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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:05 am 
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NickName wrote:
Sorry, I didn't think the discussion was an argument. :D It seemed like something worth talking about.

And no one is saying Rob's a genius regardless of how this set turns out. It's just there's a pattern of doomsaying just prior to release with every set, and the last 6 times it's turned out do no significant harm to the game. Even the mistakes. (There is a tendency to dwell on the 1% of stuff that's problematic rather than the 99% that's better than anything else out there.) Until we can see everything, I prefer to give Rob the benefit of the doubt and to stay positive in general. :)


There it is again. Trivialization of the other side of the argument. *YOU* think that there has not been significant harm. I feel the reverse, I am not alone, but jeez is it pretty noisy in here with people saying that our claims are just 'doomsaying'.

I will make a prediction, based on historical data: The person who wins GenCon '08 will use a majority of points on newer pieces. Last year, it was B&B, pretty new... this past year, Boba BH, wicket and JWMs, also pretty new. I am almost sure enough to open this to all the players in the top 8.

Whatever, I am through with these discussions, as I said repeatedly, neither side will convince the other that they are right. Neither side will ever feel wrong. All that will happen is a bunch of defensive maneuvering and eventually lead to personal attacks.

[edit]BAD spelling error!


Last edited by emr131 on Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:43 am 
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emr131 wrote:
I will make a prediction, based on historical data: The person who wins GenCon '08 will use a majority of points on newer pieces. Last year, it was B&B, pretty new... this past year, Boba BH, wicket and JWMs, also pretty new. I am almost sure enough to open this to all the players in the top 8.


Eh....again...that's mostly marketing strategy. Honestly though, it's not like most of the top 8 at GenCon this year had squads that were that difficult to obtain. Only a couple of the top 8 had Boba BH. JWMs, Han Scoudrel, Obi-FS, Princess Leia, Wicket, San Hill....all super easy pieces to buy as singles, and all for pretty much less than $5-$7 apiece. Besides the fact that many of those squads still contained pieces from older sets: R2-Astromech, Weequay Leader, Twi-lek BGs, Quarren Assassins, Ewoks, etc. Heck, even the B&B army from GenCon '06...the only 'new' piece it had at the time was Mas Amedda! Everything else was from Universe or Rebel Storm!

Yes, there are always going to be new pieces that rise to the top. Honestly, if new sets don't contain pieces that shift the meta, then the game will die. It HAS to happen. Whether that happens by power-creep or not is really an individual opinion....

emr131 wrote:
Whatever, I am through with these discussions, as I said repeatedly, neither side will convince the other that they are right. Neither side will ever feel wrong. All that will happen is a bunch of defensive maneuvering and eventually lead to personal attacks.


...and here's where I definitely agree with you. Like I said, a lot of it comes down to an individual opinion. What one person thinks is power creep, another person things is just a natural shift in the game. Heck, when Lord Vader came out in BH, most of us put JH back on the shelf. But once most of us started learning how to beat the JWMs, and A&E came along with some powerful force users....Here comes JH back again. He was never 'power-creeped' by Lord Vader. It was just that, for a time, JH's specific set of Special Abilities didn't seem to be the best choice.

It's just that some of us see that trend in past sets where pieces move in and out of the playable arena, and everything seems to point toward that continuing in the future. So far, I've not seen one single thing that makes me think "Oh my goodness, the game will never, ever be the same again." But, like you said, I guess it's just a personal preference.

I for one, am really looking forward to all the new Force Powers. I think it really mixes things up a bit, and should be a ton of fun!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:08 am 
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And i love how the pro-power creep crowd never brings into play when old figures come back into play. San was never seen, but post B&B, he is now a top squad. Who used ECTs before Bacara? I think this argument is largely change vs no change crowds. Some of us like the change. Others don't like the change.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:37 am 
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Not to mention the fact that you want to use the new pieces. Nobody wants a set that will be completely useless. Good players blend what was good from the old with what is good from the new.

This is one of the best games ever. Rob and company do a great job of keeping it that way.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:44 am 
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Can someone please post a link to the list of the Gencon top 8 squads?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:09 am 
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Fool wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
Can someone please post a link to the list of the Gencon top 8 squads?


As insane as it seems there seems to be no thread here relaying that info.

I never went but I read somewhere what those 8 squads were....Irregradless they should be posted in the 150 Pt Forum as a sticky by that Mod ASAP so we can remember what they were - as well as the French National Championship squads.

Let's get on it mods!

That's crazy! And thanks for the quick reply, but:

OW! You hit me right in the PET PEEVE!!! "Irregardless" = NOT A WORD!!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:14 am 
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Fool wrote:
Well of course Irregardless isn't but

Irregradless is

:D

Irregradless - (adj.) to be without graduates of an atypical nature.

:D


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:51 am 
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Fool wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
Can someone please post a link to the list of the Gencon top 8 squads?


As insane as it seems there seems to be no thread here relaying that info.

I never went but I read somewhere what those 8 squads were....Irregradless they should be posted in the 150 Pt Forum as a sticky by that Mod ASAP so we can remember what they were - as well as the French National Championship squads.

Let's get on it mods!


Holy crap, you guys are right. I'll try to remember what I can and post up a thread real quick in the 150 pt section. Boris, Bill, NickName, Dean, etc. ought to be able to fill any holes that I miss.

Actually though, I thought there was a thread over on the WotC forums with this same info at one point.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:55 am 
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Can someone please post a link to the list of the Gencon top 8 squads?


Main SWM page at wizards. Archive. Gencon 2007 Tournement Report from late August 2007.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:15 am 
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There it is again. Trivialization of the other side of the argument. *YOU* think that there has not been significant harm. I feel the reverse, I am not alone, but jeez is it pretty noisy in here with people saying that our claims are just 'doomsaying'.


Gencon 2007 included the largest SWM tourney to date with 90 players and 2-3 others that exceeded 30. Nearly everyone seemed to have a great time, including you. The French championship had 50 players. Even if you don't find the game perfect or even if you find it's gotten worse over time, the past doomsayers have clearly not been correct about any of the past sets killing the game and this summer was arguably a high point from a player's perspective.

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I will make a prediction, based on historical data: The person who wins GenCon '08 will use a majority of points on newer pieces. Last year, it was B&B, pretty new... this past year, Boba BH, wicket and JWMs, also pretty new. I am almost sure enough to open this to all the players in the top 8.


A reasonable prediction. If there's a big Gencon tourney next year wouldn't that alone prove that the doom foretold about the death of the game in 2007 was incorrect?

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All that will happen is a bunch of defensive maneuvering and eventually lead to personal attacks.


Not from me.

Anyway, if it's not clear, from my perspective "doomsaying" = dead game. If you didn't say "set N is going to kill the game" then you aren't the doomsayer I'm talking about and your argument (about whatever different subject you're talking about) is in no way trivialized. (I didn't really have either you or Graeme in mind when regarding that comment.) If you did say that, then your argument is trivial, because the game is clearly not dead. :D And if you keep saying it about every set you will eventually be right because the game will end at some point. ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:22 am 
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And if you keep saying it about every set you will eventually be right because the game will end at some point.


Its this attitude that really irks me. I dont mind if people dont like figure X or whatever. It is the constant negativism and that everything new is going to bring the downfall of the game. If people feel that bad about every thing new, they do not belong not only in SWM, but any type of expandable game.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:45 am 
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That, and you would think the nay-sayers would have learned something after the huge false hype behind the JWM. He wasn't nearly what everyone was panicking about.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:49 am 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
That, and you would think the nay-sayers would have learned something after the huge false hype behind the JWM. He wasn't nearly what everyone was panicking about.


Yeah, turns out the JWM is competitive melee... whoda thunk it? ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:11 pm 
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Gemini1179 wrote:
Yeah, turns out the JWM is competitive melee... whoda thunk it? ;)

Everyone said he was going to be the end because he was too powerful and too broken. In fact the opposite came to be true. While powerful, he is hardly what he was talked up to be.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:55 pm 
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Actually, first let me start by saying that I actually consider myself a "moderate" in this argument/discussion. I do not think the game is horribly broken... in fact, SWM is far LESS Broken than MTG. Neither do I consider myself a doomsayer... I was merely observing that, on the surface, it seemed like there was a trend that had me nervous.

What has been most frustrating in this thread is the fervor with which I was branded a "doomsayer", and with which those on the "positive" side seem unwilling to even CONSIDER that there might be a problem. Honestly, I felt like I was trying to convince a religious zealot that not everything is necessarily the Hand of God.

Bottom line, I truly hope that the new set both revitalizes the game, and fails to screw it up. I am worried, still, that we are seeing power creep beyond what I think is healthy... but as stated several times, I agree we won't know until we see the entire set. I will say that I wish the creep I've seen wasn't quite as heavy handed... but since apparently I'm the only one that sees it that way, perhaps I'm just confused.

Anyway, I'm done with the discussion... not because I'm mad or feel we're doomed... but because it serves no purpose. I'm talking with folks who aren't really interested in hearing the other side of the discussion (which is why, actually, I ended up ON that other side... as I was seeking balanced discussion... and no one else seemed prepared to take the moderate path with me).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:20 pm 
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Please note that no one I can see used doomsayer in reference to you, myself included. Being on the 'unpopular' side of an argument can sometimes make it seem like people are ganging up on you when that's not really the intent. Once we got to the core of your issue (which required seeing your position more fully fleshed out through the various posts) it's pretty easy to see you aren't a "doomsayer" and the issue with these previews is really a fairly small margin in their point costs. (I'm still quite interested in what you and EMR131 think would be accurate costs for these figures that would make them both competetive and accurately priced, but perhaps the discussion has become to heated for that.)

Also, while it may not be clear, your positions are being considered as are EMR131's even when I disagree.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:38 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
What has been most frustrating in this thread is the fervor with which I was branded a "doomsayer", and with which those on the "positive" side seem unwilling to even CONSIDER that there might be a problem. Honestly, I felt like I was trying to convince a religious zealot that not everything is necessarily the Hand of God.


LOL, that's a funny analogy, and I can see how it would fit.

I wouldn't think it's necessarily that some of us are unwilling to consider the possibilities. It's just that we take the previews we have so far, and compare them to the previews we got of previous sets, and then compare everything over the life of the game, and it just doesn't seem like there is a problem anywhere. Time will tell though.

I definitely think this is all a good discussion. Certainly pieces like Vader and Kazdan will change the shape of the game, but hopefully all for the best. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:46 pm 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
Gemini1179 wrote:
Yeah, turns out the JWM is competitive melee... whoda thunk it? ;)

Everyone said he was going to be the end because he was too powerful and too broken. In fact the opposite came to be true. While powerful, he is hardly what he was talked up to be.


Exactly, and I'd like to see more light side unique Jedi end up this way. I play SWM because I love the melee, and it's tough because unless you use specific builds, melee is an uphill battle. Thankfully I'm pretty stubborn and I don't think I'll ever not use CS Yoda... unless I'm trying out a differently themed squad... or playing competitively, which I don't do. :P


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:35 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Please note that no one I can see used doomsayer in reference to you, myself included. Being on the 'unpopular' side of an argument can sometimes make it seem like people are ganging up on you when that's not really the intent. Once we got to the core of your issue (which required seeing your position more fully fleshed out through the various posts) it's pretty easy to see you aren't a "doomsayer" and the issue with these previews is really a fairly small margin in their point costs. (I'm still quite interested in what you and EMR131 think would be accurate costs for these figures that would make them both competetive and accurately priced, but perhaps the discussion has become to heated for that.)

Also, while it may not be clear, your positions are being considered as are EMR131's even when I disagree.


Veiled reference vs. specific reference = same result. What matters is the perception... and certainly it felt like I was talking to an inflexible audience at times.

And I'll point out that my very first posts on the topic stated the exact same thing... I haven't really evolved I don't think, Jason... I started out saying "I hope I'm wrong, but I'm nervous about what this might represent"... and I'm still saying exactly that.

And to answer your question, I'd say that I can answer that if you really want me to. For example...

Vader U, in my opinion, should be up by about 8 points. He is clearly superior to the high 40s-low 50s crowd, by comparison. I'm ok with a slight creep here, but it seems to be more than slight on the surface. I outlined my reasoning before on other posts, I'll repeat if you wish.

Our super-reinforcements guy seems actually more of an issue. If you build properly to take advantage of him, it will be INsane. You have a 20% chance of 30 points, every turn... and that's a baseline. However, add in Recon, and the percentage goes up fast. Worse yet, add in QuiGonn, and you have a recipe for horror. You can give yourself a nearly 50% chance of 30 points in reinforcements on any given turn (and potentially more if you add in other reinforcement machines). What makes him even worse is that he's actually a solid fighter by himself. Frankly, he feels off by at least 10-12 points. If he were 65ish, I'd STILL see him as viable with the right build. Yes, Han Rogue hoses him... but individual counter figures are going to happen, and I'm totally ok with that... he still gets his base 20% of 30 points/turn. If he's NOT countered by Han Rogue (or equivalent), you are getting an average of 14 points of droids/turn if you build around him (which you will).

Uggernaut is much harder to quantify, as he has SO many variables involved. However, if I use the fact that he's Fringe (and thus should be paying the fringe cost) and then compare him with things like the huges from the Separatists, he shines. I'd have to sit down and do some pretty careful math to try to give you a less "TLAR" response, but my gut tells me he's also about 10% off (so probably around 40ish).

Anyway... I realize that opinions are like... well... we all know what they're like. I will be the first to admit that I haven't sat down and ground out the details well enough yet... but my rudimentary math seems to show something is awry, which is what started me down this whole path in the first place.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:05 pm 
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Our super-reinforcements guy seems actually more of an issue. If you build properly to take advantage of him, it will be INsane. You have a 20% chance of 30 points, every turn... and that's a baseline. However, add in Recon, and the percentage goes up fast. Worse yet, add in QuiGonn, and you have a recipe for horror. You can give yourself a nearly 50% chance of 30 points in reinforcements on any given turn (and potentially more if you add in other reinforcement machines). What makes him even worse is that he's actually a solid fighter by himself. Frankly, he feels off by at least 10-12 points. If he were 65ish, I'd STILL see him as viable with the right build. Yes, Han Rogue hoses him... but individual counter figures are going to happen, and I'm totally ok with that... he still gets his base 20% of 30 points/turn. If he's NOT countered by Han Rogue (or equivalent), you are getting an average of 14 points of droids/turn if you build around him (which you will).
I think you are giving this guy WAY too much credit. In DCI this guy is going to suck hardcore! First you have a fighter with the stats of a character 20points less. He is roughly a mid thirties fighter. And the Reserves give up points. Droids are notoriously weak defensive and HP characters, so you will lose to points long before your squad gets killed. As i said in a different thread too, any one bringing Lobot is going to pack jawas for the reinforcements.

Now, if you do a kill em all type format, then i can see a bit of a problem, so i would put a point cap out there or something.

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