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 Post subject: 200 point squad with a Jedi's biggest Fear (Revan)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:46 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Hi Everyone,

This is my first post on this website, and you can attribute the fact that I came here on Dean.

Yesterday I went to a tournament and ran a 150 point Revan squad, risque I know. I would have gone 3-1 but I didn't expect Mara Jade to double crit Revan. Either way I went 2-2 and was pretty happy. Next week at the same place with the same people there is a 200 point tournament. I was sort of called out afterwards when I mentioned I would definitely bring Revan. I have never done absolutely awesome, mostly because I don't bring competitive squads. I just play to use my favorite characters (Which are Cade and Revan). So Now this coming weekend I want to represent my brother, who has gotten first place once and wont be able to show next weekend because he is helping to keep our church clean during the tournament time. I am really hoping to get first. My brother tells me that I am really smart and strategic and that I could win every week. But I don't have quite as much faith. I am just wondering if I can get help refining a 200 point Revan based squad. I understand strategies and so on, I know how to use stuff and just need to spend more time thinking about what I do. So now with that REALLY long intro, here is my squad:

Revan
Echani Handmaiden (x3)
T3-M4
Jabba, Crime Lord
Either 3 Uggies or a HoloSid

I really want to win and am willing to learn, I hope you Minis Masters can teach me stuff.

Make me your apprentice, haha.

-Bobby

P.S. I did post this on Wizards also.

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 Post subject: Re: 200 point squad with a Jedi's biggest Fear (Revan)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:23 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Darth Jim,

I would never entirely ignore you, all advice is at least some help and should be beneficial.

Well, can you think of another beneficial commander effect or something to do instead of Jabba. Or what would be a good open map? By the way if we pick open I will have problems because I will for sure be dealing with at least one, if not multiple, Yoda on Kybuck squads this coming weekend. I will probably only have to play one, but that is still a huge challenge. By the way I don't do aggressive well, but if all the advice I get here is to be aggressive then I am entirely willing to try that out.

This might sound stupid but I don't entirely know the rules on combine fire. Care to explain them to me? And I didn't like HoloSid idea much either, sort of threw it in there as a random thought.

I am usually really smart with doors, but that game I went a little crazy, I thought it was smart to make it so all shooting lanes would be open whenever I wanted them open so I wouldn't have to use uggies to run up and open.

It is interesting how by playing with people like you and talking to you guys I learn things differently. I always had this idea of take out the beast in their squad. But now I am learning it is just as beneficial, if not more, to take out the little advantages they have here or there, or things like so.

I get quite some crap about Revan being TOO cost worthy, but I really want to make Revan a usable piece in tourneys. I also got a lot of crap about using Cade, that was before my brother got the Revan mini. But I actually pulled off a Cade/Krayt/HoloSid squad in a 150 tournament. I was proud that day.

Just for further reference. Like I said above I expect a Yoda on Kybuck squad that I might have to face, there is pretty much always a Speeder squad (or whatever that thing is, practically having a ship on the board), there is always a Durge squad, and then a women was talking about a Keldor/Mon Mathma squad. So if you know ways Revan could deal with all these that would be nice. I don't entirely fear the Keldor one because I easily took down the 150 Keldor the same lady brought.

I really appreciate the advice and help Darth Jim. Have a goodnight.

-Bobby

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 Post subject: Re: 200 point squad with a Jedi's biggest Fear (Revan)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:12 am 
Master of the Order
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Well Bobby, whether or not Revan is a tournament worthy piece really depends on your local tournament scene. On an international basis, or what you might see at a major championship-type event like GenCon, I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to win consistently with Revan. But, local venues are usually different from national/international ones, so it's sometimes hard to say for sure.

If you are certain that you're going to face at least one squad with Yoda on Kybuck, and you want to stand a chance at beating it, you need to build a squad with characters that have more HP than the Echani Handmaidens. If you're set on using the cheaper characters, then for the 23 points that they cost, I have never really felt like they had enough offensive punch to make them worth while. You're using 69 points for those 3 handmaidens. I would personally use Lando Hero of Tanaab, a Czerka Scientist, and a 3 Sith Operatives instead. You get Mobile, Twin, and Cunning +20. Along with Revan's CE, that gives them a +12 for 30 damage each shot. At least that way, if Yobuck takes out one or two of them, you're only losing 10 point pieces instead of 23 point pieces.

Jabba, like DarthJim pointed out, is a huge slow-poke. You'll find it quite difficult to keep him close enough to the rest of your pieces to make a difference. Using Revan's CE to help him move more is nice, but you only get to move him 2 squares, for a total of 6 squares in any given round. That makes it pretty tough for him to keep up with the rest of the squad, especially when there will be times where you'll want to use Revan's CE on some other piece instead.

So, if you were to drop Jabba and the 3 Handmaidens, you could use the set-up I mentioned above, Lando HoT and a Czerka, and fit in 5 Sith Operatives! With the 3 Handmaidens, you'd have a maximum damage of 240 damage, but the 5 Operatives would give you a potential 300 damage! On top of that, you're gaining 3 more activations, plus Lando who would also be able to Mobile/Twin or even Double/Twin in the right situations.

Again, if you're mostly concerned about Yobuck or Speeder squads, then again, the cheap pieces like Handmaidens or Sith Operatives might not be the best bet (especially since even with a +12 it can be tough to hit those high def pieces). Since you're set on using Revan, here are some other options you might try:

Sith Heavy Assault Droid. You can use Revan's CE to move the SHAD into position and then unload with the 4 attacks. The Shields 20 will protect it for quite a while against pieces like Yobuck or the Speeder. Revan and 1 of these still leaves you another 63 points to play with. You could use Lando HoT, a Czerka, 2 Sith Operatives, and 2 Ugos. Then the Czerka would also be giving Jolt to the SHAD, which is brutal when your opponent has to roll 4 activation saves. That would stop a Yobuck or Speeder dead in its tracks for sure.

The Felucian Warrior on Rancor can be beastly with Revan. It's Penetration 10 will help against Luke's Snowspeeder, but it's Huge size could slow it down a little bit (though Revan's CE helps to make up for that). To top it off, the Regen 10, Parry, Melee Reach 2, and decent Attack/Defense would make this a nasty anti-melee combo, especially against pieces like Yobuck. However, if people at your venue are prone to playing high-powered shooter squads (like Mandos), you might not want to run this option, as that's 140 points of your squad that have no defense against shooters.

The Sith Marauders are great pieces to pair with Revan as well. They end up with a +15 attack with Revan's CE, and you can use the movement part of his CE to put them in place for their Double Attack. Also, they have Lightsaber Deflect, which is a nice contrast to Revan's LS Block. So, against Melee pieces, you lead with Revan. Against non-Accurate shooters, you lead with the Marauders. Against Accurate shooters you stay out of LOS altogether if possible, lol.


There are really lots of possibilities, and probably what you hear from most people is that Revan is a good piece, but costs a little too much to be highly competitive. IMO, this is only partly true. The fact that he is so expensive makes it tough to build squads that synergize with him, because you don't have enough points left over to work with. Revan tries to be too many things. If he just concentrated on the CE, and had crappy stats, or had his great abilities, but without the CE, then he could have been cheaper, and probably more useable. Personally, I feel like he is worth his cost, it's just tough to build squads that utilize every aspect about him.

As it stands though, I usually see Revan as just on the outer edge of the competitive bubble. He certainly has the potential to do well. Depending on your local venue, and depending on your skill level, it should be possible to win with him.

Honestly though, the most important thing is that you have fun, and if playing Revan is what you enjoy, then by all means, have at it. The trick you gotta watch though, is that your fellow players will learn to expect that you're playing Revan, and they will build their squads in accordance with that. If you know for certain what your opponents are playing, it's a lot easier to build your own squad in order to ensure victory. If you become too predictable, you'll start losing more often.

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 Post subject: Re: 200 point squad with a Jedi's biggest Fear (Revan)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:23 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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I would try something more along these lines, as Lobo suggested.

--Revan Ops--
88 Darth Revan
23 Lando Calrissian, Hero of Taanab
20 Sith Trooper Captain
13 Czerka Scientist
13 Kel Dor Bounty Hunter
20 Sith Operative x2
10 Sith Guard x2
12 Ugnaught Demolitionist x4
(199pts. 13 activations)

And if you don't have to worry about the Lancer, then you can drop the Kel Dor and work in something more theme, or get override in there if you prefer.

The Ops and Gaurds gain Revan's +4, double, twin, mobile, and the Ops can combine that with cunning +20.

So, use Revan's CE to move 6 with an Op, MT to win init, then quad cunning +20 for a possible 120 dmg out of a 10pt piece. That is more than enough to make them a bigger threat. Early on you can mobile with them to keep them protected as needed, and finally, if you set it up correctly, you can pay for them taking out your Ops with a quad Lando Op shot in return.

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 Post subject: Re: 200 point squad with a Jedi's biggest Fear (Revan)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:55 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Everyone,

Wow! I would have never thought of those ideas. I will definitely be running that on Vassal to get use to it. I really appreciate all the help you guys. Maybe Saturday night I will be able to post that I was victorious. I do have a question, the Keldor, is that suppose to be used as a suicidal bomb? As in the case of that Speeder, or even Yoda on Kybuck so I can get 40 damage on them?

I hope you all have great nights.

-Bobby

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 Post subject: Re: 200 point squad with a Jedi's biggest Fear (Revan)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:20 am 
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Quick addition on the Combining Fire thing (and you can look up Combining Fire in the Archives if you need further help). They have to be non-melee, have LOS to the target, and must NOT have 0 damage on their stat card. For instance, Lobot cannot be used to combine fire.

As for the Kel Dor BH, it's not really a suicide, so much as it's a deterrent. If an opponent is running the IG Lancer, and they want to make a Strafe run, they have to attack every piece they pass over. So, if the Kel Dor is positioned in such a way that the Lancer is forced to pass the Kel Dor in order to get to any of your other pieces, then the Lancer will likely take 40 damage from Self Destruct just to pull off the rest of the Strafe.

With Yobuck, it's a bit tougher, because Galloping Attack would only take 20 HP off of the Kel Dor, and also, Yobuck can choose whether or not to make those attacks as he moves (it works different from Strafe, from what I just recently learned). So, it wouldn't work quite as well against Yobuck, but it could still help.

With the Snowspeeder, you're best bet for protecting your pieces is not give the Speeder anywhere easy to land and attack you. Because it has Flight, it can move past you quite easily, but if you remember your rules, even though it also has Mobile Attack, it still has to stop in a LEGAL landing space in order to make attacks. So, you can set up pieces like the Kel Dor, or other smaller things as 'screens' and sort of generally in the way so that the Snowspeeder can't land close enough to target your key pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: 200 point squad with a Jedi's biggest Fear (Revan)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:26 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Well here I am post Tourney. Here is a recap for those of you that would like to know how it went.

My first game was against a Mandalorian squad with Canderousm, Boba, Quartermaster, Another CE character, and then two scouts, that is if I remember right. I have no idea what the map is called that we played it on, but it worked out good for me. I pretty much spent the first turn setting up. Second round I wanted his guys to go right, so I made it seem like I was sending Revan left, then I sent the Keldor to the right to ploy him into coming that way. He did as expected and went right, I opened up the doors in the middle and got shots off, now yes for this turn I did not capitalize on cunning attack. But I made it so next turn in case I rolled a 1, he wouldn't be able to get shots off on my main guys without at least having them be in cover. Well I won init, moved an operative out in the open for his guys, but was able to stay within 6 of all my effects, and killed Canderous. I then used another operative to deal a bit of damage to Boba and draw Boba out to my operatives so I could corrupt with Revan. Well it eventually worked out as a win for me, and I lost only the Keldor and an uggie or two, but I won. (1-0)

My next game was extremely depressing, I played a Tier one Loda squad. The match was pretty horrible, but I do have to give my ops some credit for all dealing either 30 or 60 damage to Loda without being hit by reflect, yes that meant I rolled all those saves. But Loda survived and the game was sort of a mess, he took gambit and forced me to chase him down. I was able to get Revan in there for a triple on his Leia, jacked her up obviously. And if I remember right careful position with Lando and czerka meant I was able to take 4 shots on Han with Opp, but I didn't kill him. I lost that game. (1-1)

My third game was an annoying one. My opponent ran a trooper squad with Obi and the blue Jedi girl. Me and my opponent both tied at getting to gambit. I stayed in the middle sort of hoping he would come for me. I admit I was stupid in my positioning and thinking. He ran Obi up towards Revan, but I kept Revan back so I could give the ops the CE. Well I ended my turn moving ops into the position for shooting Obi. I began next turn, almost killed Obi, but he ran Obi away and hid him from me. And then with my Ops sort of open he got a few lucky shots off and killed one or two of them. So now I had to get some points, well I didn't he went slow and kept running his guys away from me, he had a huge fear of Revan. (1-2)

My last game isn't even worth talking about, I was just plain stupid and forget to realize that he had charging fire. So when I positioned all my characters behind a wall in such a way that not a single character of his could move 6 and shoot at me, he moved 12 and shot at me, he killed all of my operatives...ALL OF THEM! I was depressed. I used my commander and czerka to jolt some of his bigger name guys, and then would use Lando to damage them. He has a jedi run at me, so I ran interference with Keldor and he accidentally critted it, dealing 40 to himself. Well by the time they announced "Finish the round and the game is over" My game was already over, I was too far behind to salvage. The guy was a nice guy and asked if I could let him try and push Revan into the pit, I said okay and moved Revan into a spot for him to do so. Well now at this point everyone is watching because all throughout the Tourney Revan never died, (Loda game ended turn before Revan's possible death). So the Referee is watching. He pushes me and places Revan over pit, I specifically say "Rolling DA" I roll a 5 or something low like that. And then I just because I didn't care for logic said "Force point re-roll." I still rolled a low number. Well then everyone said he died, and told them no I was rolling for DA. The ref told me I was lying and that no one would spend a force point to re-roll that. Kindly enough though my opponent, who had heard me, asked me to roll the dice 3 more times, to account for all the pit spaces before I landed on a regular space. I rolled to the side as he watched, and by this time people were gone. I rolled a 19 and two other numbers above 11. And my opponent said, "Guess Revan can't die." (1-3)

I did horribly, and I attribute 2 of my losses to horrible positioning and thoughtlessness, and my loss to Loda was a suicide match any ways.
Thank you guts for squad build help, I really appreciate it. I hope you all have great nights/mornings depending on where you are from (1:25am at my place.)

-Bobby

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 Post subject: Re: 200 point squad with a Jedi's biggest Fear (Revan)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:17 am 
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Well, sounds like, at the very least, you learned some good things from your games. Always gotta watch things like Charging Fire and such.

And sounds like your group needs to re-study the rules on Force Push and pits. You don't keep moving over pit squares and making a save for each square. Your character stops as soon as you reach the first pit. You make 1 save, and 1 save only. If you fail the save, obviously you're dead. But if you make the save, then your piece is placed in the closest legal space (probably the square you got pushed from), and then you're done. No more movement, no more pit saves.

In the future, against a piece like Loda, your best bet may be to just base him and let Revan tear him apart. Loda is pretty weak in terms of melee offense/defense, as he has to deal with Revan's Lightsaber Duelist. Of course, I'm guessing that Loda was backed up by Han Smuggler/Scoundrel, which could definitely be a problem for Revan. Sounds like you did it about the best you can, and like we were saying before: Revan is a decent piece, but he's not usually considered Tier 1, which puts you at a disadvantage against squads like the one you described.

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 Post subject: Re: 200 point squad with a Jedi's biggest Fear (Revan)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:42 am 
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Cool deal.

A suggestion for the Loda game, as it sounds like you already know what went wrong in the others.

A good strategy would have been to base Loda asap with revan (and if you can, corrupt him or leia on the way in). Then use your intuition movement, and shooters to base Han as soon as you base loda. The Keldor basing Han would have annoyed him enough to take him down. Its one of those cases where you just need to hit all of their big pieces at once in different ways (the opposite of the more common strategy of hitting one at a time).

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 Post subject: Re: 200 point squad with a Jedi's biggest Fear (Revan)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:50 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Thank you Billiv,

At least now I know what to do next time. But out next tourney is 150, so I will be doing something different. Thank you all for the help, I greatly appreciated it.

-Bobby

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 Post subject: Re: 200 point squad with a Jedi's biggest Fear (Revan)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:46 pm 
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No worries, I wasn't really posting to help you specifically for this squad anyways.

The best way to improve your game is to analyze what you did right or wrong, same with your opponent after wards. I can already tell you learned a lot from this experience. You went about it in the best of ways. If I can lay out the process generally it would look like:

1. Idea for a squad I want to run

2. Think about the support options carefully

3. Analyze the local meta of what I might need to counter

4. Decide on a build and run it

5. Write up the report after wards about the results.

6. Think about what I could have done differently to get a different result (or at least better odds of a different result).

7. Back to #1 :)

I can already tell from your report that you have learned from this experience and I feel like I was able to help you in it. I look forward to more such exchanges, and by all means, I welcome any help or suggestions you can offer me in return!

Now let's start that 150 talk :)

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