kazklar wrote:
Force powers also do not negate targeting (excluding lightsaber throw 3 and 5) so any chance of us hitting a big piece can be brought down by a mouse droid.
Neither do non-accurate shooters. And when people run non-accurate shooters, which btw is very common in the current meta, they have to consider how they get around screens. Anyone running force push does the exact same thing. It's really no different at all actually.
kazklar wrote:
I don't really know what you mean by melee interference, honestly any shooter that doesn't have accurate will be shooting at whatever is in front of them anyway (quite possibly a beat stick.) That doesn't make a quad shooter melee interference, it makes them going after your "big guy". You pick and choose your targets based on how your opponent acts and you react and vise versa.
I gotta disagree with you there. If all you ever do is pick and choose based on how your opponent moves, then you will lose to the best of the best almost everytime. I'm not going to do a massive strategy session on this, but I think the easy example of Luke's snowspeeder and it's massive speed options works well enough to pick and choose what I want to attack and when.
kazklar wrote:
Again the snow speeder is not melee interference it is a interference piece in general. Anything that can move such a great distance, have no AoO's and still get 2 shots off is a wonderful piece. The thing I'm starting to see more and more is more of a Tactic. It is slow advancement, tempo control, and a bit of a wait. Pick off any of their big guys on their way in, finish them off by the time they get there. From that point on it is just cleaning up the mess.
**side note** If you really want to run a ranged piece as a melee piece, then by all means do not shoot until you are adjacent.
The bold point is completely semantics. You picked one of several examples I gave. How about Aurra JH then? I've used Luke HPU in this roll before. I can call it "melee interference" if I want to because it makes a different point that simply interference. I used WFFs in that role in 2007 and made the top 8 with it. I can count on one hand how many ranged shots they took in all 8 of my games that year. I'm trying to differentiate the role a figure takes in a squad, and simply calling it interference doesn't have the same meaning. If you want to call it something else, that's fine, it's a point I am trying to make about options that's important here.
As to your point about the slow play strategy, well, that's another topic altogether. Frankly, its something that's been around for a long time.
kazklar wrote:
You haven't changed the rolls of anyone, you have simply increased their damage output and options for positioning.
That wasn't the only point I was making. The point was that each of those combos increases the options. You mentioned it as well in bold. The point is this. Many of you say, "Melee sucks, it's not competitive". I respond with, "What about Vader JH in 2005, Vader JH in B&B 2006, JWMs with Broken Boba in 2007, Loda in 2008, and Luke Commando in 2009, or Yodabuck, or the Lancer, etc." The inevitable response is, "those don't count because they aren't X". I'm sick of it. No one makes the same requirements of the non-melee pieces that compete that they do of the melee pieces. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Han Scoundrel is garbage without Leia and Obi. Luke's SS is an ok piece without Leia and Reeikan. Han Smuggler is garbage without the same. Be fair in your critiques. If you are gonna say all melee sucks because you dismiss every competitive melee that has another gimmick, then you have to do exactly the same for all non-melee. Melee pieces have to have a role in a squad when they can't easily get to the opponent. That's why the pieces with a gimmick option, tend to be the most competitive, especially in the current meta with the current map list. If you change the maps, there are a great many other melee that can compete that people might consider non-gimmicky. Anyways, try running a good shooter without his support and you will start to see what I am saying. Melee has a roll in squad building at the top of the game, always has.
What people really want are melee that can play the role of primary damage dealer, not just be competitive. That's the key here. Problem is, if you create a melee figure that can do this for any old player, then you have a figure like GOWK. There are plenty of melee figures that can do this in a variety of squad designs, it's just that most players aren't capable of pulling it off on a regular basis.
Further, at venues like Gencon, some of us would be comfortable playing melee (I had an almost all melee 200pt squad, and my 100 used Yoda GM) in the champs itself if not for one factor. Championship play includes people taking every advantage, and that means hiding and running, and slow playing. It's very hard to win in a 5-6 round game with a melee figure as your primary damage dealer in many cases, especially with the current map list. But even given this, it wasn't until about 12:30PM Sat morning that I finally bagged my plans of running Lord Vader in the Champs. Let me guess, he doesn't count because I would have used Thrawn swapping to get him into position to kill.....
kazklar wrote:
I agree with the synergy, but that is the basis of squad building. It is redundant to run a squad with General Wedge Antilles if all of your characters are either commanders or have evade/mobile attack. This is not a new revelation.
Maybe I wasn't clear, but I am talking about a much deeper level. Madine and an ERC have obvious synergy. But using Madine, the ERC and Luke Commando to set off the ERC, and to actually pull this off in a Speeder heavy meta, together with a strong map choice is so much more than that. Further, using Luke to pull of Han shots and in particular, Han granted Leia shots is more than most players can really see coming in many cases. And the player that can see the options has the advantage. That's the point. Luke in this squad is melee interference, with another role to play as well. He also can benefit from Leia and Madine, but in particular, he can put the shooters in places that the opponent can't always account for.
billiv15 wrote:
And this post gives me a great idea for my next "Playing to Win" article. I also think this might make a nice discussion point for the Radio show. So expect to hear some more from me on the topic as I think it through further
kazklar wrote:
No
Don't think I asked permission. But reading your response even furthers that I should address this deeper level of squad building. I've said things for years about this, but never been clear on how to get it all to make sense to others. It's why net decking doesn't work, and it's why squad building itself has little bearing on most game out comes.