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 Post subject: Hardcore DCI tourny etiquette?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:32 pm 
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So here is the deal. I know there are steps used in resolving effects. My question is when is too late to change your mind? Example. I have a character with accurate shot and target a piece in my opponents squad. My opponent then says Draw fire. In the resolving effects this is clearly step 2 and then step 3, but can you as the active player change your mind becuase you forgot about draw fire and select a new target and therefor be back at step 2? or because you are at step 2 it is officially too late? How would a judge rule this at GENCON?

I guess my question stems from rolling the die as being the "can't go back anymore step", so I'd like to know if there are any other situations where you can't go back.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardcore DCI tourny etiquette?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:37 pm 
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Technically, the moment you declare anything, like saying, attacking X, you have already passed the time to go back. You do not get to change your mind because your opponent does something that you do not like. I would not allow you to go back in this case in a hardcore event, either as your opponent, or as a judge.

Think of it like this, if you decided to do a big force power within 6 of someone with force defense because you "forgot they had it", and your opponent says, "Ok I'll defense it" would you expect to be allowed to back up and do something else instead?

Now, you asked for hardcore, and that is the answer. In casual play it's probably ok, but even still, I think I would have a hard time morally justifying doing that in a case where it was my mistake. Sure, on occasion it happens with a closed door, or not seeing a closer target, etc, and I don't think that is as big of a deal casually. But doing it because my opponent makes a valid response is a moral problem for me, even casually.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardcore DCI tourny etiquette?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:38 pm 
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Hmm...hard to say for sure. As a judge at an event like GenCon though, I think I would have to decide that if the attacking player verbally declared a target ("OK, so-and-so is going to shoot at this person"), and then the defending player said "Draw Fire", then you can't really go back after that point.

There's plenty of things that at GenCon people will be sticklers about, but you wouldn't see it at the LGS. Things like moving pieces out of order, or forgetting that doors are closed/open, etc. At the LGS, all the time, I'll move somebody, then try to shoot, and we then realize the door is closed. So then I go, "Oh, OK, well, then move this Ugo first, then I'll move this other guy and shoot" and that's just fine. But at GenCon, you've already started the activation of the piece, and moved them, and tried to declare a target. At that point, your only options are to choose a different target if possible, or do something else with the rest of your turn (move further, replace your attack, etc.).

Although, I've found that even at GenCon, a lot of folks play pretty loose, and you'll only see that super picky stuff at maybe the do-or-die rounds of the Championships or stuff like that.

EDIT: lol, Bill beat me. Said basically the same thing though. Good points about the moral aspect of it though. Whether it's legal or not to go back, it is an element of "it's your own dumb fault" there, so not really fair to the other player.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardcore DCI tourny etiquette?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:16 pm 
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Well, the rule of thumb for me is if a legal play is declared, that's it. Now, if an opponent moved up to a door that was closed thinking it was open and declared an attack on an illegal target, I would allow them to restart the turn. But once a legal action occurs - ESPECIALLY if it is something I must respond to before they finish the current action - then sorry, no take-backs.

Even in casual games, I usually make people stick to their mistakes, and I stick to mine. To do otherwise is to invite sloppy play when it matters. You perform like you practice. And I have ZERO sympathy for people who ask to take back certain moves but whine when I do the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardcore DCI tourny etiquette?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:32 pm 
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Yep, I wanted the "hardcore" response. Thanks guys. Yeah I play at a venue where we are pretty casual. I have seen people take back entire activations and decide to move someone else. We don't play for store prizes and I think that is why we don't have any issues, so all anyone really cares about is having fun and getting better.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardcore DCI tourny etiquette?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:38 pm 
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Boba52 wrote:
Yep, I wanted the "hardcore" response. Thanks guys. Yeah I play at a venue where we are pretty casual. I have seen people take back entire activations and decide to move someone else.


Well let me add that there's nothing wrong IMO with moving a piece and then moving it back as long as its not a slow play action. The issue would be moving the piece, declaring something like Grenades or the use of a Force power or an attack and then rolling a d20, and then deciding that wasn't the "smart" play.

Also, if you give up an AoO, then that piece has to move. Pretty much a good rule of thumb is once the d20 is rolled or a specific legal action that affects another player is declared, that's it. And once a character's turn is over, you can't go back and restart the entire phase.

Just my take on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardcore DCI tourny etiquette?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:48 pm 
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Boba52 wrote:
Yep, I wanted the "hardcore" response. Thanks guys. Yeah I play at a venue where we are pretty casual. I have seen people take back entire activations and decide to move someone else. We don't play for store prizes and I think that is why we don't have any issues, so all anyone really cares about is having fun and getting better.


I have heard rumor that for the right amount of money though the Head Judge at the Champs can be bought.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardcore DCI tourny etiquette?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:11 am 
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dnemiller wrote:

I have heard rumor that for the right amount of money though the Head Judge at the Champs can be bought.



Do they take VISA? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Hardcore DCI tourny etiquette?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:47 am 
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LESHIPPY wrote:
dnemiller wrote:

I have heard rumor that for the right amount of money though the Head Judge at the Champs can be bought.



Do they take VISA? :)


Sure, if you are willing to give them your credit card they will take it. Lunch is on Jim! :P

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 Post subject: Re: Hardcore DCI tourny etiquette?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:30 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
dnemiller wrote:

I have heard rumor that for the right amount of money though the Head Judge at the Champs can be bought.



Do they take VISA? :)


Sure, if you are willing to give them your credit card they will take it. Lunch is on Jim! :P


Well since Jim's buying, I'll need my lunch delivered to Carbondale.
It's the least he can do for telling me how great Gencon is all the time when he knows I can't go...
Think they'll charge extra for that? :lol:


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