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 Post subject: Inside the minds of the design team - Garm Bel Iblis, RT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:55 am 
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ower Level in pre-design phase - 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)* 7-8

LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:38 am
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Garm
NR
30-35?
Hp 90
DEF 21
ATK +7
20
Unique
Disciplined Leader (This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed)
Idealistic – Squad cannot contain characters from the Rebel Faction
Tactician +8(Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1)
Target at will – Characters may target allied characters with a lower point value. The attacking character gets a -4 attack.
Traps (Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense)

CE – At the end of your opponents phase, you may move one character two squares.
Non-unique followers gain greater mobile attack
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:45 am
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Quote:
Target at will – Characters may target allied characters with a lower point value. The attacking character gets a -4 attack.


I don't understand what this is supposed to do.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:18 am
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So currently you cannot target your characters. Garm specifically gave orders when battling the vong to shoot the by standards that were in between his force and the vong. Vong were basically used them as shields.

I mainly want this to be used with abilities that replaced attacks. Flamethrower, grenades, etc. you get to target your wn guy and damage the enemies along with it. I thought about making regular attacks against guys with self destruct, but I am not sure that is the best idea. I move my guy up and soot him and you take 30-40 damage. However, you would get the points. Probably best if it was just replace attack abilities.

Does any of that make sense?
If we did think it was ok to actually attack your own guy then I think the attacker should get -4 to his roll. Again in the scenario above when Garm gave the order many people were not happy about it. Maybe it has a save attached to the entire thing. I don't know.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:20 am
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Tried to clean it up a bit.

Quote:
Target at will – Allied characters may target another allied characters, save 11, with a lower cost. The attacking character gets a -4 attack.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:45 am
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Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the explanation, I'll look into it.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:57 am
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Han shoots Leia, uses her CE to make sure he passes the save. Now Chewie and Winter are on 40 damage shots. Interesting indeed. Also just cap the MTB whenever.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:26 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Tried to clean it up a bit.

Quote:
Target at will – Allied characters may target another allied characters, save 11, with a lower cost. The attacking character gets a -4 attack.


Of course swinefeld will have the final word on this (and I agree it's an appropriate mechanic for Garm, hope we can make it work), is that it will require a LOT of thought. The idea of a target having to be an enemy is pretty well everywhere in our game. It's going to significantly complicate targeting rules. If you can target allies as well as enemies, presumably it still needs to be a legal target (i.e., either not in cover or, if in cover, also the closest possible target). So if your whole squad can do that, then I would think it would actually make it much more difficult to target enemies (since you're very likely to have an ally in cover closer than an enemy in cover, for example).

I'm not saying it's unworkable, just very difficult.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:19 pm
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Quote:
Target at will – Allied characters may target another allied characters, ignoring cover, with a lower cost; save 11. The attacking character gets a -4 attack.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:50 pm
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Targeting an ally doesn't really mess with the targeting rules (we can already do that in some cases), but I'm really not liking the interactions with attacks. Too many inconsistencies with wordings of bonuses, things that respond, etc.

There are ways to hurt your own pieces already to get kill MTB or kick in Protective. It seems to me that being able to shoot your own guys so the enemy isn't getting cover from them isn't a good enough reason to allow the abuse that would go along with it. The CE being worked on in set 9 with Gar Stazi is a good example.

Replaces attacks SAs may be more manageable. Up above, it seems like Les was mainly looking at stuff with a splashing effect, so that would narrow it down. There could be some fun tricks there.

As Laura said, it will probably require a lot of thought to make it so it won't come back to bite us later.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:38 pm
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Better?

Quote:
Target at will – Allied characters may target another allied character that has a lower cost, ignoring cover, with a special ability that replaces attacks; save 11.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:29 pm
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there is no cover when targeting an ally. Take dominate for instance, you can pick any ally in LOS, this would be the same.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:45 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
It seems to me that being able to shoot your own guys so the enemy isn't getting cover from them isn't a good enough reason to allow the abuse that would go along with it. The CE being worked on in set 9 with Gar Stazi is a good example.



i'm not sure how abusable that is. So you shoot your guy to get him to move and make an attack. You still need to put the damage somewhere (figure or bdg) you need to take an action to make the attack and you need to hit. I guess it would sometimes be used to make a powerful shooter to shoot twice but there is a cost to it.

Perhaps in order to ensure that it has limits the ability could be worded so that it is treated as a hit from an enemy. That would make evade saves a requirement.

just pondering.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:50 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Perhaps in order to ensure that it has limits the ability could be worded so that it is treated as a hit from an enemy. That would make evade saves a requirement.

just pondering.


That would address concerns with many of the inconsistencies in wordings (typically 'enemy', sometimes just 'target' etc). Most stuff would function normally then, I think.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:14 pm
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The CE is mental. Especially if hive mind becomes prevalent. Its funny that you can actually bank on a certain amount of movement assuming you expect to be out activated. Like 6 characters gives you 8 squares of movement because the opponent will get one more phase than you and then finish off all in one phase. 8 gives you 10.

You want to have as many as possible. If either player has a small squad it actually weakens it. Wild mechanic. Its obviously good, especially as its undisruptable but the lack of Dodonna really keeps it in check.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:57 am
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fingersandteeth wrote:
The CE is mental. Especially if hive mind becomes prevalent. Its funny that you can actually bank on a certain amount of movement assuming you expect to be out activated. Like 6 characters gives you 8 squares of movement because the opponent will get one more phase than you and then finish off all in one phase. 8 gives you 10.

You want to have as many as possible. If either player has a small squad it actually weakens it. Wild mechanic. Its obviously good, especially as its undisruptable but the lack of Dodonna really keeps it in check.


Wasn't sure if mental is a good or bad thing....still not sure. We can drop disciplined leader if needed.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:16 am
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Mental just means wild (welsh 90's slang). It is neither good or bad.

It's hard to get my head around all the interactions. It's a big movement breaker and I guess my main trepidation is how it stacks with levitate.

Just something that needs testing. Disciplined leader is something to keep an eye on. NR squad generally match up well against the OR because they both tend to be tough Jedi but one has more movement.

I don't dislike it. The added choices of movement every phase may slow games a touch is also something to keep aware of.
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:53 pm
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All the movement doubles vs single activations.

Facing a 25 act squad with San or Ozzel (not too rare) means 50 squares of movement. You could move 3 guys halfway across the board in a round not even counting their own movement.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:55 pm
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Do you think it should just be one square instead of two? Cutting the distance covered in half.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:08 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
All the movement doubles vs single activations.

Facing a 25 act squad with San or Ozzel (not too rare) means 50 squares of movement. You could move 3 guys halfway across the board in a round not even counting their own movement.

That's not quite correct.

Once you activate out the opponent finishes in one phase and vice versa so it depends on how many activations you have as well as the opponent. If you have 20 activations then your looking at 11 phases so long as your opponent has more. ~ 22 spaces of movement. If he has less then it all depends on how many he has.

Keep in mind that activating all your pieces after the opponent taps out is one phase.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:25 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Keep in mind that activating all your pieces after the opponent taps out is one phase.


I guess I didn't know this. It never really mattered before.


So you'd always get another movement at the end of the round (assuming your opponent out-activates?)
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:33 pm
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you know, trying to check up on this and the wording in the rulebook doesn't support it. surprise.

There is nothing actually written about activating all your pieces at the end of a round being one phase and i was sure there was.

So I may be wrong.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:21 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
All the movement doubles vs single activations.

Facing a 25 act squad with San or Ozzel (not too rare) means 50 squares of movement. You could move 3 guys halfway across the board in a round not even counting their own movement.


i was thinking that this is a way to sort of counter this and what some may call an NPE.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:42 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
you know, trying to check up on this and the wording in the rulebook doesn't support it. surprise.

There is nothing actually written about activating all your pieces at the end of a round being one phase and i was sure there was.

So I may be wrong.


This is a Dave question.
Is there a ruling on this anywhere? if not can we define it one way or the other. Of course preferably so it would work with this. That being once your oppanent is activatived all his/her pieces that pieces that you have left are all activated during the same phase.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:47 pm
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So, I have nothing to contribute to the movement discussion at the moment, but I'll just leave this idea here:

Quote:
Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:07 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
you know, trying to check up on this and the wording in the rulebook doesn't support it. surprise.

There is nothing actually written about activating all your pieces at the end of a round being one phase and i was sure there was.

So I may be wrong.


This is a Dave question.
Is there a ruling on this anywhere? if not can we define it one way or the other. Of course preferably so it would work with this. That being once your oppanent is activatived all his/her pieces that pieces that you have left are all activated during the same phase.


I'll have to look into it. I think this may be the first effect that happens at end of a phase, rather than the start. If nothing else, the CE wording can address that somehow.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:44 pm
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To follow up:

I haven't found anything (yet) that says the last player with unactivated characters activates them all in one phase. Unless something from Nickname turns up, assume the normal 2 characters per phase (or whatever may modify that number at the time) until all characters have gone.

TJ pointed out that Moff Disra's CE (not an act control effect) happens at the start of a phase. So, the conditions for it to take effect are dependent on the positions of characters when each phase starts. Other stuff could be made that takes effect that way, so unless something turns up (per the above paragraph) the rulebook description will not be changed.

If you want to stop the CE movement when the other player out-activates, the simplest way is to add wording to the CE so it stops after all the Garm player's pieces are activated.

As to San, Ozzel etc., I guess that's the way it goes. Seems like that is the intent. Trying to word around them would probably be a royal PITA.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:12 pm
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Ok made a few tweaks after reading over the comments. Added targets treated as enemies for Target at Will and changed the CE to one square

LESHIPPY wrote:
Garm
NR
30-35?
Hp 90
DEF 21
ATK +7
20
Unique
Disciplined Leader (This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed)
Idealistic – Squad cannot contain characters from the Rebel Faction
Tactician +8(Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1)
Target at will – Characters may target allied characters with a lower point value. The attacking character gets a -4 attack. Targets count as enemy for special abilities and effects
Traps (Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense)

CE – At the end of your opponents phase, you may move one character one square.
Non-unique followers gain greater mobile attack
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:09 pm
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Thoughts?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:08 am
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Do you have a specific reason in mind for Idealistic? It's funny - old Garm used to be the guy to bring rebels into NR. Don't most rebels become NR through affinity if they come into NR? So would it accomplish what you are after?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:07 pm
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I was trying to go with the flavor that he held grudges and would work with some people.

So maybe it needs to be worded such as this. Idealistic – Squad cannot contain characters from the Rebel Faction even if they have Affinity to New Republic.

Maybe it should be Rival for Monmothma
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:45 pm
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Affinity does not get around Rival (faction). It's the same effect here with a different name, so I'd just go with Rival unless you want it to work differently somehow.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:41 am
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Maybe he should just have Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:26 am
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urbanshmi2 wrote:
Maybe he should just have Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]?

I like that combined with Rival for Mon Mothma
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:36 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
NR
33
Hp 90
DEF 21
ATK +7
20
Unique
Disciplined Leader (This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed)
Idealistic – [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]
Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Mon Mothma]
Tactician +8(Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1)
Target at will – Characters may target allied characters with a lower point value. The attacking character gets a -4 attack. Targets count as enemy for special abilities and effects
Traps (Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense)

CE – At the end of your opponents phase, you may move one character one square.
Non-unique followers gain greater mobile attack


Updated Rival and Idealistic. Went with 33 points
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:51 am
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Independent is the name for the already existing ability

It was used on a separatist piece, but I assume faction could be variable.

Also - did you want rival - rebel?



For his CE We should add the wording to cover what happens when Garms squad has all activated.

Quote:
Until all characters on this character's squad are activated each round, move one ally one square at the end of each of your opponents phases.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:02 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
NR
33
Hp 90
DEF 21
ATK +7
20
Unique
Disciplined Leader (This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed)
Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]
Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Mon Mothma, Akbar, or Dodonna]
Tactician +8(Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1)
Target at will – Characters may target allied characters with a lower point value. The attacking character gets a -4 attack. Targets count as enemy for special abilities and effects
Traps (Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense)

CE – At the end of your opponents phase, you may move one character one square.
Non-unique followers gain greater mobile attack


Ok over lunch, I went back and looked through the thread to make sure we weren't missing any thing. One thing that stuck out in my mind was Deri's comment about Dodonna. So we have to make sure they cannot be in the same squad.

I am thinking the Rival just might need to be these three characters. I think gets the feel of not wanting to work with people hi held grudges against. I am not sure the entire rebel faction would work as well as I previously thought.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:17 pm
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If the rival is for those three commanders, we might not need the Independent. I wonder if we could do a kind of reverse Rapport, where NR commanders cost MORE to be in a squad with him. Sort of strongly discouraging playing certain commanders without eliminating them entirely.

I agree with Tim that the CE should address being outactivated. However, we do want the movement to be technically optional, yes?

Quote:
Until all characters on your squad have been activated in a round, you may move one character one square at the end of your opponent's phase.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:52 pm
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Perhaps more like this:
Quote:
This round, until all characters in your squad are activated, you may move 1 of your characters 1 square at the end of each of an opponent's phases.


The thing that jumps to mind with this or the prior wording is that it affects the player (you), so you can only shut it off by disrupting Garm. Will need rewording if individual characters should be disrupted from moving.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:52 am
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That is a good question.

Do we want the recipients to be able to be disrupted?
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 Post subject: Re: Inside the minds of the design team - Garm Bel Iblis, RT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:56 am 
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:02 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
That is a good question.

Do we want the recipients to be able to be disrupted?


D'oh.
I overlooked that he has Disciplined Leader.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:22 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
That is a good question.

Do we want the recipients to be able to be disrupted?


D'oh.
I overlooked that he has Disciplined Leader.


So did I!
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:49 pm
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i dunno, its kind of what your paying 35 points for, so you can have a small number of pieces and have more movement the more activations the opponent has (and how many he activates).

I would be fine trying it as an indisrutable CE.

Try it with Mundo Luke, Ganner, him and some protectives.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, (full name tba)PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:05 am
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I think we're good with everything except base stats. His CE and tactician +8 makes him too valuable to risk in regualr combat.

So you'll have to protect him anyway.

But his stats are CRAZY high for a commander.

20 damage could be high, but that doesn't bother me at 33 points. 7 attack is totally fine.

But 21 defence is higher than most jedi, and 90 hp is pretty high.

here's my suggestion:
Quote:
25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
NR
33
Hp 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
20
Unique
Disciplined Leader (This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed)
Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]
Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Mon Mothma, Akbar, or Dodonna]
Tactician +8(Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1)
Target at will – Characters may target allied characters with a lower point value. The attacking character gets a -4 attack. Targets count as enemy for special abilities and effects
Traps (Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense)

CE – At the end of your opponents phase, you may move one character one square.
Non-unique followers gain greater mobile attack
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:50 am
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I would have rather dropped the damage to 10 as opposed to the HP.
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:32 am
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I didn't have a problem of 90 HP on a 33 point commander, 21 defense was high but the HP just puts him in the range of Xizor.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:56 am
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But he wasn't a martial arts expert like xizor.

HP can stay at 90, but I really feel Def should go down
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:58 pm
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21 does seem like kind of a high defense for a commander. I suppose I don't mind the HP as much at 90, since it's in the range of others at or around his point cost, and he doesn't have any other defensive abilities per se. It's high, but not ridiculous.

As to damage, I don't have much of a preference for either way. Playtesting will tell us where the sweet spot is.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:17 pm
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So i think this is where we are at then

Quote:
25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
NR
33
Hp 90
DEF 18
ATK +7
20
Unique
Disciplined Leader (This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed)
Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]
Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Mon Mothma, Akbar, or Dodonna]
Tactician +8(Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1)
Target at will – Characters may target allied characters with a lower point value. The attacking character gets a -4 attack. Targets count as enemy for special abilities and effects
Traps (Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense)

CE – At the end of your opponents phase, you may move one character one square.
Non-unique followers gain greater mobile attack
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:14 pm
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PT
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:32 pm
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:50 pm
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Because it will probably come up in PT but his CE could probably stand to go to 2 squares of movement. If only to allow a diagonal.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:46 pm
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added as marked, but Weeks may have a point edited to 2 squares
(also, still fiddling with wordings)

Quote:
25/45

Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
New Republic
33 pts

HP 90
DEF 18
ATK +7
DMG 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Akbar, Dodonna or Mon Mothma]

Tactician +8 [Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Target At Will [This character and allies may attack lower-cost allies at -4 Attack; during these attacks, the target and the attacker treat each other as enemies for purposes of abilities and effects]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]


Commander Effect
Each round, until all of your characters count as activated, you may move one of your characters 2 squares at the end of an opponent's phase.

Non-Unique followers gain Greater Mobile Attack.
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianenPostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:04 pm
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Weeks wrote:
Because it will probably come up in PT but his CE could probably stand to go to 2 squares of movement. If only to allow a diagonal.


It started at 2. The CE is potentially very powerful, vs certain squads you could have a fig go all the way across the board before using their own movement.

We cut it in half to temper it.

Do we need to allow for a diagonal?

I would think the bigger issue would be rough terrain/low objects.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:14 pm
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Well, I suppose there would be situations where you could be blocked from moving by another character if diagonals aren't possible, and terrain definitely screws with it.

With that in mind, I'd say bump it to 2, and instruct PT to test it thoroughly for abuse.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:20 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
Well, I suppose there would be situations where you could be blocked from moving by another character if diagonals aren't possible, and terrain definitely screws with it.

With that in mind, I'd say bump it to 2, and instruct PT to test it thoroughly for abuse.


Also - I forgot we added the "until all of your characters count as activated" clause, which helps temper it.

Alright - I'm good with 2 squares, and specifically try and abuse it.
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:13 pm
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sure, test 2 squares
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:10 am
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updated
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:10 am
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Quote:
Well, I suppose there would be situations where you could be blocked from moving by another character if diagonals aren't possible, and terrain definitely screws with it.


sort of why I started with two squares in the first place
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:03 pm
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So probably the biggest complaint by all the players was the Republic Commandos, and specifically their Coordinated Movement. It gives the squad so much movement it is nuts.

Now I know this CE is different. It being AFTER the other player goes, means it's harder to use it as a pseudo greater mobile attack like the commandos do. On the other hand, you only have 6-7 commandos in a squad, for a total of 12-14 squares of movement, and it was still hated on. All you need is more than 14 activations in the NR squad, and you'll get even more movement than that (assuming the enemy doesn't have less activations).

At this moment - I don't have a specific solution. But I wanted to get the conversation started. It really feels like the new Republic Commandos are poised to be the games newest NPE, so we really need to examine a piece of ours with a similar effect
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:18 pm
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Good lord man it was one tournament.

They were designed to be good because that is what people wanted a year ago.

Garm is just a way for the NR to deal with activation control. He should be good.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:44 pm
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After reading Deri's post in the Ezra thread. I thought about this CE more. What if Garm limited movement.

This is just an idea What if it was something the prevented swap and extra movement.

CE - Enemies characters cannot not move or be moved be moved during another enemies characters activation.

I thought about limiting speed, but I was't sure how to word that. maybe all enemy characters are considered to have speed 6.

I also thought about limting mobile attacks. Something along the lines of. Enemy characters cannot move after an attack or an ability the replaces attack.

Just throwing this out there.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:34 pm
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I had to read that a couple of times to get the gist. I think I see what you were trying to do, but I don't know if it's necessary to scrap the idea entirely (you're right the NR doesn't have nearly the available movement breakers as some other factions). I do have one suggestion that might split the difference:

Quote:
Until all of your characters are activated, after each of your opponents's phases, you may choose to move one character one square. Characters may ignore low objects and cover while subject to this effect.


That still won't help with diagonal movement, but it should help some.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:55 pm
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I think limiting enemy movement should be explored. I really like the idea.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:07 pm
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ok let's talk about options that feel tactical.


Quote:
CE - Enemies characters cannot not move or be moved be moved during another enemies characters activation.


Would the above be too much? In my mind this would take of basically every movement breaker except those with speed increases. But even those would take a hit swapping with yobuk and pawned lancers are the first that come to my mind. This might be too strong, I don't know. Disciplined Leader would probably make this useless, but looking over that list of 7 characters nothing pops out at me.

Tons of stuff would take hits with this CE. So, I thought about limiting it to just with in 6. IMO it would do a little bit more the Disruptive. It would snag two cable, lift, mount, and the like but not prevent pieces from crossing the board. R2 towing Mace just out side the 6 doesn't really help prevent anything except the swap out.

The original thought was dealing with activation control. So, instead of dealing with the speed aspect we deal with the activations.

Quote:
CE - At the end of each turn the opposing player must activate a character. This character cannot move, attack, or gain force points this round.

The thought here is if you are facing san hill you cut the activations in half. When activating normally your activations are cut in 1/3. When playing with something that allows you to move three the activations are cut by 1/4.

Again Disciplined leader would get around this. This might be the sweet spot the more I think about it. It doesn't kill movement breakers, but it does hender them. It helps deal with activation control which was the original intent of this piece.
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Echo Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:29 pm
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FYI, swapping isn't movement, so the wording will need to be updated to do what you want it to.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:01 pm
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Echo wrote:
FYI, swapping isn't movement, so the wording will need to be updated to do what you want it to.


That, and will need to handle involuntary movement. (push etc)
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:12 am
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Couple ideas

Quote:
Enemies may not attack and move more than their Speed.

Quote:
Enemies who change locations on a different enemy's turn are considered activated.



Maybe both? Either would do a good job of slowing things down. First one cancels Charging Fire and cuts Strafe/Gallop to half speed. Second one allows all of the swap, Coordinated Movement, etc., but you have to set it up for the next round. You can't move over and attack in the same round. Also I believe since it mentions "during a different enemy's turn" it covers involuntary movement. (In other words, it doesn't work if you push/SMB/etc someone. Only if they move another ally)

Incidentally, there is mention of Disciplined Leader a few places, but none of the suggestions (these or the ones earlier in the thread) are 'suppressing' enemy commander effects, so Disciplined Leader would not come into play. The commander effects still happen, but additional restrictions are added on top of them.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:51 pm
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Enemies may not move outside of their regular move?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:06 pm
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I don't know. I am still leaning more towards an activation offset. There are several abilities that we have handed out that deal with speed on characters.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:09 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Enemies may not move outside of their regular move?


That's an option. It doesn't cover swap, and it's a bit more of a hard counter for things like levitation or tow.

I like the balance of having them count as activated. You can do it, but at a cost. This hits swap, levitaiton, resol'nare, etc. So in other words, the best abilities in the game.

Taking a bite out of charging, strafe and gallop is also probably a good thing. Half of the GenCon top 8 had one of the three.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:51 am
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Quote:
At the beginning of the skirmish pick two enemy characters, these characters may not move more then their speed. When either of these characters are defeated choose another enemy character to affect.

Enemy characters that leave their current square during another enemy character's activation are considered activated for this round.


Will this work?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:43 am
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I rather like both of those, although I'd like to at least see a save on the second one.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:41 pm
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urbanshmi2 wrote:
I rather like both of those, although I'd like to at least see a save on the second one.


Agreed, the 2nd one needs a save. Also may need some wording tweaks.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:37 pm
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Quote:
Enemy characters that leave their current square outside of one of this character's ally's turns are considered activated, save 11.


Just trying to catch re'sol'nare, intuition, surprise move, etc.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:34 am
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Quote:
Enemy characters who leave their current square outside of their normal activation each round are considered activated; save11.


I know "turn" is really the preferred term, but some abilities (Pawn of the Dark Side, Aing-Tii Flow Walking) create their own turns. But we might not be able to catch Lancer anyway, because presumably the player can just take the regular Lancer turn (already activated) and then pawn back out.

As I said on Facebook, I still have concerns that going too broad with this is going to be a major NPE for a lot of people. Making the penalty activation and having a save helps a little, in that it just makes people adjust their game but doesn't totally neuter it. Still, I worry that people just aren't going to think it's fun.

I don't know what the answer is. We clearly want him to be good, but I don't know if negating other people's strategies is the way. I still like the idea of a little bit of extra movement.

Talking this over with Jason, and we had another idea. What if it was something like this:

Quote:
At the end of this character's turn, one ally within 6 squares can immediately move up to half its speed and make all of its attacks.


This sort of combines the neo crusader cannon with the original Garm's CE. Could be really strong, but you have to build around it. Just thinking...
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:02 pm
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Quote:
25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
NR
33
Hp 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
20
Unique

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Mon Mothma, Akbar, or Dodonna]

Tactician +8(Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1)

Target at will – Characters may target allied characters with a lower point value. The attacking character gets a -4 attack. Targets count as enemy for special abilities and effects

Traps (Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense)

CE
At the beginning of the skirmish pick two enemy characters, these characters may not move more then their speed. When either of these characters are defeated choose another enemy character to affect.

Enemy characters who leave their current square outside of their normal activation each round are considered activated; save11.


Put it all together so we could see what we are working with. I think an easy fix to tone it down a bit is remove Disciplined Leader, which i did for the stats above.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:11 pm
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Quote:
CE
At the beginning of the skirmish pick two enemy characters, these characters may not move more then their speed. When either of these characters are defeated choose another enemy character to affect.


Not sure I love this one. (I've never liked CEs when you select certain enemies. Especially more than 1). It also hinders those pieces from simply moving double speed without an attack (which is not a problem that I have seen). The abilities to target are the ones where you can move double and attack - namely strafe, gallop and charing fire. In other words, Lancer, Yodabuck, and Daala.

If we did this -
Quote:
Enemies may not attack and move more than their Speed.

Then it is more simple, less of a penalty overall, and covers the big three offenders.


As for the other half

LESHIPPY wrote:
Enemy characters who leave their current square outside of their normal activation each round are considered activated; save11.


Love the direction of this one. My concern is that with this wording there is a loophole - and that is if an ally on Garm's team has an ability to move an enemy (push, pull, repulse, etc) then they might become activated then. That seems like it's adding insult to injury.

Would this work?

Quote:
Except on an ally's turn, enemy characters who leave their current square outside of their normal activation each round are considered activated; save11.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:01 pm
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I think Les is more on track with picking a character(s), otherwise we'll be crapping on all kinds of stuff. Constantly affecting 2 pieces seems a bit rough, on the surface at least.

The 2nd part is probably going to be tough to word coherently, so it references characters correctly and doesn't crap on more effects than intended.

But, I haven't carefully thought through either CE yet.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:11 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
I think Les is more on track with picking a character(s), otherwise we'll be crapping on all kinds of stuff. Constantly affecting 2 pieces seems a bit rough, on the surface at least.


If it's picking a character, someone will just pick lancer/yodabuck/etc. And the effect is more harsh. It does miss effecting Daala too much.

Perhaps we should pick a character and not allow them to move double and attack? That seems the more prudent option.

The only real plus I can think of to never let a character move more than it's speed that has nothing to do with attacking would be R2 Astromech. He could use something to knock him down. But I think it would hurt too much. Jedi couldn't run toward the shooters double speed (even without an attack). I think it unfairly effects melee to just put a cap on it like that.
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 Post subject: Re: Inside the minds of the design team - Garm Bel Iblis, RT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:56 am 
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:26 pm
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Quote:
At the beginning of the skirmish pick two enemy characters, these characters may not move more then their speed and then attack. These two characters can also not be affected by allies' special abilities or commander effects that would allow this character move or attack.


Any better?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:35 pm
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This may be going in the right direction.

Wording may need to be adjusted a little. "Move mre than speed then attack" would cover charging fire, but I'm not sure about strafe or gallop. I'm not sure if "Move more than speed AND attack" works - but I think it's closer.

The addemndum you added also would cover cannon shots, which I don't have a problem with.

Laura - I don't think your idea was responded to. I personally don't think this game needs any more cannon shots at this time.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:40 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Laura - I don't think your idea was responded to. I personally don't think this game needs any more cannon shots at this time.


+1
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:43 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Laura - I don't think your idea was responded to. I personally don't think this game needs any more cannon shots at this time.


+1


No problem. I just didn't want to come off as dumping on the idea of movement nullification without having some idea of a different direction. Thanks for responding, anyway.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:18 pm
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This just occurred to me as a way to get around push, pull, repulse etc triggering the activation. Not thought through at all, but what about:

Quote:
Enemy characters affected by special abilities or commander effects that allow them to leave their current square outside their normal activation each round are considered activated; save 11
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:44 pm
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Nice. I like the direction.

It leaves levitate out. I believe just the word "abilities" covers SAs as well as force powers.

Also - Add "enemy" before the "special abilities and CEs" and I think that's good. (Allied SAs were not covered. Such as throw enemy).

So -


Quote:
Enemy characters affected by enemy abilities or commander effects that allow them to leave their current square outside their normal activation each round are considered activated; save 11
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:25 pm
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Like it
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:56 pm
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Rules gurus - how's wording in that CE suggestion?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:11 am
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(Post moved to QC thread.)


Last edited by FlyingArrow on Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:13 am
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Rules gurus - how's wording in that CE suggestion?


A rewrite is posted for review in QC.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:18 am
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From QC:
Quote:
Each enemy that changes position outside of its normal turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.


Looks good to me - I say lets roll with it
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:06 am
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TimmerB123 wrote:
From QC:
Quote:
Each enemy that changes position outside of its normal turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.


Looks good to me - I say lets roll with it


Beautiful--you guys move fast!
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:26 pm
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Quote:
25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
NR
33
Hp 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
20
Unique

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Mon Mothma, Akbar, or Dodonna]

Tactician +8(Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1)

Target at will – Characters may target allied characters with a lower point value. The attacking character gets a -4 attack. Targets count as enemy for special abilities and effects

Traps (Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense)

CE Each enemy that changes position outside of its normal turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.


I think this is where we are at.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:42 pm
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:50 pm
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:07 pm
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:03 am
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pt updated, posting back current QC wordings

Quote:
25/45

Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
New Republic
33 pts

HP 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
DMG 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Akbar, Dodonna or Mon Mothma]

Tactician +8 [Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Target At Will [This character and allies may attack lower-cost allies at -4 Attack; during these attacks, the target and the attacker treat each other as enemies for purposes of abilities and effects]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]

Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:06 am
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Rules question: if an ally using target at will attacks another ally within six of Garm, does traps come into play?
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:30 am
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Interesting question. I would think no, because even though the target is treated as an enemy by the attacker, the target is not an "enemy character" for purposes of Garm's abilities.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:46 am
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What if Garm were attacking?
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:10 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
What if Garm were attacking?


Then yes, I would say.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:02 pm
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urbanshmi2 wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
What if Garm were attacking?


Then yes, I would say.


And the fun begins...

I think Tim's question is just a first taste of where this ability is headed. I can't put my finger on it, (nor have I had time to really dig into it) but it makes me queasy. I have to think there is a way to abstract the desired effects without ripping a hole in the fabric of the game.

I get the flavor aspect, but what are we really seeking to accomplish here?
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:00 pm
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I need to know what specific things Target At Will is trying to enable.

Set off bombs? Get rid of a piece that is providing cover to an enemy? Shenanigans with Gar Stazi? Something else?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:07 pm
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I was thinking setting off bombs mainly. I also would like characters that give out benifits from being damaged to be able to benefit from this as well. So like some of the Liea abilities or Embrace the pain
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:26 pm
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thanks, that helps
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:34 pm
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So - what are we gonna do with this guy?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:59 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
So - what are we gonna do with this guy?

I'm thinking some kind of damage redirection effect. Friendly fire if you will, but I sure as hell don't want it to turn into another Bombad Gungan. It needs to be fairly simple.

I don't have the impression that Les wanted to require adjacency to an enemy, so it's a bit of a brain-bender.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:04 pm
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would this help?

Target At Will [This character and allies may attack lower-cost allies at -4 Attack; during these attacks, once targeted the target is not considered an ally or an enemy for the purposes of special abilities or commander effects until the attack is resolved.]
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:37 am
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To be blunt, I don't want to allow directly targeting/attacking your own pieces into the game in this fashion. It's way too open to odd interactions that are currently hiding or have not yet been created.

There are (IIRC) only 2 existing instances of attacking your own pieces - LS Throw (surprisingly undocumented as to calculating bonuses, but it IS limited in multiple ways - basically Splash attacks) and Bombad Gungan (total clusterf***).

Your usage examples were to put damage on bombs, protective pieces, EoP and such.

I think a more safe abstraction might be to just have it be redirected damage to ally within 6 of target, or something along those lines.

Having it apply to melee and Jedi seems questionable - but I don't know the source material for the idea.

I'm willing to entertain the idea if it can be fenced in and tightly controlled, but it is a bit nebulous at this point, and applies very broadly (allies!). The Designers need to have a discussion of how this could play out, and more importantly think about where it could go off the rails.
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:57 am
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So, what if, instead of attacking, it was just a way to put automatic damage on your own pieces?

Quote:
At the end of this character 's turn, one non-Unique follower within 6 squares may choose an ally within line of sight. That ally and all characters adjacent to that ally take 10 damage
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:22 am
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I really like that idea Laura. That's the direction we should go in

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:58 am
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Like it. Would prefer 20 Damage though.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:21 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Like it. Would prefer 20 Damage though.


If it were 20, we might have to limit it more than LOS, or limit the number of adjacent characters affected. All things that can certainly be discussed.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:25 am
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My bad. missed the damage to all adjacent. 10 is fine
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:31 am
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This is interesting. You could use it offensively as well (the splash portion)

I think lets PT as that
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:44 am
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TimmerB123 wrote:
This is interesting. You could use it offensively as well (the splash portion)

I think lets PT as that


I agree, although I would suggest that the name should be changed to Fire at Will, as the use of the word Target in a no targeted ability could be confusing.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:31 pm
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Ah, simplicity. :)
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:38 pm
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Quote:
25/45

Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
New Republic
33 pts

HP 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
DMG 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Akbar, Dodonna or Mon Mothma]

Tactician +8 [Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Fire At Will [At the end of this character 's turn, one non-Unique follower within 6 squares may choose an ally within line of sight. That ally and all characters adjacent to that ally take 10 damage]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]

Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.


Lol, and Will is the poor ally who gets fired at.


Seriously - though, quick question - do we need it to be non-unique? It seems like if someone wants to do it with a unique, let them. Am I forgetting something that would make it too good that way?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:46 pm
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Not that I can think of. I was just thinking of a commander and his grunts. I guess we could get the same effect by saying followers, or we could let it be anyone. I do not care.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:19 am
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Been thinking about Fire at Will some more. I do think this is the mechanic we need to go with, but it still needs to make sense. I'm thinking it needs to be a New Republic ally without Melee Attack. Thoughts?
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 Post subject: Re: Inside the minds of the design team - Garm Bel Iblis, RT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:56 am 
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:05 am
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I am fine with it being anyone.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:15 am
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I don't think it needs to be follower or non-unique - but I do think it should be non-melee.

I could go either way with NR or any faction
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:23 am
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I think non-melee should cover it. I just didn't want it extending to uggies etc
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:06 pm
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does Garm's independent effect the use of "Force Valor"?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:14 pm
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I think it would get around it. Independent should work like Rival, meaning that it just comes into play in squad-building. A potential commander is not a commander during squad-building. Could be wrong, though.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:44 pm
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That was my thought too.


On a separate note, is "Ruthless Commander" been locked in for Garm? I'll be honest, I don't like it. It just doesn't sit right. I understand the source material and why he has "fire at will", but I still don't think it's quite accurate.

He made a very tough decision when the Vong were using NR allies as body shields. He sacrificed them to prevent even more carnage. "Shoot the hostage" (reference Speed) He knew they were dead anyway, it was not ruthless. It was calculated, shrewd, and in the end really was the right move.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:11 pm
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It was a suggestion of mine that caught on. Maybe ruthless isn't quite right.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:41 am
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PT says that this guy is pretty expensive for what he does. PT suggest 27 which might be a bit low, but we could split the difference at 30 and be ok I think
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:51 am
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Aonther play test says the same thing he is expensive for what he does. Their suggestion was was to have Garm have reserves or reinforcements.

If we went this way and had is cost remain teh same I would tend to lean towards reserves. I would go with NR reserves 20 and keep the cost at 33 maybe bump to 35

Thinking you would bring in two max of three characters.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:17 am
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Reserves seems appropriate for him. I'd be good with that suggestion.

I've been thinking some more about Tim's comments about the name. I haven't really come up with anything I like better, but some words I've been kicking around are Resolute, Unyielding, Relentless...

Maybe there's something there.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:38 am
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I typically hate reserves on anything other than a fun/theme piece. (Re: Daala)

But it can't be effectively stacked that I can think of. (Re: Daala and Ozzel)

I'm not against it on this piece.


As far as the name - I'd choose unyielding of the suggestions, but I still don't love it. Much better than ruthless though.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:40 am
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Actually it could stack with Chief of State Borsk Fey'lya, giving 50pts of reserves.

Now I don't know how effective that would be - but we at least need to be aware of it
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:01 am
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Maybe just something like Supreme Commander?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:04 am
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urbanshmi2 wrote:
Maybe just something like Supreme Commander?


Love that
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:10 am
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TimmerB123 wrote:
urbanshmi2 wrote:
Maybe just something like Supreme Commander?


Love that


Cool. Let's go with that.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:42 am
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Love to hear Les and Deri's input on the name too, but if we really wanted to go with something specifically to reflect the situation that inspires "Fire at will" - here's another suggestion:

Decisive (Commander/Tactician/etc).

Also - I just looked it up on Wookieepedia, and I don't think he ever was a Supreme Commander (an actual rank). He was on the High Command. Unfortunately High Commander might give other connotations. . .


I wanted to give another option anyway
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On a lighter note:

Warning - naughty language contained in the funny meme below.
SPOILER: SHOW

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:04 pm
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Decisive is good.

Edit: decisive leader?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:57 am
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Quote:
25/45

Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
New Republic
33 pts

HP 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
DMG 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Akbar, Dodonna or Mon Mothma]

Tactician +8 [Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Fire At Will [At the end of this character 's turn, one follower within 6 squares without the Melee Attack special ability may choose an ally within line of sight. That ally and all characters adjacent to that ally take 10 damage]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]

Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.


Removed non-unique and added non-melee to Fire at Will. I still have nightmares about mouse droids pinging allies for 10 damage, but can't fix everything on the card.

Do we want to try to get this into PT?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:59 am
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Leader/Commander/Tactician are all fine. They are all generic enough, and he certainly was all three. I guess I lean toward commander myself - but it's not a big deal.

Let's add living to Fire at will. There's room to have that one word. (I also don't want mice doing anything more than they already do)
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:05 pm
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urbanshmi2 wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Quote:
25/45

Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
New Republic
33 pts

HP 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
DMG 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Akbar, Dodonna or Mon Mothma]

Tactician +8 [Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Fire At Will [At the end of this character 's turn, one living follower within 6 squares without the Melee Attack special ability may choose an ally within line of sight. That ally and all characters adjacent to that ally take 10 damage]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]

Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.


I had debated about living, but didn't necessarily want to leave out droids that legitimately could be making attacks. However, it's the easiest way to avoid the issue, and affects a relatively small number of pieces likely to be in an NR squad.

Added living. PT.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:05 pm
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It was talked about - let's give it a try with reserves. Raised cost to 35 as suggested.

Added living to Fire At Will

Put name as Decisive Commander (can be changed, pending what others think)

Quote:
25/45

Garm Bel Iblis, Decisive Commander
New Republic
35 pts

HP 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
DMG 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

New Republic Reserves 20 [If you roll exactly 20 for initiative, you can add up to 20 points of New Republic characters to your squad immediately before your first activation of the round]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Akbar, Dodonna or Mon Mothma]

Tactician +8 [Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Fire At Will [At the end of this character 's turn, one living follower within 6 squares without the Melee Attack special ability may choose an ally within line of sight. That ally and all characters adjacent to that ally take 10 damage]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]

Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.


PT
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:48 pm
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PT.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:57 pm
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Bumped for Les or Deri.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:45 pm
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So after reading the PT result I read the stats wrong I thought he had Reinforcements as opposed to reserves.

I agree with what Tim mentions about Reserves on page 7 on this thread. I am not a big fan of it unless it is just meant to be a fun flavorful piece.

That is the only change that I would like to see.

If we want to stay with reserves, I would like to see it changed to a roll of 1 instead of 20. Also add stealth.

Thoughts?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:17 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
If we want to stay with reserves, I would like to see it changed to a roll of 1 instead of 20.


Dave or Scott (I forget which) stated that Reserves numbers can't change. New Republic Reserves are already set for 20 (Borsk Fey'lya). If you wanted Reserves on 1, it could be a subset like New Republic Trooper Reserves or something like that.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:26 am
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Les, are you suggesting dropping reserves?

New Republic reserves already exists, and it's on a 20. I don't think we should change the number if it stays.

If we drop it and add stealth, I'm fine with that. We can even drop it a few points in that case.


As the play tests showed, this character is innately swingy. Play versus a squad with a lot of out of turn movement, and the CE is fantastic. Play against a squad without any out of turn movement breakers (Daala) and you're not getting your points worth.


Btw, this would only be the second figure to have tactician +8. The other is the revanchist at 42pts. Then with Master Tactician you have 2 Thrawns, 2 Revans, and Shimmra. Just illustrating that Tactician +8 is awesome, and should not be undervalued. I think it is valued appropriately here.
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FlyingArrow wrote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
If we want to stay with reserves, I would like to see it changed to a roll of 1 instead of 20.


Dave or Scott (I forget which) stated that Reserves numbers can't change. New Republic Reserves are already set for 20 (Borsk Fey'lya).


Ninja'd!
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:40 am
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Same named Reserves numbers can't change.

Some twist on the Reserves would let you pick a different number.
(such as with Dyer's Scout Trooper Reserves)
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:46 am
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Dropped Reserves

Added stealth

Points back down to 33


Quote:
25/45

Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
New Republic
33 pts

HP 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
DMG 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Akbar, Dodonna or Mon Mothma]

Tactician +8 [Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Fire At Will [At the end of this character's turn, 1 living follower without Melee Attack within 6 squares may choose an ally within line of sight; that ally and all characters adjacent to it take 10 damage]

Stealth [If this character has cover, it does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]

Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.


Done?
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:56 am
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Yeah, I think that's fine. Done.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:57 am
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swinefeld wrote:
Same named Reserves numbers can't change.

Some twist on the Reserves would let you pick a different number.
(such as with Dyer's Scout Trooper Reserves)


can you explain why? i want a good reason. not because someone said so with no explanation here.

Sorry it doesn't make sense to me.

Plus it is currently this according to Bloomilk.
New Republic Reserves 30 (If you roll exactly 20 for initiative, you can add up to 30 points of New Republic characters to your squad immediately before your first activation of the round)

So NR Reserves 20 would be new. Thus why i think you could change the number on the die roll.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:58 am
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no not done.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:00 pm
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If if we want to take off reserves fine, but I would like to have 20 points of reinforcements.

As many have already stated the independent ability really hinders this guy. Comparing him to the rest of the commanders that have tact +8 doesn't really work well IMO
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:01 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
no not done.


Also, did we ever figure out how the CE interacts with Disruptive? As I was posting, obikenobi1 was posting in the PT thread that he should have Disciplined Leader to help him be more useful against Mandos.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:06 pm
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I'd be fine with reinforcements if we raise the cost. As it is right now reinforcements 20 would make him a net cost of 50 which is far too low.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:08 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I'd be fine with reinforcements if we raise the cost. As it is right now reinforcements 20 would make him a net cost of 50 which is far too low.


Yes, the cost would need to go up with reinforcements. But in general I have no issues with that suggestion--the original Garm has 30 points of reinforcements, so it makes sense for this guy to have some, too.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:13 pm
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I'm sorry Les, I guess I misunderstood your post about reserves
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:15 pm
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The CE is very powerful. I'm not against disciplined leader but that could be significant.

We are still waiting on word from QC on exactly how his CE would interact with disruptive
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 Post subject: Re: Inside the minds of the design team - Garm Bel Iblis, RT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:56 am 
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:15 pm
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The CE is very powerful. I'm not against disciplined leader but that could be significant.

We are still waiting on word from QC on exactly how his CE would interact with disruptive
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:49 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
We are still waiting on word from QC on exactly how his CE would interact with disruptive


I'll come back to this asap.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:52 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
We are still waiting on word from QC on exactly how his CE would interact with disruptive


I'll come back to this asap.


Regardless of the ruling here, there will be confusion on the matter.

Should we just put discipline leader on him to both strengthen the character and not have to worry about confusion?

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:01 pm
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swinefeld wrote:

The glossary treats it as [X] Reserves #. # is the variable amount of points you can add, but the number you need to roll stays the same. It has been that way forever, with numerous examples, and I really don't think we should break that pattern this far into the life of the game.

However, if [X] changes to something (like a more specific group of pieces) that hasn't been made yet, you can make the number whatever you want.

Does that help?


Yep explains it exactly as I needed to see it. Thanks. That explanation make sense.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:02 pm
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Quote:

Regardless of the ruling here, there will be confusion on the matter.

Should we just put discipline leader on him to both strengthen the character and not have to worry about confusion?


If it makes it easier rules wise then yes.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:03 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I'm sorry Les, I guess I misunderstood your post about reserves


Sorry i always get them confused.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:06 pm
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So if we add disciplined leader, add stealth, lose reserves and cost 33 how does that sound?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:38 pm
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I think he could be around 45 points with the reinforcements.

I guess I don't see him with out reinforcements being as strong as Grand Admiral Thrawn
Master is better that tact 8 - 2 points maybe more

Yslamri is better then traps and fire at will combined - 2 points maybe more

Swap cancels the current Garm CE but that still leaves you the +3+3. 5 points

so with out reinforcements he is worth 29 points maybe less. IMO. So adding 20 points of reinforcements i don't think should bump it up the full 20 points. If so why have it at all? That is why i think 45 is a good spot.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:42 pm
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What power level are we shooting for? Thrawn is a faction defining power 11 piece.

Not saying 45 cost with reinforcements is out of the question. It does however make him look quite a bit like his other version.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:28 am
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I was thinking power level 8 or there abouts.

In my earlier post I forgot to figure in Independent and Rival as pretty big negatives I would say combined they are at least a -5 to 8 points. You are losing access to many of the NR bag of tricks.

If we do Reinforcements 20 you only get two characters. However that would allow you to bring in both Ghost Luke and the new R2. I am not sure that is a huge problem.

With all that being said i could see him costing 37-40 points

I didn't realize his original piece cost 45. However, this piece seems quite different to me even if they cost close to the same. The reinforcements and the stats are the only part similar. All the cool stuff sets it apart.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:32 pm
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Oh poo! I had a whole long page writing out my thought process here.

Here it goes again.

Just talking it through. If we do Rienforcements 20

You're right this guy is very different from the WotC version.

His CE is the main reason to use him. Very powerful.
(Disciplined leader is an even stronger upgrade to this, but I think he should have it for multiple reasons)

Tact +8 is also quite strong.

Fire at will is interesting and could be useful, but not gamebreaking.

Traps is pure flavor and will rarely come into play.

You are right that independant and rival are significant minuses.

This guy with his prior stats seemed just slighty overcosted.



So what are rienforcements worth? By pure math, if we costed him at 40, his net cost would be 20.

Many would say that Rienforcements are worth more than their cost, because you get to customize based on what you are facing. But NR reinforcements certainly aren't as useful as fringe (many more options there). Lobot is always a bad comparison though, as he is a power 12 piece at this point.

Vsets have actually done a great job expanding NR reinforcement options.

New NR Leia for force sense

Borsk Fe'lea if facing bombs

Cade Padawan for essence of life

Wraith Squadron Pilot for swarms (or the new bomber)

You already mentioned force ghost and R2 - both very useful.

Kol Skywalker Ghost if facing Bastila, Atris, Exar Kun Ghost, etc

Rogue rookies for a 6 pt filler

Jan Ors or GA Special Guard for more firepower (especially with R2-PO)

even the training droid has its uses in some builds



So more great options to customize than one might think.


My point is that overall, reinforcements make this character better.

I think price would have to be 45+, or we have to temper something or shave something else off.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:16 pm
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meet in the middle at 42?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:33 pm
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42 and lose stealth?

I don't really think he needs it. Most times it will be used early to get protective rolling.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:24 pm
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i like him with it, but if the others disagree then that is fine. It can be dropped.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:19 am
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This figure is very strong.

I truly believe that one of the biggest keys to our game in general is movement breakers. Nerfing (or at least strongly discouraging or hampering) out of turn movement breakers is massive.

In a swap squad it might effect one or two characters a round. With Resolnare in a mando squad or coordinated command in a Republic Commando squad - it effects MOST of the characters EVERY round. I am not against that - those two are VERY strong abilities and could use a counter. But what other collateral damage are we effecting?

I like the concept, and I want to go in this direction. I just think we need to acknowledge that it is very strong.

When he was at 35 points, he was perhaps a bit overcosted. Maybe he should have been about 30.

30 estimated original cost (- reserves, plus stealth and Disciplined leader) and add reinforcements should be a cost around 50. 42, even minus stealth (a minor thing in my opinion, he doesn't need LoS for anything) I'd rate him at a 9-9.5 power level.

I'm not completely opposed to that. We just need to accept that with our eyes open and not be surprised about it.


I'd love to hear Deri and Laura's viewpoint on this. I am cautious with powerful new abilities and figures - because a single figure that dramatically shifts the meta by itself is a BAD THING (we've seen ample evidence of that). But perhaps I am being overly cautious in this particular case. Better safe than sorry I.M.O.

Let's talk this out. I encourage discussion here.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:09 am
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I think he's very swingy. Against squads that are built around out of turn movement, he could probably cost 70 and be fine. But most squads only have a couple of characters that would be affected, if that. He'll never be played if we cost him toward his value against his best matchup.

At the same time, even in squads that only have a couple of affected characters, having those characters be activated before taking their turn is likely to be a major, and perhaps game swinging, hindrance. So even against those squads having that (undisruptible) CE is probably bumping his cost into the mid-high 30s. It's only really against squads with only incidental or no movement breakers he would be seriously overcosted. We need to take that swinginess into account, though.

If we want to do reinforcements and keep cost comparable to the first Garm, one thing we could do to temper is to drop the save to a 6. I agree that he doesn't need Stealth, but I don't think having it changes his value significantly. With the save dropped to a 6, affected characters would still have a reasonable chance to avoid activation, but the deterrent value is still there, too.

I'm terrible at costing things in general, so I can't say for sure what he should cost with the save at either level. But after thinking it through, I'm inclined to think that he should probably be in the high 40s or so with current stats and leaving the save at 11. If we dropped the save to 6, I could see him being more like 42.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:52 am
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Sure 42 and lose stealth then. I would rather not make the CE worse
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:23 pm
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who does the commander effect, affect?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:35 pm
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Quote:
Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.


Swap, Tow, Levitation, Resol'nare, end of turn CE movement, and whatever else falls in there.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:07 pm
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It is concerning that a squad with Garm could counter other squads movement, but retain their own (ganner)

What if the CE effected both squads?

"I prefer a straight up fight to all this sneaking around" Han Solo

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:21 pm
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I like symmetrical abilities more than most, but I'm really not all that concerned about movement breakers in NR squads. There aren't that many (Ganner, Nei Rin technically), and they are not nearly as powerful as the ones we're trying to counter. Movement breakers are also not the NR's "thing" in the same way as for Mandos and Republic, for example. I just don't see the need to hamstring what they do have, and I really don't think it fits this piece.

Let's leave the CE as is and cost him appropriately. Not everything has to be give and take.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:57 pm
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urbanshmi2 wrote:
Movement breakers are also not the NR's "thing" in the same way as for Mandos and Republic, for example. I just don't see the need to hamstring what they do have, and I really don't think it fits this piece.


Name one competitive NR squad that doesn't use Ganner.

Levitate is as important to the NR as to the rebels.

The only reason i'm contemplating the CE is because you lose Dodonna.

If it was a straight nerf and the NR kept all its tricks it would be a no-no. But essentially this is creating a low activation NR squad that relies on a movement advantage.

The piece needs to be tested. The CE is pretty radical.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:11 pm
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From Garm's PT thread:
swinefeld wrote:
Without addressing any specific questions...

We're good. Passengers will not be affected by the CE when the transport moves (or is swapped).

They would be if passengers are swapped.

I'm going to have to write some FAQ on this one, for sure. :|


I thought I had this sorted, but I'm not sure anymore. Just wanted to add that back into the mix.

Edit: Found the definitive answer I was looking for, the above is correct.

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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:48 pm
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I didn't play Ganner in SCRUPLeS :P

But I see your point. I was perhaps a bit hasty to dismiss the suggestion.

I just see us doing a lot of reciprocal counters, which can work and be fun, but this feels like a Nerf without a need.

Edit: I'm still thinking about this. Might be coming around. Surprised by the idea, more than anything.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:11 pm
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Ok, after thinking about it some more, I think I'm all right with the idea of having it affect both squads from a gameplay perspective, although I'm still not convinced flavor-wise. My objection was more that I feel like this piece is already hard to play and build around, and I saw making another symmetrical ability as a further deterrent to playing him. But much as most NR squads do use Levitate, it's certainly possible to build without it, and there's nothing preventing someone from building without it if they wanted to avoid the negative altogether.

All of which I to say, if we want to try to get a couple of tests in with the CE affecting both sides, I'm on board.

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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:59 pm
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Do we have any two-way effects in this set? Jam transmissions was at one point, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head.

It's definitely still advantage to Garm's team. They get to prepare for it.

I can still see Ganner being used with him. He would just be used slightly differently. At the end of a round, setting up a beginning of the round strike, or have Han step out and take some shots and Ganner pull him back to safety.

Other squads will likely be more reliant on thier movement breakers, so Garm's squad, built and prepared for it will be better off.

We could keep the cost down that way too obviously.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:18 pm
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Yeah, I think I was thinking of Jam Transmission before it got changed. I think we talked about a couple of others, as well, but maybe none that stayed that way.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:28 pm
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Regardless, we should figure out if it is right for this ability on this figure.

I think it should be tested.

At the very least - we should build squads to see what we can do with it.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:23 am
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TimmerB123 wrote:

What if the CE effected both squads?



Nope not what I had attended at all. I am not sure what the problem is besides we are just down to two characters to argue about.

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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:13 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:

What if the CE effected both squads?



Nope not what I had attended at all. I am not sure what the problem is besides we are just down to two characters to argue about.


Three, actually. Aves is not done yet.

fingersandteeth wrote:
The piece needs to be tested. The CE is pretty radical.

Agreed.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:50 am
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forgot aves sorry
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:30 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
forgot aves sorry


I had thought he was done, until recently, so I was just reminding everyone. :)

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:34 pm
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I think this is where we are at.

Garm should be good. You are wrapping up 42 points in a guy that ha some severe limitations when it comes to NR. you only get one other commander effect and you can't have any of the normal tricks in NR.

PT

Quote:
25/45

Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
New Republic
42 pts

HP 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
DMG 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Fire At Will [At the end of this character's turn, 1 living follower without Melee Attack within 6 squares may choose an ally within line of sight; that ally and all characters adjacent to it take 10 damage]

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

New Republic Reinforcements 20 [During setup, after seeing your opponent's squad, you can add up to 20 points of New Republic characters to your squad]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Akbar, Dodonna or Mon Mothma]

Stealth [If this character has cover, he does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets]

Tactician +8 [Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]

Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.

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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:33 pm
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I thought Stealth was getting dropped at 42? He doesn't really need it, and I'm not sure it fits, anyway.

Swinefeld posted a partial list of things affected by the CE in the QC thread. I don't think it's too much, but it's a good reminder of just how far-reaching this is.

Yes, he comes with a lot of limitations, and it's still very swingy in some respects. But Independent only limits NR commanders--he can still have Fringe commanders, of which there are at least a few worth playing in NR. So you can still play pilots with the Klat Captain and either Jag or Kell, or maybe even the new Lando. I'm sure there are other combos I'm not thinking of.

Anyway, in the interest of harmony, if you want to keep Stealth and the CE as is, cost should probably come in more like 47.

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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:22 pm
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I think testing is the way forward from here.

With disruption out of the picture for the moment, that takes away one significant 'swing' factor. Squads with access to save rerolls or bonuses will suffer much less. Free CE movement, CoCo etc. will likely shift to moving pieces that have already activated.

He needs a handful of good tests, minimum. Adjust, and then test some more

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:25 am
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I want to keep him in the low 40's so if we have to lose stealth that is fine.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:34 am
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We tested a Garm squad last night against Mace in the Face (J will post a report at some point). In the early going, the CE really slowed me down, partly because I got some terrible save rolls with Mace. A squad that didn't have force point rerolls would likely have struggled more. Anyway, it definitely didn't feel too strong at 42--the squad wasn't optimized, but there also wasn't a lot of room to fiddle with.

Obviously needs tested against a shooter squad, but the consensus was that he really didn't need stealth.

This is such a tough piece to cost so it will be played. Low 40s feels reasonable in most matchups, but there will be squads that could just be wrecked by this, and I don't know how to weigh that.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:59 am
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I'm still thinking about the CE,

it says allies, so a figure that uses suprise move or intuition of its own volition is unaffected?

So Kelborn would not face a save himself, but all those who use it will?
What about if you pawn something and it moves? Does that piece need to check for activation status? If it does than this piece starts to become more and more useful.

To me, this seems like a good trade off because it will start to make an impact on squads looking to move a lot outside of its own turn and force people to build with pieces that are more self reliant. I think that will generally be good for the game.

Also, i think the reinforcements should stay as ALL NR. there just isn't much choice otherwise and a lot of the uniques you want will have commander effects that make building hard. You will likely bring in 2 pieces, often one and at the most 3.
His reinforcements won't be used to increase activations (you can only get a max of 3) but mainly to counter squads.

Seeing as this piece seems like a counter piece, that seems to fit. I have no problem if this piece is strong as it will inevitably be in a low activation squad.
I think its effect on the game will be beneficial as it starts to attack some of the wayward movement outside of turns like the commandos and the mando's.

If what i've posted here about the ce is correct then i think i'm close to calling this piece.
He is far more interesting than i first thought but that's because of the CE. Fire at will is odd and likely to be seldom used so you are using him to slow the opponents and improving your init chance while sacrificing activation and tempo control.

I'm pretty happy with that trade off and can't see it breaking the game, or even being a NPE (unless you like running swarms with massive amounts of out of turn movement.).

I think the cost is about right. 22 points for the CE and init seems a lot but the reinforcements has some tasty options. He takes up a chunk of change so i think he is about where he needs to be.

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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:41 am
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Deri, the squads you built in the PT forum are much stronger than the one that we build to PT with. Which is good. But they are not crazy powerful. He is tricky to build with.

It is my understanding that every thing you stated is correct. Intuition and surprise move will be unaffected Kelborn can still use his own resolnare, but everyone else that benefits from it will have to make a save. As far as pawn, if you activate first then pawn second it will have no effect. Doing it in reverse will require a save. Having the option to do it both ways is better, so putting a risk on one of those ways (usually the superior way) does weaken pawn.

Resolnare and coordinated command get hit hardest (good). Swap, tow and master lift all take a hit (also good). There inevitably will be some collateral damage to abilities that don't need to be nerfed, but such is the nature of an effect like this.

It is a very powerful CE, but that's kind of the point.

I think it's probably fine at 42. Probably drop stealth and call him good.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:52 am
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Agreed on stealth.

No need for it, doesn't really fit the character, keeps the cost down.

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 Post subject: Re: Inside the minds of the design team - Garm Bel Iblis, RT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:57 am 
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 am
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fingersandteeth wrote:
I'm still thinking about the CE,

it says allies, so a figure that uses suprise move or intuition of its own volition is unaffected?

- correct

So Kelborn would not face a save himself, but all those who use it will?
What about if you pawn something and it moves? Does that piece need to check for activation status? If it does than this piece starts to become more and more useful.

- yes, and yes
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:10 pm
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Quote:
25/45

Garm Bel Iblis, Decisive Commander
New Republic
42 pts

HP 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
DMG 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Fire At Will [At the end of this character's turn, 1 living follower without Melee Attack within 6 squares may choose an ally within line of sight; that ally and all characters adjacent to it take 10 damage]

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

New Republic Reinforcements 20 [During setup, after seeing your opponent's squad, you can add up to 20 points of New Republic characters to your squad]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Akbar, Dodonna or Mon Mothma]

Tactician +8 [Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]

Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.


Done?
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:27 pm
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Done
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:34 pm
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FT?

Quote:
During the Yuuzhan Vong War, Commander Bel Iblis ordered his forces to fire on civilian targets that stood between he and the enemy, believing that the targets would die regardless.

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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:50 pm
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Done.

FT looks good, although it should be "him" not "he."

Is Decisive Commander the name we're going with? Just confirming.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:56 pm
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them?
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:58 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
them?


That could work, too.
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:51 pm
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Done.

(Holy crap, is that the last one!?!)
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:00 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Done.

(Holy crap, is that the last one!?!)


Technically, yes. Might be too early to count chickens. ;)
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:07 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Done.

(Holy crap, is that the last one!?!)


Technically, yes. Might be too early to count chickens. ;)


True.

There's always little things that pop up. But I'm still happy.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Decisive Commander?? - STATS DONEPostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:29 pm
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Garm Bel Iblis, Defender of Coruscant

Les or Deri, does that work for you?
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Decisive Commander?? - STATS DONEPostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:32 pm
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sure
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Defender of Coruscant - STATS DONEPostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:31 pm
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Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - This is what I had in mind way way back.

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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Defender of Coruscant - STATS DONEPostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:47 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - This is what I had in mind way way back.


I'm good with whatever at this point. :)
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Defender of Coruscant - STATS DONEPostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:01 pm
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We decided it was Les' call, so--I think maybe we're done here.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Defender of Coruscant - STATS DONEPostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:05 pm
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urbanshmi2 wrote:
We decided it was Les' call, so--I think maybe we're done here.


Yep, sounds like it. Good.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - STATS DONEPostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:10 pm
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* QC *

Quote:
25/45

Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
New Republic
42 pts

HP 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
DMG 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Fire At Will [At the end of this character's turn, 1 living follower without Melee Attack within 6 squares may choose an ally within line of sight; that ally and all characters adjacent to it take 10 damage]

Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]

New Republic Reinforcements 20 [During setup, after seeing your opponent's squad, you can add up to 20 points of New Republic characters to your squad]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Ackbar, Dodonna or Mon Mothma]

Tactician +8 [Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]

Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.


During the Yuuzhan Vong War, Commander Bel Iblis ordered his forces to fire on civilian targets that stood between them and the enemy, believing that the targets were already lost.


TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Defender of Coruscant - STATS DONEPostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:24 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - This is what I had in mind way way back.

Yup

Done
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - QC POSTEDPostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:05 pm
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Image
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - QC POSTEDPostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:23 am
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Hold please - CE wording may not be final

capital E in commander effect
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - QC POSTEDPostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:26 pm
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Updated wording in the CE to clarify timing:

Quote:
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round at the end of that turn; save 11.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - QC POSTEDPostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:38 pm
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I took the first line of the flavor text out and changed enemy to vong to keep the descriptor. If you don't like it please say so and i'll change it back to enemy.
It currently fits without too much cramping.

Image

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - QC POSTEDPostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:24 pm
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+1


Markedman247 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - QC POSTEDPostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:28 am
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - QC POSTEDPostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:56 am
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: approved :

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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:22 am
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So, I hate to even bring this up, but--do droids need to be subject to the CE? Thinking of the Commando Droids and Coordinated Movement.

Please don't shoot me.

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FlyingArrow Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:57 am
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That's a very good point. Has it gone to the printer yet? If so, moot point.
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:02 am
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Yeah, I haven't heard if the cards have gone to the printer yet. I imagine it's something that can be included in the glossary entry without changes to the card, anyway.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:02 pm
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Ugh. Good catch Laura.

We should look into that one way or another
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:11 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Ugh. Good catch Laura.

We should look into that one way or another


I'm shocked no one considered it before. I was just lying in bed this morning, thinking about the squads at the Chicago Regional, and the command droids popped into my head. So then I was thinking about out of turn/pre-round movement, and ways around it, which led to Garm. Who I then realized would currently not help against them at all.

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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:33 pm
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urbanshmi2 wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Ugh. Good catch Laura.

We should look into that one way or another


I'm shocked no one considered it before. I was just lying in bed this morning, thinking about the squads at the Chicago Regional, and the command droids popped into my head. So then I was thinking about out of turn/pre-round movement, and ways around it, which led to Garm. Who I then realized would currently not help against them at all.


And that would also affect Sith BM'd droids and Savages. So yeah. It could affect a few things

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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:57 pm
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do we want to include savages in this also? I'm fine with including all pieces.

i've altered it to include droids

Image
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:04 pm
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I would think Savage as well, just to cover the bases.

You're paying 40+ points for a piece that will only come into play some of the time. Yes, you get reinforcements, but it's still a big chunk. It should work against everything it reasonably can.

Thanks, Deri.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:20 pm
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Wow, good catch. Thanks all.


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FlyingArrow Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:17 am
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Should be "Droid and Savage characters are subject to this effect: "

Singular and capital S on Savage and add the word characters. Matches wording on Dodonna.
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:02 pm
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it is done
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician - COMPLETEDPostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 2:12 pm
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Droid should be singular, per what TJ posted above.

Thanks for all your work on this, Deri.
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