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 Post subject: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:55 am 
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Cross posting from WotC since the forum is apparently going down for a week and people have been curious about this for a while...

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Now that the new FAQ is in place, I can finally discuss this issue publicly as it's no longer a problem.

First, the new rule is that the beveled corners only impact movement. They are treated just like a normal corner for LOS.

So here's the basic situation from the previous rules as LOS is interpreted across a beveled corner. The corner can be legally drawn across if it's beveled where if a standard corner replaced it there would be no LOS. It really had almost no impact as normally considered. Death Star changes virtually nothing, and Mos Eisley and Bespin have a few new LOS 'connections' like the one shown below.
Image

Teth Courtyard, Nelvaan, and Rattatak introduced a wrinkle that sees a bit more play. From square 2 one might consider the possibility of LOS down the entire row containing square 1. The "single dot corner" LOS is in important places on the these new maps and becomes a factor (if not an exploitative one) that needs to be clarified explicitly.
Image
Additionally, Chris West said his understanding was that LOS would be very limited or non-existent in the case when designing the map, so there's some serindipity in the change as these maps work a bit more as intended.

And further additionally, players in general have had a tough time understanding the corner is just the actual corner, not the whole triangular area between the grid lines and the beveled wall corner. It's hard to misunderstand the new way.

The real problem has existed pretty much forever in the situation below. It's due to beveled corners being used on thin walls rather than a solid wall block. All of a sudden a character can be in square A "inside" the beveled corner. And like the examples above, he can legally draw LOS through the corner marked with the green dot, making B, C, D, and E legal targets. Effectively shooting through walls.
Image
Mos Eisley and Bespin offer significant abuse of the situation.

There is the noted new situation of the "bunker" created on Teth Monastery where a few squares in the right starting area are unattackable when a character is placed in them. In the short term, if you don't want to give your opponent access to such a bunker, don't bring the map as your opponent will get side choice. In the longer term, DCI will keep tabs on the situation and remove the map should the abuse be too great. The map has been rather unpopular (from a gameplay perspective) in its short time as DCI legal anyway.

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Last edited by NickName on Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:37 am 
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Very cool NickName. Thanks for the history lesson. :D

So I guess the loop hole that you had been waiting for some of us to find was the whole "shooting through walls" aspect, huh? I never though of that! :P Good thing I guess.

Glad to see it all worked out now though. The ruling really is now that beveled corners ONLY affect movement, right? Basically, for purposes of LOS and targetting opponents, you treat a beveled corner just like any other wall corner?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:45 am 
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I guess from now on - at least til the next Floor Rules update - I'll be trying to get that 51+ point lead and then hiding in the "campsite corner" on Teth. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:28 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I guess from now on - at least til the next Floor Rules update - I'll be trying to get that 51+ point lead and then hiding in the "campsite corner" on Teth. :P


I'm thinking...

Thrawn
Mas
BFBH or a Vader
Medical Droid
Uggie Demo
Mouse Droids
Imp. Dignitaries

Thrawn and Mas in one alcove, BFBH or Vader in the other. Swarm gambit with the Mice and Dignitaries. Swap BFBH for a Dignitary as needed. Swap BFBH back to heal.

Or a Rebel version with K-3PO, Camaasi, and VAR


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 Post subject: Re: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:44 pm 
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I actually like this better than the beveled corner rule of old.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:29 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
So I guess the loop hole that you had been waiting for some of us to find was the whole "shooting through walls" aspect, huh?


Yup.

Quote:
I never though of that! :P Good thing I guess.


Indeed. We actually had the first person other than me figure it out on their own and PM me last week. Saw it this morning right after getting the email from WotC that they updated the FAQ to the new rules. +1 Dark Side points for Janssen7 (or similar. don't recall exact screen name) and +1 Light Side points for PMing me rather than telling the world. :)

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Glad to see it all worked out now though. The ruling really is now that beveled corners ONLY affect movement, right? Basically, for purposes of LOS and targetting opponents, you treat a beveled corner just like any other wall corner?


Exactly. Edited that in above for clarity.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:59 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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But in the above example with Luke and the Rodian there is no LOS connection with the new rules, or am I mistaken? Technically the LOS nicks a corner of a wall, so why does it say "ok"?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:49 pm 
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because that picture and the paragraph about it are discussing how it worked BEFORE the change.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:06 pm 
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When you explained it to me it all made sense. It's just a shame it had to be all or none. Ultimately I would have loved for it to be the old "through the corner only" ruling with the exception of - "but you can't do the shoot through walls BS". But I understand - then how do you word that without making it EVEN MORE confusing. It's funny - I think since nobody "figured out the loophole" before - I think that means the community as a whole excepted that shooting through walls was illegal. <Edit - 1 person figured it out, but went to you as opposed to telling the world.>


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 Post subject: Re: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:14 pm 
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What happens, if I am on Teth Monastery, for example, and my opponent hides some minis on the right side in the squares that can only be accessed through beveled corners? Can I still make an attack, if I am adjacent to the enemy model or is it "indestructable" once it is in that spot, because I can't draw LOS to it?

EDIT: Okay, I think I found the answer:

Q: How do beveled corner squares affect line of sight?

A: The do not affect line of sight at all. They affect movement. They are treated exactly as if they are normal corners in regards to line of sight, including the situation where there are two beveled corners directly opposite each other across a corner. In such cases characters don't have line of sight even if it looks like they might count as adjacent. They are not adjacent, do not have line of sight, cannot attack, and do not give up attacks of opportunity.


But this is just wrong. Teth Monastery has to be banned, or the loophole to be fixed otherwise. Since the beveled corner clearly uses up less space than the rest of a square, it should be clear to everyone that a mini is in that part of the square that uses most of the square. Why do "clarifications" have to make things unplayable so often? It is the same with GOWK. It is not so easy to change rules after something has been designed with another rule in mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:25 pm 
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You've interpreted it correctly.

Teth will likely not be on the legal list next time and that would have been true regardless of the bunker issue so it's not all that relevent though I wouldn't disagree.

Until then, the setup rules mostly mitigate the problem. If you bring Teth, you are giving your opponent access to the bunker and any potential abuse it might create. You'd better be prepared. If you aren't, don't bring it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Beveled Corners are Changed in the New FAQ
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:31 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
When you explained it to me it all made sense. It's just a shame it had to be all or none. Ultimately I would have loved for it to be the old "through the corner only" ruling with the exception of - "but you can't do the shoot through walls BS". But I understand - then how do you word that without making it EVEN MORE confusing. It's funny - I think since nobody "figured out the loophole" before - I think that means the community as a whole excepted that shooting through walls was illegal. <Edit - 1 person figured it out, but went to you as opposed to telling the world.>


You've expressed my sentiments almost exactly. The silver lining is that Nelvaan and Rat Arena are improved maps due to it.

The other thing I wonder about is if I showed up at Gencon and managed to abuse it in half my games what would the reaction have been? :) Would that have been a better way to deal with it than quietly fixing it behind the scenes and dealing with the inevitible detractors? Idle speculation, since I could never bring myself to do it anymore than I could do a 2 round lockout victory even when the opportunity presents. (And it has.)

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