attack with a double?


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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:30 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Nickname's answer:
Quote:

It's all pretty much the same as Motti89's (correct) answer. It was established way back with Princess Leia Senator that to count as having moved, it's one square minimum. If you do not cover that distance you haven't moved. You can't use a "end" a move action without moving a square and count as having moved. And you incur whatever benefits (and detriments) that are based on movement universally from there. There's no "sort of moved" or "used my move action but didn't move" kind of stuff.

And then to get specific, since Kybuck hasn't moved, you can still use Double Attack. And others could use Careful Shot, Mighty Swing and so on.

But you can't board a transport, take advantage of a Leia Senator type CE, benefit from Momentum, Furious Assault, nor charging Assault simply by attempting to move.

The double attack one is pretty oddball. Good question.



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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:55 am 
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This is one rules area I would like to see cleaned up once WotC is out of the picture. I think there needs to be a "Replaces Movement" concept similar - strike that, identical - to the Replaces Attack or Replaces Turn concepts. For example:

Double Attack (Replaces movement: Make 1 Extra Attack)
Deadeye (Replaces movement: This character gets +10 Damage on all attacks this turn)

I think the way the rules are written right now, there is a lot of ambiguity, and frankly, a double standard. If a player is subjecting a character to an attack of opportunity, it is because the character started to move. Snare Rifle exposes some of the problems with the issue. Or maybe how AoOs work just need clarification/revision, that once you declare what square you are moving to, you still complete that 1-square movement after the AoO resolves, and then resolve other effects.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:05 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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That's a frickin great idea! Reminds me of the RPG where you have you can forgo your movement action to do something.

One big problem with Snare Rifle that I've seen most people have is that the definition is "A character hit by this character's attack cannot move until the end of this round." The whole "end of this round" made people think they could only take their action as the last activation of the round and then they could move. Maybe it could be changed to "A character hit by this character's attack cannot move this round. Next round this character can move on their turn." That would clear up some of the problems people are having...


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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:02 pm 
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jedispyder wrote:
One big problem with Snare Rifle that I've seen most people have is that the definition is "A character hit by this character's attack cannot move until the end of this round." The whole "end of this round" made people think they could only take their action as the last activation of the round and then they could move. Maybe it could be changed to "A character hit by this character's attack cannot move this round. Next round this character can move on their turn." That would clear up some of the problems people are having...


Yes, "the end of this round" is as clear as mud to me. So I can activate the character, I just cant move, unless I activate the character as my last activation, uh then I can move or uh, yeah, nice wording WoTC nice wording......... :saber:


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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:08 pm 
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No, it means you can't move at all during the round. The 'end of the round' is after ALL pieces have finished activating. So, it basically just allows you to activate, and still attack if you want, but you just can't move at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrapping my head around Zuckuss still
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:20 pm 
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Then why put "until" in there? It leads to the expectation that you can move.


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