At the top tables right now?

Yobuck
GGDAC w/ Lancers or IG-86s (either or both, IMO)
NR (the anti-CW builds)
Speedy Cannon/Rieekan builds
Rieekan/Madine Commandos (stronger than I realized, and that 50 HP makes them a pain to kill with a lot of pieces doing only 40 per turn)
San's Hunters
B&B
Swiss Army Knife (maybe...hurt by Yobuck/Lancers some, but boosted by new Thrawn...hard to say as I haven't tested it much due to the GOWK meta)
Vong (DPR showed at GenCon last year they were viable, and the Mouse Droid makes them better)
Mandos (make a comeback, again 50 HP helps a lot against Yobuck/Lancer, and also helped by the Mouse Droid)
Republic Shooters (Rex + Fringe, etc., see the winning squad at Cincy Regional)
Republic Jedi (Panaka + Jedi is tough to deal with, maybe only Tier 1.5, but it's close, and new cheap Republic in JA will help more)

I'm sure I've probably missed a couple.

Ozzel is not a good piece for B&B, and definitely not against GOWK. The problem is the swapping. All it takes is your opponent knowing how to count. How many squares can I safely place GOWK away from a potential swap target before you take your series of turns.

I have seen it happen first-hand, and against someone who is a fairly new player. Hell I was the one running the B&B Ozzel build. I didn't have Lord Vader, but the principle was the same. He measured how far the closest fodder was and where it would have to be for LOS if Vader got swapped in. He used his fodder to force longer movement distances if I wanted to reach GOWK or one of his support pieces for a straight-up attack. I can imagine a similar situation with Lord Vader. Move to 11+ squares away from the closest swap target. Then either Vader comes charging in any way, and next round gets to attack but gets hit back in the process, or the swap fodder dies before it comes any closer - and at a point where it still requires 8's to hit GOWK.

Also, what LoboStele said is correct. You can't build against GOWK, Rex, Dash, R2, fodder, and think the game is in the bag. I ran my GOWK variant with a JWM instead of Rex last week. Against LV I would keep the JWM closest to the front line. LV needs 9's to hit him, at best. Or 13's in the situation described above.

Finally, I see this mistake of saying "my squad outactivates" made a lot. How many activations you have at the start of the game is irrelevant. It's how many you have in round 4 vs. how many your opponent has that matters. In a 100 pt. game, you may have 7 activations and I may have 4 at the start of the game, but if yours are Ugnaught x6 and Darth Bane, and mine are Yobuck, R2, Aurra Sing, Ugnaught, well then good luck. You will very quickly have 1 and I will still have at least 3.

My friend has started using a variation of this using Han RH, Luke RC & a Mouse Droid. Luke uses GMA, Cunning +20 & Advantageous Attack for 100 Damage. It's brutal! You should've seen the look on his opponent's face when luke walked up to his Malak, rolling a 20 & 17!

Just in reguards to the Bodyguard... he does nothing against Lord Vader really unless Vader is attacking GoWK... so absorb 2 hits? Lord Vader can Sith Rage with opportunist for 40... Bodyguard then takes 1 shot to die or as it seems everyone is ajacent to the body guard he can sweep and kill a bunch... Who needs overwhelming force for Rex and Dash?

Also with a bodyguard were looking at a 9 activation max squad so Opportunist should be available.

So when are more previews coming out...

Yeah, I always forget that you can't Bodyguard if the opponent uses Overwhelming Force. But a SMART player, even one who is playing the 9 activation squad with Rex/Dash/Bodyguard, should NEVER let the opponent get Opportunist AND Sith Rage against them. Too easy to count squares and avoid that kind of a problem, honestly.

GOWK
Dash
JWM
Human BG
R2
MD x2
Ug x3
Camaasi Noble x1

11 acts. to start with.

My quote was in reguards to the GOWK/Rex/Dash/Bodyguard squad. Which I assume would also include the Doombot. Obviously its possible to get higher with other pieces

I love this whole assumption that the meta will be blown wide open without GOWK... that's just not a prediction I am willing to accept at this point. IMO, GOWK doesn't truly restrict the meta at the highly competitive levels; rather, he shifts it. I know I'm not the only one out there who thinks so (looking at you, Deri).

Frankly, if GOWK is banned, I think we'll go back to a meta dominated by GMA/Evade/Tempo Control, and that's SO much better than what we have right now. [/sarcasm]

It's gotta be better than GOWK. I'd rather know I'm accomplishing something when I shoot my opponent than just have that stupid Soresu ignore it.

OK, I have just spent hours reading a 10 page thread...

I attended the regionals near where I live, and though there were only a few GOWK squads, having to play them left a bad taste in my mouth. In one game I managed to say within a few points of my opponent (26 to 40) and GOWK was down to 30HP with no FP's when time was called. GOWK being my best chance of the win, I hit him with everything I had left. He avoided 5 attacks for 30 damage that turn, and I lost the game. Considering how hard I worked to get him to 30HP, I just felt disgusted with that game (no fault to my opponent, he was a good player). I know I am not a top player, and play more for the fun of the competition when I can, but games like that are not worth a 2+ hour drive and 5+ hours of games to leave feeling like I did not stand a chance because I chose not to play a piece that, in my opinion, makes the game less fun.

Remove General Obi-Won Kenobi from DCI play for six months and re-evaluate when the DCI rules are updated again.

AMEN to that

At least w/ the GMA/DA/TA heavy meta, IF it goes back to that after the ban and JA, there is a better chance of beating those squads than beating a GOWK squad. And the afformentioned multi-attack meta will not detract people from bringing other teams like a GOWK-crazy meta would, IMO.

Also, with the increased (apparently) emphasis on melee characters, the multi-attackers will not last as long as previously, especially with the increase in ranged defensive powers that are out now and that will be coming out. NR would gladly meet a range heavy team, with Wedge and Leia JK salivating

So basically, the meta is a bunch of multi-attacking shooter and the pieces that can beat them, as opposed to GOWK and the pieces that can beat GOWK squads. Whoopie.

I don't think you guys realize the number of squads that are made viable at a competitive level that would not be if GOWK squads weren't an issue. Force Push squads had real trouble before. Vong were almost never seen at a competitive level (and while they still are not, they're only getting stronger). I would very much hesitate to run my Thrawn's Boomstick squad in the alternative meta. There are several direct-damage squads that I would probably consider less than viable were it not for the counter to GOWK and a number of squads that counter GOWK.

Let me say it again: I don't see any evidence that GOWK restricts the meta at the top tables or even in a semi-competitive LGS environment. He simply shifts it.

Now, do I think he's good for the long-term health of the game? Not without errata. I'm still of the opinion that changing his CE as I mentioned would work. I'll have to test it to get a better idea. OTOH, though, I'm actually kind of enjoying the new meta. I don't go into every tourney thinking, "great, I'm almost certainly gonna see twin shooters and evade 2-3 out of the 4 games I play... what fun." Heck, I'd even consider Vong a competitive option at this point in a way that they've never been.

I want shooter squads to be viable. I want swarms to be viable. I want low-activation armies to be viable. I want melee-centric squads to be viable. I want both Vong and DirectDam squads to be viable. But hey, I highly doubt that we're ever gonna get most, much less all, of those together, so I'll take what I can get at this point. A meta where melee is dominant for once is not a meta that hurts my feelings a whole lot.

But melee isn't dominant. GOWK is dominant, with direct damage being his only opponent.

GMA/Double/Twin is also a little more powerful than it used to be, because unloading as many attacks on GOWK as possible is the only chance non-direct damage has (and it hardly ever works, I have to say). Normal attackers, even if they have the anti-ranged abilities to get up close, are completely useless because if GMA/Twin can't get through GOWK, what hope do they have?

Whoa, back up, this is not the certainty that you are claiming that you then base your entire post on. I completely disagree with that statement. The counter to GMA/Evade is already built right into it. Evade. In the 2008 Gencon meta, when I played Han Scoundrel against Boba BH (3 times I think) it was completely strategy that won those games. I often simply based figures with the snowspeeder, and fired away. That is a vastly better meta, without even considering the other squads that are and were viable that didn't rely on evade. You are quite simply oversimplifying to make a point that you clearly want to make regardless of any real evidence.

I am sorry, it wouldn't be just GMA/Evade in the meta anyways. I submit that you would see San Hill squads, NR without Wedge, Rebuplic melee swapping with Yodabuck and Rex instead of GOWK (which beats the crap out of most evading shooters), and let's not forget Sep droids, which were top tier at 150 until the change. The Lancer for example, cares very little for evade, and disruptive is generally only a minor problem for it in most cases. The JA melee pieces are significantly better than you are giving credit for, and there would be several of them in the new meta, that won't be until GOWK is banned.

Yeah and I don't think you have a clue either. You mentioned 3 whole squads..... Whoopie..... Let's look at them. Force push. Is it really as good as advertised in this meta? Nope. It's won two regionals, in the hands of the same player, who has been playing it for a while. He is also playing it very well, and I would argue, that James would be doing just as well with it minus GOWK. It's a tier 1.5 squad, but James plays it to Tier 1. You claim the meta would be all GMA/Evade if GOWK is gone, well guess what, Force push works just as well in that meta.

0 Vong have made the top 4 at any regional. Last year at Gencon, one Vong squad went 5-2, in the hands of DPR. DPR has not played his regional yet, I wouldn't be surprised to see him be the first top 4 with it. Nothing has changed here, and nothing will. Vong are melee, and they work equally well against GMA/Evade as they do against GOWK. It just takes a very good player to make it work well, and very flawless play. The new JA melee will keep Vong as a viable squad option locally for quite some time, I don't see how GOWK being banned changes their place one bit.

Name em. I don't know what your thrawn squad is, so I can't comment on it. Direct damage is a good counter to evade, so saying it goes away is stupid.

That's because you made up your mind months ago, and refuse to actually look at the situation in any objective way. That's all well and good, but the facts are important to the rest of us. I've said it in many threads, you can't just look at the regional results as a true example of "top table" play. You have to take the top 4-8 from each of those, and put them in the same tournament. You have to have 3-4 players running GOWK flawlessly against flawless "counters", which we have not really seen much. You have to look at who is winning with force push, and how.

I mean come on, the guy in Cali won because he rolled 4 20s..... Sweet, I think I would now run Boba BH and Bothans and hope for the 20! That sounds like an awesome meta to me!!!!

And in case you or anyone else decides to make the claim that I too made up my mind months ago, I admit it, I did. I also have done more math and more testing on this than anyone else that I know of, and I think my results speak for themselves. Am I biased? Sure I am. But not in the way that would allow you to dismiss my perspective easily. I actually really want melee to be competitive. I love running it. I love running Vong, I love running Jedi. My bias would tell me that GOWK is great! Yet I am here, ardently on the other side of it.

As opposed to playing GOWK or anti-GOWK? How many squads does that make? About 4? That sounds like an amazingly fun game!

Yeah, I'll take the ban, thank you.

I originally thought GOWK wasn't a big deal. I thought that there would be plenty of ways to deal with him, including direct damage and throwing a lot of attacks his way. Then I actually tested it. I think the turning point for me was the game that GOWK avoided 560 damage with only one re-roll. Is this the norm? No, it is not. But that, combined with other tests, convinced me that he's bad for the game.

What do we typically see as the response to JA figures that have been previewed? Well, maybe I'm biased in this aspect, but most of them have been, "S/he's not good against GOWK" or "S/he'll be great against GOWK." I, for one, really don't like that. JA is giving us some amazing figures - the more I see of the switch to 40 figure sets, the more I like the change - there are far fewer wasted figures and almost all are great additions to the game.

Without GOWK, we'll have an entirely open post-JA meta with lots of different squad types all being viable. What do we have now? GOWK and Anti-GOWK.

this just gets better and better

You've got we pegged for the wrong person here. If you read this post, and others I've made on the subject, you would be able to see that I don't like what I think GOWK is going to do in the long rung; OTOH, I also don't think he restricts the meta all that much (simply shifts it, to beat a dead horse).



You're making an argument against something that I didn't say. I said that the metagame would revolve around evade/twin/gma squads and the squads that beat them, not that it would "just be GMA/Evade." As for the JA pieces... again, you've got the wrong person here. If anything, I've had the most positive things to say about JA of anyone regularly posting on them. Seriously, feel free to check every single spoiler thread here or at WotC.



Well first off, you're wrong. The Colorado Regional was won by Force Push. Also, GOWK-centric squads are weaker against Force Push than a lot of shooter squads are for a number of reasons that I'm sure you know, especially in the case of the squads that seem to be the most popular GOWK builds.



Well yeah, you just said the EXACT same thing that I said, so far as I can tell, with one exception. I don't think that Vong are made weaker simply by banning GOWK. Rather, I think they will be made weaker by the re-shifting of the meta that will occur if (and probably when) GOWK is banned. High damage twin attackers, even the ones with low attack values, generally cause serious problems for Vong squads. At the same time, those squads seem to have serious trouble with what GOWK brings to the table.



Again, you're reading WAY too much into what I'm saying here. As for the squads, I've been posting them all over the boards for weeks.



Yeah... and you made up your mind a long time ago about what I think, regardless of the fact that you apparently have it all wrong. I said, in the very post that you quoted, that I do not think that "[GOWK]'s good for the long-term health of the game." Did you miss that, or just ignore it?



Over-simplification and you know it, or at least you should. He listed out the 20's that he rolled, and only one was significant by your own standards. That one was also the only significant big D that I believe he rolled in the entire tourney.



Let me spell it out for you, since you seemed to have completely overlooked the last part of my post: I want everything to be competitive. I would love to see the top 16 squads at GC contain a melee-centric, a Vong, a DirectD squad or two, a couple of shooter squads, a Thrawn squad, a couple other classics, and a few squads nobody saw coming. I would LOVE to see that. However, I don't think that it's going to happen. I also don't think that banning GOWK is going to have a serious impact on the variety in the top 16. In fact, I would go so far as to say that 14/16 will be from 3 total factions with 4-5 squad archetypes. Furthermore, I would bet that Vong don't make the top table unless they're in a NR squad (one of the main 3 factions, along with Rebels, that I expect to see). Honestly, if that turns out to be the case, I have to ask how it's so very much better than what we have now.

And just to make my position clear, I'm leaning towards a ban still, though my reasons have shifted somewhat. But hey, like you said, you made up your mind months ago, so the fact that I'm saying this will probably just be ignored, anyways .

Dude right now the meta is only 75-100 figures give or take. Without GOWK and the republic still having about the same ce in a way the new CE might be stronger or weaker for figures(anakin stap). So they will still be a strong faction at 150 and 200 without GOWK. So republic should be at the tables. Empire with thrawn,NR just well rounded, Seps can fight without GOWK now, Rebel cannon squads are back now/push will still be around because of rieekan i think. OR sith Mandos vong are still a little short but i think can go 5-2/4-3. The OR did get some fun new toys so we will see how that turns out. Vong got some great new figures so i think they are 1.5 now played by a great player on a closed map. GOWK takes san out of the meta same with shooter squads to a point.

With the grand masters,loda,evade,leia ce,mobile should keep mobile evade squads in check. djem so grand masters evade and high def ce should let melee fight. so I see a really open Meta if GOWK is gone.

But what Bill is trying to explain to you, is that history has ALREADY proved that this is incorrect. DPR ran his Vong squad and went 5-2 at GenCon last year. There were two other people at 5-2 that made it into the top 8. So DPR missed getting into the Top 8 due to Strength of Schedule alone. Everyone has been saying that if GOWK goes away, we'll go back to a meta that is more similar to what we had last year. Well, that would mean then that if Vong could be run to a 5-2 finish last year, then there's no reason they couldn't do it again this year. Especially now with the Mouse Droid, and then the three new Vong in JA, which are all excellent additions to the faction. There's no reason for them to decrease in playability at all.



Personally, I still can't believe that ANYONE is winning games with Boba + 1 or more Bothans. No squads like that did well at GenCon last year, except for TINT's. It's an extremely easy squad archetype to win against, you just have to know how to play against it. I don't know enough details about the players who ran those squads, but I'd say there's almost certainly some difference in skill level, or at the very least, the GOWK players didn't have enough experience against the Boba/Bothan builds to properly beat them. There are SO many other builds that work great against that as well, I just can't fathom how it's done as well as it has.



Already has. Top 16 at GenCon last year included Speedy Cannon, Boba BH squads, NR, San Hill, Vong, Holo-Veers squad (no one saw coming), Han Cannon, and more I can't remember. The best pieces for Mandos/Sith (Scouts/Malak) didn't come out till KOTOR, so it's reasonable that they didn't make an appearance. I can't remember for sure, but I'd guess there was a JWM swarm of some sort in there as well. Even so, I listed 5 of the 6 'competitive' factions there already (ignoring OR, Sith, Mandos). If there was a Republic squad, then it's all 6 of them.

Yes, it'd be great to see a representation from each faction in the top 16, and with the new additions for OR, Sith, and Mandos, we might see some of them this year (heck, if we add the results from GenCon and PAX last year, that brings the Mandos into the picture). But we already saw basically that kind of diversity last year, at least as much as could reasonably be expected based on the competitive pieces available at the time. But with GOWK, the Seps are out completely, so there goes 1 faction altogether, right off the bat.



Hmm....maybe you need to explain your logic here a bit more. Most of the people with experience from GenCon, have identified a good 10-12 squad types that have been competitive in the past, and would come back to the front without GOWK. If you feel it's only 4-5 squad types, then maybe if you want us to better understand you, you need to take some of those lists of squads that others have proposed, and give your reasoning why you feel they won't be competitive.

Just for reference sake, here's a quick run-down of what I can remember at the moment that people have thrown forward...

Speedy Cannon
Han Cannon
Rebel Push w/ Rieekan
Mandos
Vong
B&B
Swiss Army Knife (maybe only 1.5 if the Lancer/Yobuck makes enough of a comeback)
GGDAC squads
San builds
Yobuck swap
Republic Jedi swarms
GM Yoda/Rex/Dash style builds (basically slot in Yoda instead of GOWK)
Sith w/ Malak (a la Ben's squad from Racine)
New Republic (builds both w/ and without Wedge, some melee centric, some mobile/evade shooter centric)

I mean, that's 14-15 types right there. They might not ALL be Tier 1, but those are all at least Tier 1.5, and 90% of the time, the Tier 1.5 ones can be run with GREAT success, if it's a player that really knows the squad well and plays it flawlessly. In addition, some of those Tier 1.5 builds can be counters to other Tier 1 builds, which end up making them more like Tier 1.25, lol. That's what most of us are looking at when we talk about a more diverse meta.

I have, and Moses has. Try this when you get a chance:

62 Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter
51 Bothan Noble x3
18 R2P0
09 General Dodonna
06 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2
03 Mouse Droid x1

At 200, you can add a second shooter, something like Han Scoundrel and a Camaasi Noble.

Now, I won't lie and say it's unbeatable, or that some of the newer pieces haven't had an impact. Rieekan kills it. Wedge slows it down. But in a field of GOWK or even just Republic-based solid squads like Panaka swap, it is tough. I can't say what JA will do to it.

It's not about rolling the 20 with Boba, either. He's making 8 shots a round, and it's very simple to play once you get the hang of it. Let your opponent move all their pieces, and then position Boba where you want him - meaning where he can get the best shots. Then run the Bothans up and unload. Rolling a 20 is just gravy, but I guarantee even against Evade style stuff, you are going to land hits.

The best part of the squad is that the opponent basically has to kill Boba in one turn to win. Good luck with that. I've actually sacrificed a Noble after healing to keep Boba alive one more round. You have to base him with everything to beat him, and it's not easy to do. Normally I can heal up to 40-60 damage before he takes the first hit in the next round. I've had some games where he dropped down to 20 HP and ended the game with full health. (And yes, I won those games.)

It's easy to dismiss because experienced players know how to beat Boba, but it's not as weak as some people think. Aaron what happened to you in Cincy in your game against James happens frequently with this squad. It just picks apart the support and then takes the key shots on the big stuff.

On average, a player will roll a 20 once per game. With this squad, guess who's getting that roll.