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 Post subject: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:42 pm 
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There's been a lot of talk about how Boba is so good that he displaces every other shooter in his point range. Do you think this is true?

I generally think Boba is only super good in factions where he gets a damage boost. So that's mostly Fringe, Imperial, and Old Republic (which noone's really tried in competitive play, as far as I know). I guess he's probably pretty decent in Sith as well, since they don't have many big shooters in that range, and he can get the damage boost from Bandon up close. Since he's a strong self contained shooter he's also as good as any support shooter in Vong.

Let's look at the other factions:

New Republic
Would you take him over Han Solo, Galactic Hero in Solo Charge? Personally I think that Disruptive plus Never Tell Me The Odds is worth it over some extra survivability and more attacking flexibility - Boba has slightly higher attack, triple and can get to his 60 damage without attacking unactivated pieces. But I'd take Han's tech every time.

Rebels
I really like the new Kanan Jarrus, and I think his synergies with Princess Leia make him a better option in Rebels than Boba.

Mandos
I'd take Mando the Vindicated most of the time in Mando builds. You can make a Neo-Crusader cannon with Boba, but you need to spend extra on Mirta Gev, and Vindicated's beef and 30 base damage are awesome.

Republic
A couple of people ran Boba in Republic at GenCon, and stated that they would have preferred to run a pair of Republic Commandos or Dash with General Skywalker.

Seps
I can't see any reason to take him here in a competitive squad. I'd rather play some BXs for accurate, or even Boba Merc doing 120 with Twin with a Spotter giving him ranged defense.


I think that if I was costing Boba from scratch, I'd probably go 55 or higher, and he's the premier shooter in his range. But I don't think that he's so good that he displaces every other shooter from his price range.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:14 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Good analysis, but is Embo done?


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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:21 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Good analysis, but is Embo done?


Embo's a valid alternative for Boba in a Fringe squad; I think you'd be unlikely to run both in the same squad, but it's certainly not impossible. They're kind of similar - one has accurate, one's a deep striker. I'd probably argue that Boba is the better option - his damage output is more flexible (can attack three different things), and he can do his damage from a safe place. But Embo is still a great piece.

I'd still look at Cad over Boba for Imperials in a rock meta as well, but I know people disagree with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:45 pm 
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I agree with your analysis. In NR, his damage output is the same as Han's with Cunning; you get some more flexibility since Boba has 3 attacks and you get a little more survivability, but I agree that NTMTO and Disruptive are worth more.

Rebels really depend on their own brand of synergy to do well, and Boba doesn't quite fit. He isn't a great cannon recipient, and past that Rebels generally play best with other Rebels. They've never used Fringer attackers much, and I don't think Boba changes that.

He could do well in Seps if Whorm entered the top tier again, but I agree that a vehicle or BX droids would generally be better.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:20 pm 
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TheHutts wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Good analysis, but is Embo done?


Embo's a valid alternative for Boba in a Fringe squad; I think you'd be unlikely to run both in the same squad, but it's certainly not impossible. They're kind of similar - one has accurate, one's a deep striker. I'd probably argue that Boba is the better option - his damage output is more flexible (can attack three different things), and he can do his damage from a safe place. But Embo is still a great piece.

I'd still look at Cad over Boba for Imperials in a rock meta as well, but I know people disagree with that.


I think your point of taking Cad over Boba in a rock meta is very true. You get more dmg and more shots, plain and simple. The reason I think Boba was so popular this year was because he's great at taking out commanders and tech since he has Accurate Shot. Just currious but did anyone consider bringing in Figrin Dian in their reinforcements? He seems like a nice little counter to Boba sniping commanders with his Draw Fire and Evade built in. I always have him in my reinforcements box in case some one has Accurate shot, because I love the combo of Draw Fire and Evade....and his distraction helps to.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:07 pm 
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I have to say I agree with your overall assessment. Maybe I will dig up his design thread in a few to take a look at the renditions he went through because in my mind I think there were several.

Not sure what Echo is talking about with Whorm and Seps. He has single shot blaster so no twin for him.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:39 pm 
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obikenobi1 wrote:
Just currious but did anyone consider bringing in Figrin Dian in their reinforcements?


I've definitely thought about it. In a tournament I still might go for the more reliable option of a bodyguard, but Figrin has the potential to negate a lot more damage overall.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:39 pm 
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TheHutts wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Good analysis, but is Embo done?


Embo's a valid alternative for Boba in a Fringe squad; I think you'd be unlikely to run both in the same squad, but it's certainly not impossible. They're kind of similar - one has accurate, one's a deep striker. I'd probably argue that Boba is the better option - his damage output is more flexible (can attack three different things), and he can do his damage from a safe place. But Embo is still a great piece.

I'd still look at Cad over Boba for Imperials in a rock meta as well, but I know people disagree with that.


I don't know about the rest of the people running fringe squads, but Embo is the cornerstone piece for me. (After Talon, of course.) If I could only take one, I'd take Embo in a heartbeat. While it is true that Boba...or Cad, for that matter...are the best at what they do, there are still pieces that can do at least part of that job. No one can do what Embo does: Move 8 with Talon's CE, then move 16 and attack for 70, paying no heed to characters along the way. with dr10 he can take a pounding. In my opinion, Talon squads are much better with that 24 square arm Embo gives them. Talon's ce is wasted if you're just going to sit back and trade shots. To me, Embo is as important to the fringe Talon squad as R2 is to the Republic.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:42 pm 
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TheHutts wrote:
I'd still look at Cad over Boba for Imperials in a rock meta as well, but I know people disagree with that.


I'd agree with that. Were it not for the proliferation of mice in this meta I would have run him in my Imperial squad at GenCon this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:44 pm 
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obikenobi1 wrote:
Just currious but did anyone consider bringing in Figrin Dian in their reinforcements? He seems like a nice little counter to Boba sniping commanders with his Draw Fire and Evade built in. I always have him in my reinforcements box in case some one has Accurate shot, because I love the combo of Draw Fire and Evade....and his distraction helps to.
TJ used the Sith Juggernaut (obviously more expensive!) to a similar effect: Soresu Style and Draw Fire...that is a very strong combo against an accurate shooter. If I had played Lobot (which I didn't, hurray!), I certainly would've pulled Figrin out a couple of times.

As for the Embo/Boba question, I can see it going either way. I'd love to hear DarthJim weigh in on this discussion, since he uses Embo so much with Talon Karrde. Embo putting 70dmg on (likely) 2 key pieces before dying is huge. Boba doesn't work that way. Personally, I think that the 2 pieces are different enough that neither displaces the other. If Mira wasn't so solid with Talon (+18 for 30 Twin) then I'd want to run Boba/Embo/Talon as a base in a competitive squad.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Jim! And voila, I am not surprised with his comments!

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:51 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Ninja'd by Jim!


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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:55 pm 
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Heck, I've been thinking of an Imperial squad trying to utilize mid-round swapping with Embo. He can run 16 and hit for 50-70, then swap in fodder. Thought at first I'd try this concept with double swap after GenCon was over, but I'm going to look at single swap too.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:56 am 
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Not sure what Echo is talking about with Whorm and Seps. He has single shot blaster so no twin for him.


You know, I made that post from my phone and immediately afterward thought "Wait, does he have single shot blaster? I should check and edit my post if he does." Then I just forgot about it. But yeah, ignore that part: I think there are better options than him in Fringe basically always.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:59 am 
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TheHutts wrote:
obikenobi1 wrote:
Just currious but did anyone consider bringing in Figrin Dian in their reinforcements?


I've definitely thought about it. In a tournament I still might go for the more reliable option of a bodyguard, but Figrin has the potential to negate a lot more damage overall.


I think Greentime might have played him at GenCon, along with JarJar. Both with draw fire and then ways to handle shots taken at them, they were his anti-Accurate Shot package.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:22 am 
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Here was my experience with Boba in Republic. I had a feeling heading in, that I'd miss Skywalker and Dash (actually was nearly certain). But I had to check out Boba to have any idea what we might need to do with him this fall. Now, I made some of the usual minor mistakes, but as you all know, I can overcome that in my thought processes and play out the game differently that outcomes aren't as important as what I see.

Game 1 - vs ATM with double swap Boba standard build. I had to make a choice, send yoda/swap/boba after Boba or trade Boba for Thrawn. In my head I calculated 90 damage to Boba (forgot no momentum on Yoda) so I chose Boba. You see this is how yoda works, any piece you can get to 20, is dead next round. And since it would take both Boba attacking my Boba, and a dominated Boba going again, or init win to kill mine, I knew his Boba would have to stay right where he was.

I ended up losing because I couldn't get that last 10 damage off. With Skybuck, easy peasy. Go right for Boba with Yoda, pop that 30, let Yoda sit (90 damage max back at you) or they swap Boba away safely and don't attack you. With both builds, you can also do the first hit, then swap away, but you risk losing your Panaka or Mas to a deep strike. After Boba goes, swap in Dash, take the AoO momentum quad (no opportunist if they dominated Boba), good chance to kill, but almost certain to get him to 10 hps and that's game over.

Alternately, you can kill Thrawn/Mas right out of the gate. This is what I should have done with Bobabuck. Ultimately though, Skywalker 1, Boba 0.

Second game was a yoda squad against Greentime with Jar Jar, Rex and so forth. I made a silly mistake here leaving my Boba vulnerable after killing his Rex, thinking he'd live, etc. So Boba didn't do much more than kill Rex, and the game ended up in a very odd way as we screwed up the scoring and I ended up conceeding the win after realizing I was trying to collect gambit with R2 lol. Again though, Skybuck dominates that match, Boba not so much. Skywalker 2 Boba 0.

Third round I played Lou with the super tank Mace squad. Worst match up out there for any buck squad. By now I'm already realizing the extreme limitation of a 2 attacker swap squad and wishing for a 3rd. Also needed direct damage, so I made finally my best choice of using Blizz (which I then used in the next two games as well). The third attacker (since Yoda isn't great at putting out damage on bigger pieces) really makes a difference. In Lou's game, I killed his Yoda, isolated him down to Mace and GOWK only, but one round had to make a choice. If I lost init, I could lose either Yoda or Blizz, could save only one. I chose poorly, and swapped Yoda out. Lost init Blizz died, and I quickly realized that was a poor choice. Had I saved Blizz, I could have continually picked away at GOWK each round. In this game, It was a tie between value of Boba or Dash. Dash gets one more shot, but lower attack (even though I can ensure opp in this one). Mace finished with about 20 hps left from my Boba pounding him from all over the map, Dash would have done similar damage and it would have been up to Skywalker to finish him. Had I played Blizz better, I think I'd give slight edge to Boba here, but then I remembered, hey, I have lobot in Skybuck, I could have Blizz there too!!!! Skybuck 3, Boba - 0.

Next two rounds, I brought Blizz, was right choice both times. He was more valuable at times than Boba (although I set up a first round missle on 6 of Laura's pieces, only to watch here make all 6 saves!!!!)

Which taught me a key factor or rather reinforced what I already knew. Yoda needs two attackers to back him up. And Skywalker just synergizes so well with both Yoda and Dash that its the superior choice. Boba simply isn't good enough without a damage boost.

Skybuck is a far superior squad to Bobabuck.

In terms of abilities, I almost never used anything other than attacking. Reason why is simple. With Yodabuck (same in Imp swap) you outactivate and swap late. With yoda you do it by clearing their acts, with Imps its using Ozel. Same principle. Which makes wrist cable useless. With swap, you almost never can or want to use the swap ability. I used wrist cable once (was a rather meaningless move) and never once even attempted the swap positions. I heard the same from IMP players. Those are good in other factions where he doesn't have a SWAP CE.

Short story, I'd have been better going with Cad Bane (because Mice walls are mocked by Yoda). And ultimately, far better going with my now 6 year old standard WotC only squad (plus the two-three reinforcement pieces all from the Cantina Brawl set + Blizz).

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:29 am 
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Boba is only 3 points more than GenSky. Why not take Dash and Boba with Yobuck?


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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:38 am 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Boba is only 3 points more than GenSky. Why not take Dash and Boba with Yobuck?


Dash isn't that great without GenSky. you get to a +10 attack for 80 dmg and that is it. With GenSky you get to a +14 and can do 120dmg. If you don't have General Skywalker, pretty much don't even bother running Dash. It'd be better to run Mira of Narshada over Dash in that situation where you want to run Boba and Yobuck also.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:55 am 
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Okay, that's fine. The point is that he said he needed a 3rd attacker. Is Marn and the MTB engine all that essential in this squad? Looking at the options at 28 and below, there are multiple options you could take as a 3rd attacker instead of Marn+MTB. Many of these really want an extra +4 Attack, though.

Dash
Mira (especially good in that she covers door control needs, too)
Ferus Olin
Elite Sev
Wookiee Thug
Rakghoul Warrior
Zann Consortium Defiler (does Blizz's job of auto-dmg and is also door control)
Foul Moudama (not a great attacker, but of course is another great movement breaker)
Blizz (you could mainline him)

--Bobabuck--
51 Yoda on Kybuck
50 Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
27 Lobot
23 Captain Panaka
21 Marn Hierogryph
10 Defel Pirate
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda

Preferred Reinforcements:
(Lobot) 8 Muun Tactics Broker
(Lobot) 3 Mouse Droid
(Lobot) 9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3
(Marn Hierogryph) 4 Gran Raider
(Marn Hierogryph) 6 Rodian Brute x2

(199pts. 16 activations)


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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:15 pm 
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Well I was also testing Marn/Lobot. There's reasons for that beyond quality of the squad itself, but the idea was simple, prevent some of the nasty combos with reinforcements. I actually only brought the MTB once. Ended up using a variety of other things. Mainly, because opposing Marn/Lobot just about every round meant I'd lose either my MTB or my activations.

So in long term, the squad would be better with just Marn or just Lobot, and adding a third attacker. But if you look at the options, Blizz was just as good as about anything else I can take, and none of the combos work as well as Skybuck.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you Boba in a squad?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:28 am 
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What a calm, reasoned discussion... It feels really weird...

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