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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:19 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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urbanjedi wrote:
Here are some of my thoughts on what is being discussed

1. Force Ghosts Living

Leave them living. The problem is a small loophole that works for exactly one squad (tier 2) which also happens to be good vs a squad with no melee defense (typically shooters) so it helps provide balance to the meta. If it becomes more of an issue later it can always be revisited.


Yeah I would worry about this one to much


Quote:
2. Boba

Leave him as is for now and see what happens. Possible solutions IMO would be to drop GMA or to drop from triple to double. He does have the issue that the klat ass had where he basically trumps all other pieces in the price range, so maybe he should be on the short list and if he is a problem next regional season get changed at that time.


I sort of agree here. I think he suffers from what I call Mace LOTLS syndrome. Everyone complained he is too good. Where is he now?


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3. Commando Droid Officer

Limit the Cannon shots to WOTC commando Droids and he is fine. could change everything to WOTC commando droids but the Cannon shot is the big thing.


Make both CEs followers and I think it will be ok.

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4. NeoCrusader OFficer

Should probably be Neo Crusader Followers just to avoid the potential of the CDO plus I think it follows actual design intent more than letting them boost everyone.


+1


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5. Imp Governor

Make the CE for followers only and it should fix the problem. Cost up a couple if really, really worried about it, but if it were just followers he becomes a slightly better sly moore (or Monk) which is really what his intent was.


Will have to look into this one.

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6. Poggle

Nothing. Or at most increas cost by a few (to 15 max). At 15 he would be an ugo boss that gives SD20 to drones. Decent but not great. If he were to drop to SD10, he would see play less than the ugo boss.


Big plus one here. I think this squad building option should still be out there. That was the entire point of the piece, making drones playable. Plus all the Genosisans designed after Poggle in mind have Poggles price and SD10 figured into there cost. At least a little anyway.

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7. Klat assassin

Cost to somewhere between 17-20. I would personally prefer 17 so he could be a decent reinforcement option and still get another activation.


I like him at 17. Allows to have one and an ugy that Lobot can bring in.


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8. Mouse Droids

Add erratta that gives them TINY (or whatever you want to call it) and define it in the glossary. Tiny characters don't block movement. This way melee can still use them as a shield to get accross the board, but shooters can't make the mouse wall effects of old.


Already talked about this one

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9. Sith Battle MEditation

Make it so it is usable only once per turn. So you could use it on the aing-ti and on the regular turn, but you couldn't use it 5 or 6 times per round like you can now.


Yep +1


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10. Panaka
Lose Twin, add Double on the CE.


Yeah tweaking the CE is the only thing that needs fixed on him.

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11. Vehicles
All are fine at this point I think.


Agree - I don't see many other iconic vehicles out there to be made, but Rebels and movies could change that. there are only one or two that might be a problem anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:28 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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RaginRancor wrote:

Bill, geez! wasn't trying to piss anyone off or make threats.
I'm just stating facts, based on conversations I've had.
I thought calm debate was allowed on Gamers.
I really don't understand the anger.
sorry, but I'm not trying to win friends, but trying to help the game evolve.


Probably jumped the gun on that one. I just don't want the bloomilk non-sense and trolling to follow us back over here.

Reality is, people aren't quitting the game over mice. People quit for lots of reasons, its insane to claim it would be over us not nerfing the mice enough.

What people claim and what they actually do are two different things. For example, there's that one bloomilk poser who told us in 2009 his group had died, then claimed again two years later that they were all going to quit over Mace, then claimed it again over like 3 other pieces. All after they already supposedly quit. He reportedly plays with about 2-3 people and they play their own version of the game. I'm done with people like that. Either be honest and try to help, or you are just trolling, and we don't need trolls.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:38 am 
Hall of Fame
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urbanjedi wrote:
Here are some of my thoughts on what is being discussed

1. Force Ghosts Living

Leave them living. The problem is a small loophole that works for exactly one squad (tier 2) which also happens to be good vs a squad with no melee defense (typically shooters) so it helps provide balance to the meta. If it becomes more of an issue later it can always be revisited.


Disagree with this. This effects more than just 1 squad that you won a regional with. Changing this IMO would solve other issues. Ghosts haunting Ghosts, and massive force points for someone to spend. This would solve the SBM issue, and is simpler.


Quote:
2. Boba

Leave him as is for now and see what happens. Possible solutions IMO would be to drop GMA or to drop from triple to double. He does have the issue that the klat ass had where he basically trumps all other pieces in the price range, so maybe he should be on the short list and if he is a problem next regional season get changed at that time.


Les asked where Mace was? In the top 8 still. Boba, I do think is a tad undercosted but not to a point where he should be discussed here.


Quote:
3. Commando Droid Officer

Limit the Cannon shots to WOTC commando Droids and he is fine. could change everything to WOTC commando droids but the Cannon shot is the big thing.


+1

Quote:
4. NeoCrusader OFficer

Should probably be Neo Crusader Followers just to avoid the potential of the CDO plus I think it follows actual design intent more than letting them boost everyone.


+1


Quote:
5. Imp Governor

Make the CE for followers only and it should fix the problem. Cost up a couple if really, really worried about it, but if it were just followers he becomes a slightly better sly moore (or Monk) which is really what his intent was.


As I said on Facebook, change the CE and Instill Fear to followers.

Quote:
6. Poggle

Nothing. Or at most increas cost by a few (to 15 max). At 15 he would be an ugo boss that gives SD20 to drones. Decent but not great. If he were to drop to SD10, he would see play less than the ugo boss.


Increase cost to at least 16. He gives SD 20 so he should cost more than the Uggy Boss. If the intent of the piece was to give the option to squad building, fine, but that doesn't mean that it needs to be T1.

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7. Klat assassin

Cost to somewhere between 17-20. I would personally prefer 17 so he could be a decent reinforcement option and still get another activation.


I like him at 18.


Quote:
8. Mouse Droids

Add erratta that gives them TINY (or whatever you want to call it) and define it in the glossary. Tiny characters don't block movement. This way melee can still use them as a shield to get accross the board, but shooters can't make the mouse wall effects of old.


Sure, I guess

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9. Sith Battle MEditation

Make it so it is usable only once per turn. So you could use it on the aing-ti and on the regular turn, but you couldn't use it 5 or 6 times per round like you can now.


No. This is the problem of Ghosts being Living and being able to haunt each other.


Quote:
10. Panaka
Lose Twin, add Double on the CE.


Yeah tweaking the CE is the only thing that needs fixed on him.

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11. Vehicles
All are fine at this point I think.


Ughh. Vehicles were the worst idea ever IMO. I don't like massive Strafe with massive HP. I trust the committee though on this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:31 pm 
Major Tierce
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umm, the ghosts can haunt each other even if they weren't living. There is nothing in force ghost that requires living. All it requires is a unique ally with a force rating. That is how you could always haunt Proxy if you really wanted to back in the WOTC days.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:41 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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sthlrd2 wrote:
Quote:
9. Sith Battle MEditation

Make it so it is usable only once per turn. So you could use it on the aing-ti and on the regular turn, but you couldn't use it 5 or 6 times per round like you can now.


No. This is the problem of Ghosts being Living and being able to haunt each other.


I think changing SBM to not allow pit movement is the way to go.

I also don't think it's something that needs to be nerfed.

In order to use SBM 5 or 6 times in a round, it takes 18 or 21 Force points. Even with an effective Force Renewal 4 (Exar + Nadd + Caedus) and a dead Vergere, that's 3 or 4 rounds of charging up force. 30 or 40 free gambit points to the opponent. And if you do spend them all at once, Caedus is vulnerable... sitting there with no Force.

There are multiple counters...
* Pop a ghost. When they're chained, if one dies they both die.
* Ysalamiri
* Overwhelming force-type abilities can chew through the Bodyguard. If Barriss dies before all the SBM fun, the squad is pretty much toast.
* Force Defense/Force Absorb
* Split up the squad. This is what Trever did in the quarterfinals. I spent Force points moving GOWK around the Mines. Mace and Boba were nowhere to be found. They came in later and Caedus was less dangerous because he had fewer Force points. That game was very close... wound up something like 210-180.
* Self-Destruct, Death Shots... these kill Barriss before she can do too much damage.

If SBM can only be used once per turn, my GenCon squad becomes Tier 2 at best.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:29 am 
Master of the Order
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What if SBM couldn't be used during Aing Ti. What's max number of SBMs in a round then?


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:13 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
What if SBM couldn't be used during Aing Ti. What's max number of SBMs in a round then?


I really like Aing Ti as a counter to init control like MTB and Master Tactician. I'd be very reluctant to limit the top of round power Caedus has.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:47 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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IMO the only issue with SBM is moving into pits. It was a poor ruling (that's not a judgment of the person making rulings). It doesn't fit the flavor of the ability, and the wording of the movement allows for a different interpretation.

In terms of game balance, this is the only issue. SBM isn't overpowered, it's just slightly unfair with the auto-kill ability, which isn't in line with what the ability was supposed to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:26 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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billiv15 wrote:
IMO the only issue with SBM is moving into pits. It was a poor ruling (that's not a judgment of the person making rulings). It doesn't fit the flavor of the ability, and the wording of the movement allows for a different interpretation.

In terms of game balance, this is the only issue. SBM isn't overpowered, it's just slightly unfair with the auto-kill ability, which isn't in line with what the ability was supposed to do.


I agree with your conclusion but disagree that the ruling was poor (bolded above). Involuntary movement is involuntary movement and SBM was ruled consistent with all other involuntary movement. Creating two different types would be another complication added to the rules system. If SBM can't move people into pits, that should be a glossary addition for that ability, not a new game rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:00 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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FlyingArrow wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
IMO the only issue with SBM is moving into pits. It was a poor ruling (that's not a judgment of the person making rulings). It doesn't fit the flavor of the ability, and the wording of the movement allows for a different interpretation.

In terms of game balance, this is the only issue. SBM isn't overpowered, it's just slightly unfair with the auto-kill ability, which isn't in line with what the ability was supposed to do.


I agree with your conclusion but disagree that the ruling was poor (bolded above). Involuntary movement is involuntary movement and SBM was ruled consistent with all other involuntary movement. Creating two different types would be another complication added to the rules system. If SBM can't move people into pits, that should be a glossary addition for that ability, not a new game rule.
That's what we've been saying from the start. To be utterly and obnoxiously clear:

We do NOT want to see a new game rule for involuntary movement. We recognize the needless headaches this would cause.
We DO want to see a glossary addition for the Sith Battle Manipulation force power.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:18 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:53 pm 
Intelligence Operative
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First off I think Poggle is fine as is with the rule change. The Vong have a much better 3 point or 4 point option with super stealth and self destruct. Increasing his cost makes him unplayable. Also ugis are way more useful then weak drones that cost 3.

Next when it comes to reserves on San and Ozzel, with Aves, Bastilla, Black Ops, hive mind and no doubt more on the way, their commander effects can be stopped and at that point they are useless. Having reserves that is a 5% chance of happening isn't a big deal in my book. By that logic we should take reserves off of any good piece like Mon Mothma, Yoda Hero of Geonosis, prefect Da'Gara and Lobot. Reserve pieces still count for points, are only 20 points worth, and start back in the starting area typically away from the fight. Having reserves on a few pieces to give them something else to do is a fun and necessary thing for the game in my opinion. And why is there so much hate for reserves? Reserve focuses teams have never won a regional to my knowledge and with the time limit of an hour, slow players and just plain building your team based on dice rolls. They probably never will. I am very against taking reserves off pieces or disallowing them for competing games. And the thought that we can hurt the other reserve pieces by not allowing them in the same squad because they aren't as good and who cares is plain madness. Why hurt the second weakest play style out there next to huges? Why not only allow one shooter per squad, or one commander effect per squad, or other things like that? Because it's crazy.

I think mouse droids are fine as is with the rapport change as it's silly game wise that most things would block other characters, the natural ones being any small character. But that is for the simplicity of the game. You will always have someone who wants to spam activations and that is fine, because they are easy points, same with mice walls when you bring in any of the following:
Blaster barrag
Rolling attacks
Rolling fire
Strafe
Galloping attack
Spinning Blade Attack
Furious Razor bug assualt
Chain Lightning
Force burst
Cleave/rolling cleave
Furious Burst
Unleash the force
Force repulse
Frag Grenades assault
Painful Screech
War Throat

Which every single faction has access to one or more of those.

Buzz droids are great to shut down vehicles but probably be more conservative about big hp strafers in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:24 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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I agree with just about all of the proposed changes and agree that there is more than just one problem with the mice. I tend to favor the defense drop to th14-16 range as I do feel that it then becomes more beneficial in most instances to go with rodians or other cheap fodder that can help out offensively. As far as using them to provide a wall of cover that you have to kill before targeting other figures, I feel like the defense drop helps that as well because in my experience it is the high defense that made that such a good tactic in the first place and dropping it 4-6 points means those cover screens aren't as likely to last multiple rounds anymore, which I feel is fair to both sides, you can still chose to use mice/rodians to protect aa big piece in a key situation, but let's the opponent have a chance to smash through before getting decimated as well.


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