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 Post subject: Hologram Veers and Cover
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:52 am 
Black Sun Thug
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Ok, I'm asking this for a friend...

Can you use Hologram Veers for Fire Support Mission against an opponent with cover that has super stealth from Nom Anor?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:09 am 
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Yes, as the effects of Stealth (which include CE's that trigger off of Stealth) are ignored in the targetting.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:32 am 
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Can you point me to where I can look for this ruling? Errata, FAQ, rulebook, etc? He lost a tourney because they said he couldn't use Fire Support since they had cover with super stealth, so he'd like to show them before the next tourney.

BTW, thanks for the quick answer.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:36 am 
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It says it right on the card. :(

The card clearly says "ignoring cover".

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:58 am 
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heh heh...that was his argument too, but the two guys playing the Nor Anor super stealth squads convinced the group that Veers couldn't target them because of the stealth. He and I both thought that since the cover was ignored, the stealth went bye bye too.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:12 am 
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Skywalker2B wrote:
heh heh...that was his argument too, but the two guys playing the Nor Anor super stealth squads convinced the group that Veers couldn't target them because of the stealth. He and I both thought that since the cover was ignored, the stealth went bye bye too.


And quite simply, if you dont have cover, you dont activate stealth, which then doesnt activate the CE.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:28 am 
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Skywalker2B wrote:
heh heh...that was his argument too, but the two guys playing the Nor Anor super stealth squads convinced the group that Veers couldn't target them because of the stealth. He and I both thought that since the cover was ignored, the stealth went bye bye too.


Simple problem of people not understanding the order of how things are determined in the game.

Stealth is only active if you have cover. Heck, Nom Anor's CE even specifically says 'characters...that have cover'. Well, obviously, if Mission Fire Support (or Vader's Lightsaber Throw 5 as well) says 'ignore cover' then can the target have cover? No. Well, if they don't have cover, is Nom's CE in effect? No. If Nom's CE is not in effect, can they still benefit from regular Stealth? No, because again, they don't have cover, and cover is required to trigger the rest of the Stealth ability.

Shame on people for reading things the way they want to just so it will benefit them. :(

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Last edited by LoboStele on Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:35 am 
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Thanks, guys. I appreciate the responses.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:00 pm 
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Quote:
Shame on people for reading things the way they want to just so it will benefit them.


I was at this tournament and I have to come to the defense of the guys with the Super Stealth armies. We did read the card a number of times and there were two ways to interpret what it said. Over half of the group understood this as meaning the figure using Fire Support Mission had Accurate Shot. As we have all come to learn Accurate Shot does not erase Super Stealth. So it stood to reason that this ability, while they could target any character they could see, (because of Accurate Shot) they could not see anyone with Super Stealth(not adjacent). Since more thought this ability could not target Super Stealth, and the judge did not have a definiate ruling, we went with the majority.

If you look at it from the Super Stealth side, then you could argue that the guy with Veers was trying to read things the way he wanted in order to benefit himself.

Needless to say, Veers Hologram is a commanding piece to have and I can't wait to dig one up to put in my collection.

P.S. Yes, I did have one of the Super Stealth armies(and mine wasn't Nom, it was Bacara :? ).


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:10 pm 
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I get what your saying Jedi_masterJ.

But plain and simple, if a ability says "ignore cover" then stealth is invalid to that ability.

Stealth requires cover,
super stealth requires stealth.

without cover (which is being ignored in this instance) stealth can not trigger.

In this instance, think of "ignore cover" as meaning "for this ability cover doesn't exist)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:56 pm 
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Hey! Welcome aboard the site, J! Don't worry, it wasn't the first time that someone lost a tourney at GV because someone misinterpreted an ability/rule (remember Mike won a couple games with MTB because he thought, and no one challenged him until I said something, that it was "may" versus "must").

See ya tomorrow night for some SWM action! :) I'm sure I'll get my rearend handed to me, but I'm looking forward to try a couple fun squads.

Thanks again everyone for clearing this up for us.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:00 pm 
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Skywalker2B wrote:
Hey! Welcome aboard the site, J! Don't worry, it wasn't the first time that someone lost a tourney at GV because someone misinterpreted an ability/rule (remember Mike won a couple games with MTB because he thought, and no one challenged him until I said something, that it was "may" versus "must").


This is a great point. Dont take anything posted online about rules issues as slights against you or your players. I always remind people of Gencon 06 when Rob (guy who designs the game) made an incorrect ruling that cost my friend Matt a chance at 1st (took 3rd instead).

Use it as a learning point, and teach the rest of your gamers the right interpretation when you go back. That way, everyone learns. No one should be bitter about incorrect rulings, they happen all the time.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:50 am 
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The other trick to remember with the difference between Accurate and Fire Support Mission, is that Accurate does not 'ignore cover' it just allows you to attack someone even if they have cover, and are not the closest.

Trust me, even last night at my LGS I'm standing there telling everybody else exactly the way things have been ruled, and they are telling me that it's different. It didn't make a difference in my game, so I let it go. But you just go with what the judge rules, make the best of it, and then come online during the week and print out the discussions where NickName (or somebody else, though NickName is the final authority) says exactly how the rule is supposed to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Hologram Veers and Cover
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:17 am 
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Yeah, I went back and read the difference between Accurate Shot(which allows you to target people even in cover) and Fire Support Mission which, in essence, removes cover.

Thanx


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