True. Things do seem like they get out of hand here, but they do have this tendency to come back around.

I'll ask MarkIV about it tonight. He actually doesn't really think its a big deal at all, and he rarely brings it up. He has mentioned something about the two squads being Emperor + Vader vs Boba + stuff. Long story short, Vader double crits and kills Boba, then one of his low point activations crits Vader for the win. Or something like that.

Found an old wizards site with the listing of tournaments for 04...http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rp ... miniatures

Actually, I think the real reason we argue about GOWK so much is because we don't have much else to talk about. Stupid no previews for Exile/Maul...

Yep, I hear ya. I'd put you in a similar spot as StriderRe80. Both very good players that just a few more key wins, and perhaps a tad more strategic improvement, and you'll be right there with the best of the best, trading game for game based on the luck of the dice, and not so much on the difference in skill level.

Just one more point for the Wash guys. (I hope this is taken as helpful and not inflammatory). I know you said more of you are getting onto Vassal, and that is great. There seems to be a lot of rallying the wagons from you guys, ever since PAX, and to a degree, I certainly understand it. There is also a lot of legitimate skepticism on our part, because you guys are so closed off, and are often at odds with the "conventional wisdom" of the boards. And without significant cross over of players there is little way to judge or value your perspectives.

What I suggest is, instead of arguing for a "place", just go out and earn it. Instead of latching onto a guy who won a Rebel Storm Tournament in 2004, long before the game had any competitive aspect at all (and to be perfectly clear, this isn't slight on him at all, as I know nothing of him, it's a response to the comment, "We have a former world champion so we must be great" comments), just get out there and show us that you guys are great, instead of telling us so. Vassal is the great equalizer, and will go a long way to proving your point. I also suggest trying to participate in Gencon (if you can obviously - recognizing that may not be possible for a lot of you). The rest of us didn't get our "street cred" overnight, or based on challenging the conventional wisdom sometimes "strongly". We got it because we proved we could play with the best over and over again.

This is a great community, and I welcome the increased presence you guys have had the past few months. From what I have heard, you guys are doing a great job growing the game up there, and that is great. Keep it up, get on Vassal, play in some of our tournies, and literally, prove your strength. That will do far more than rallying the wagons

Heck, there was a point, maybe 2 years ago, where WOTC had an open position for a Manufacturing Programs Engineer on their staff, and I seriously considered applying for it, because the job description is not that different from my current job, and it sounded like it would be cool to work for them. I ended up not applying for it for a multitude of reasons, but one of the things that surprised me at the time, was I started looking into whether there was a SWM group out in Seattle, because I had only been involved in the game for about a year, and was already extremely enjoying the group we have here in Cincy. At that time, I don't think I really could find anybody out there that played the game. May not have looked hard enough, but the point is, you guys are WAY more active on the forums now, and have certainly asserted your presence as a location that has a large draw, and a good base of players.

Like Bill said, it's tough to judge the competition when you've never really played against each other much. GenCon is so awesome because even though it does tend to be pretty heavily weighted with mid-westerners, we still get people from Florida, California, Georgia, Alabama, New Jersey, Great Britain, Canada, etc., so it ends up being a pretty diverse field overall. Especially since the guys that travel the really far distances (like from other countries) are usually some of the top players from those areas. Most people won't travel that far unless they think it's really worth it, which means they end up being some pretty tough opponents.

Being on Vassal more often is awesome. Heck, I'll be on there tonight for a while probably. If any of you are around (I know the time zones make it tough), I'd love to throw down some, and test out Regional squads.

to add to that the vassal tournies I have run have had an interantional flavor.

IT has brought out the Germans, The Brits, The Canadian and Aussies all playing with us Americans. Talk about some tough tournies. Last thing you want to be is paired up against a couple of our German brethren, they will take you to task and it wont matter what you are playing or what they are playing it wont be easy.

@bill

So, I think part of the reason the wagons were, um, rallied, is that, whether it was intended to be that way or not, many of the posts throughout the GOWK debate were "well, you didn't place at Gencon, so your opinion doesn't matter". Now, as you pointed out, GenCon isn't feasible for many of us (being originally from the Midwest/having spent 22 years of my life there, GenCon is the Big Thing out there, but moving out here, wow, we're small freaking fish dude), and as a dorkfest on the whole, PAX/ComicCon tends to crush it.

Alas, our only cross-reference (besides me watching games on Vassal) is Shinja, who usually likes to play in our tournaments with not necessarily Tier 1 squads (I've faced him twice I think, Cando Cannon vs Atton Cannon, and Mandos? vs Clones, we've split those matches). Besides the fact we all love Shinja and wish he'd show up more in Bellevue (he can't complain too much about the drive, I think I live closer to him then I do Bellevue) so we can all gush over his adorably cute kid ( ), we don't really have any frame of reference for other tiers of play.

We've been slowly getting people on VASSAL. Though I personally believe playing in person is different at least with regards to mid-tier play. (Psych'ing out, seeing realization in a player's eye of what you may have just done wrong, etc) Hopefully we'll catch you guys online at some point. Minis is a really social thing for us, so it never really bothered us to get onto Vassal to play games; many of the players live very close to each other, and can get games whenever.

@ Lobo: ooo I wish I could have taken that job. We are expecting somewhere around 30-60 for regionals, if we get the regular crew + portland/other areas. We probably have 26-30 Seattle area players (the pre-releases have hit that, and may get higher now that school is out), and I don't know about the rest of the areas. So yeah, we (Omnus especially) have been working on building our local group up. Usually anyone who walks into the LGS even looking at minis ends up as a regular at our tournaments.

Understandable I suppose, but that was never what was being said. And I don't remember anyone, even me, ever saying "you didn't place at Gencon" or anything about Gencon being a requirement to discuss.

What I did say, was that if you are not familiar with top tier play, then you don't understand the issue, and then, I am not going to be convinced by your opinion, so you might as well stop arguing with me. And specifically, this was responding to rude posts, generally people calling me things like a "whiner" or that I "just need to learn to play better" etc, from people who are not playing by the DCI rules, and are not affected by a ban anyways.

I have never understood the self important attitude that suggests someone should have a strong opinion on an issue that doesn't affect them. If you aren't playing DCI, then why would you care if DCI changes its rules? That's just stupid. It's like me arguing for a change in the Russian Language dictionary, even though I don't speak Russian, never intend to speak Russian, and have no knowledge of the proper way Russian is being spoken today with which to comment. It was to those people I was speaking to. That does not apply to Bellevue.

I think perhaps there is still some carryover going on from past issues that also relate to this.

Either way, I have enjoyed talking with you on here and on Vassal, so I think we are well past that anyways.

Indeed, I have enjoyed talking shop/shooting the breeze with you on Vassal and on here, and I intend to keep doing so.

As for what was intended to be said, what people thought was said, what was said...welcome to the internet. Hence why I'm so careful about trying to interpret what is said online..I used to get really mad at Dean, and then I realized...waiiit a minute...I don't think he's as serious as I think he is...and then it made a hell of a lot more sense.

You guys should come out here for PAX.

So, a couple of things really stand out from the regional results

GOWK squads are doing really well, with only one or two losses to non-GOWK. However, players are still learning to use GOWK/feel very uncomfortable with GOWK, so play mistakes (even from players who don't normally make them) seem to be dooming them. Also, players are tending to shy away from GOWK, maybe worried about GOWK hate, also unfamiliarity of the squad. Its been a month, so I'm kind of surprised that there is still so much unfamiliarity.

Also, GOWK has very, very little room for mistakes, it seems. GOWK himself can be played willy nilly, but messing up with Rex/Dash/JWM is absolutely killer.

Wow, I got mentioned a lot in this thread.

I tend to lose to the "good" players on VASSAL, and I tend to lose to the "good" players here in Washington, so I don't really know if I can say anything about relative skill. I think there's only 4 of us coming out for Gencon, so I don't know how much of a splash we'll make...

We're hoping that mentioning you will get you to come up here more often. Muhahaha...my evil plot is successful!

<ninja jumps Shinja and drags him up North>

Bah, I wish plane tickets weren't still so expensive (even for me). I think they should also come up here for PAX.

Overall GOWK is just boring to play. There are many reasons why GOWK has not shown up in the regionals even though GOWK was in the starter. when playing minis I feel there should be skill in the game not just the luck factor (aka matt vs jonny).well the jwm rex dash is just boring to play. the all melee isnt boring since melee isnt the easiest thing to play but its too low on acts for most people. the double override squad is very flexible and is the squad that is less boring to play. Alot of people dont have one of the following rex dash or r2. People dont understand how to play him I guess even though I feel he is really easy to play. You just cant run him out in the open thinking he is untouchable. The game is turning into checkers.

He is just really boring to play, if your playing GOWK or your opponent is and is rolling hot their is no skill in the game its just luck. Most people want to have fun and GOWK to me is not really fun to play with.

*IF* the counters develop appropriately, playing GOWK is going to become a lot less boring. If your games are coming down to the wire and you simply have no room for errors, especially against someone who's playing a counter and knows what they're doing, the game will become a lot more interesting.

It really all depends on whether or not GOWK is banned for GC, and how well the JA counters work out.

well we are way off topic since this is about the WSC tournament. there is a problem though there are no true counters that can beat GOWK 60% of the time. We know 33 of 40 minis from JA so the odds of getting a good counter are most likely out the window since 3 of the pieces are for the republic. I dont think the other four with be a 60% counter. The best squad is B&B and I dont even know if that can beat the double override squad. That one at best is 50%. What in JA are you saying is a counter im not seeing anything.People talk about stalling out taking out the GOWK support most of the time the GOWK squad has the lead and most GOWK games dont go to time. If I am the GOWK squad most of my games dont go to time they finish within 40-45 mins. Well maybe kol kyle kyp but that will get killed by shooters if your not really good at playing melee. So im not seeing anything at 150 since thats what gencon and regionals are.

I have a squad that I think throws a major wrench in the equation for GOWK, but I'm saving it for regionals. Other than that, I've mentioned a few different squads that I think will handle GOWK and the rest of the counters at 150. One of them, ironically, is an OR squad with Malak. Time, of course, will have to tell.

I'm not really following the Checkers analogy. I understand that this game that has near 1000 figures and variety is one of its biggest draws but even mirror matches arn't checkers.
At worst its chess with dice.

As for being fun or not. Well high scruple Tourney play isn't particulally fun a lot of the time, especially when you match up bad. Take my game against Eric. I won soley on gambit 30 points to 23. Not the most satisfying of victories but when 3 of his pieces can kill my dmg dealers in one shot you arn't left with many options, you use what advantages you can to win.
GOWK on paper looks like one hell of a fun piece to play. Knight speed, and push are some fun abilities. Perhaps you mean to say that he is boring cos its so easy to win with him?

There is a degree of skill to playing him and, as we have seen, mistakes will even cost GOWK games.

Even if GOWK were to stay around, there are methods to deal with him aside from lucking your way through a tourney without facing him. There just arn't THAT many ways to do it and none with an excellent shot at taking him out as well as the rest of the field.

GOWK v GOWK matches are still a test of skill. Positioning is immensely important. 1st to lose r2 without making a good trade probably loses.

GOWK is detrimental to the variety of the game which is IMO the biggest and best argument for his ban. However, i still feel he is on the cusp. He is probably a couple of well designed figs from being OMGWTFBBQ BAN!!! to "dudes tough as nails, this is gonna be a hard match but doable."

I started the checkers thing so here is the analogy.

I dont want the game to become Gowk vs anti-Gowk

so then the game becomes a choice of Gowk (black) vs Anti-Gowk (red)

I paid to much to have my competitive game choices made for me by one figure.

Seems like alot has been said...

First and foremost...my main goal right now is just growing the community. I don't mean Bellevue. I mean Star Wars Minis as a whole. I am encouraging crossing over venues whenever possible. I love that our group never snubs new or inexperienced players. New players get loaned minis, given minis, loaned maps and showered with tips and suggestions. New players that try hard often end up getting thier first rare pull or prize pack after a couple months. After playing MTG and D&D minis, I have seen so many people just show up and basically buy other people packs because they pay their entry few and never win. I am so glad our venue has embraced everything we have done to avoid that. I will now shut up about this because I don't want my whole post to be yammering on about these players. I would probably end up sounding like a sappy bitch because I love all the players and I am really proud of how everyone is doing : )

I am noteven going to pretend that our players have history or the lengthly experience that alot of other people have with the game. Most of our players have competitive gaming experience from different games that they played before SWM's and some have turned into great SWM players. However they lack in one area or another because they haven't played the game long enough. Nightwalker is a great example. Came from wow ccg. I stand behind the kid and say he is a great player when it comes to actually sitting down and playing a match. However his squad construction skills are mediocre at best. He takes a squad that he sees someone else play and learns it backwards and forwards. Rarely ever makes any changes, just plays the exact version he sees. He also needs more experience on different maps. If you see him playing Loda Cannon or Yobuck swap on a map he knows....the kid is damn near unstoppable. But if you saw him playing a squad he made and plays against one of those annoying players who likes to use random maps just to throw him off (I love it every time I do it : ) you might actually think he was mediocre player if that was the first time you saw him. We also have Cybit...talks about minis about 100 times more often than he actually plays : ) I love you man : )

Anyway, I think most of our great players have atleast a couple areas they need to improve upon. I personally still probably play more agressive than I need to.

I didn't ever intend to use Vikram (the previous GenCon winner that was mentioned) to make any types of claims for the area. He is a great player and helped me play better by being great competition for me. The only thing I wanted to get across was that we are a competitive DCI venue and we work very hard to be the best players we can be. The other reason Vik was specifically mentioned was he played the specific yobuck swap variant with jarjar that nightwalker then started playing. The way he played it was picked up by Nightwalker and drastically affected our local meta. This why you see alot of " OMG, no yobuck?" type of comments from the wa/bellevue players. We still probably see more changes in squads because of yobuck than because of GOWK. Almost every 150 tournament we have, has one good or great player with a yobuck squad. So the players expect it. I still honestly have more trouble consistantly beating the yobuck swap squad that our venue has enjoyed so much, than I have beating any of the GOWK squads. I am not trying to say GOWK is weak by any means. The piece easily fits into the "broken" minis category of SWM. I can even see why every who is pro-ban wants the piece banned. For me personally, I would just prefer facing down GOWK, than the massive damage pieces/combos like mara jade, or han cannon. Losing full health 100+ hp characters in 1-2 activations regularly is bad for the game in my opinion. Something like GOWK was bound to show up eventually. It defiantely could have been done better. I think if DoS and GOWK had both been 55 points, SSM blocked only ranged and GOWK got saberblock while dooku gets motf2, renewewl 1 and delfect it would have been a more reasonable way to start inputing pieces with greater defensive abilities. Still may not be the best route but wouldn;t be as crazy as what we have now. Also...GOWK and rex and R2 AD in the same faction is a bit much. I wish a GOWK had been OR or something, so we would get a different faction shaking things up.

Anyway, I feel like their has been alot of animosity within the community...which is much worse for the game than any Mini. I have squads idea that I want to play with GOWK in the meta and squads I would play with GOWK banned. I have tried very hard to to be respectful and refrain from flaming or being insulting in anything online. Being defensive is something I am probably guilty of. Honestly I don't think any of the regionals are likely to prove anything one way or another.

I really just want to keep doing my part to help grow the game and have fun. Working on Regionals and helping the players over here prepare for the event. Could easily see over 30 people and I am quite excited. Even if it just ended up being Bellevue and spokane, I think it will be a great mix of players and will help everyone get better. If we see portland, vancouver...maybe some cool Canadians making it too...who knows. After that...it will be anothe rmidnight release event and then start planning for spoCon and PAX. Thanks for the invite to help with PAX, shinja...big compliment : ) Aslong as it wasn't just because our Ladies our friends : ) Then we also have some other stuff planned for this year which will be announced soon, which should really help show what we want to do for SWM.

We may or may not have any players on par with Bill or Dean or Lobo...I really don't know. But maybe we will find out at some point. Either way it will be fun and I look forward to learning more, playing people that help me improve as a player and if anyone else is looking to meet some WA people and play some games on Vassal, I can always provide some names of a few I think could provide a challenge atleast : ) I will probably try to be on Vassal more (1 game so far) because I love meeting more players and challenging myself. I prefer face to face meets and games...but thats not really an option all the time : )

I know this is really the first year WA has really ever had a decent player base but we are growing and want to contribute. PAX 2008 didn't really have much effect on it...its much more complicated but it did start up shortly after PAX. Shinja helped alot, probably mroe than he realizes : ) If anyone is really that curious I could probably type out all the details but this post is long enough anyway.

Wow...long ass thread....going to shut up now. I don't want any respect I don't deserve. I haven't played nearly aslong as alot of you and I haven't done as much for the game but (I don't want this to come across to harsh but I know the internet sometimes makes things sound that way) I don't want to be treated like a lesser player just because I am not in IL or MO area, which is how things sometimes come across (probably also internet communication being at fault) .

I would just like to thank everyone who has done so much more the SWM community before I ever really played. Shinja, Dean, Bill, Nickname etc.

On a side not...I think Robin has only done maybe 2 Bellevue events since PAX 2008 and from what I understand...doesn't really play much. I don't think Joel or anyone else in the area really looks at pax 2008 as a "world championship". He was probably talking about Vik. If we compared how the players are doing now compared to august/september of 2008...there is a world of difference.

Also, sorry for highjacking the Wisconsin thread. I love reading these reports and I wish I could make it to one of the other regional events near here. Cali is too soon to make it and Nebraska has thier event the same weekend as ours. May try to do the cali regionals next year : )

Well said stuff, Omnus!

And I know Bill and I have said this several times, try not to take any of our criticism of your venues to harshly. We probably say things a bit more stern than we ought sometimes, but it definitely is clear that you guys are really coming along. A year really does make a world of difference in this game. Heck, I'd only been playing for 15 months when I attended my first GenCon and came in 5th place in the Swiss rounds, and only lost in the semi-final round because of one lousy dice roll. It should be really interesting to see how your Regional plays out.