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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:51 pm 
Death Star Designers
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jonnyb815 wrote:
-1 sorry not a fan of non wotc maps just more truth how you only care about the top players and had a close mind set. Sinks since I believe we really could of grew the game without wotc. You need tournament play and leagues that's why the game failed Tim.


Odd, since these rules tend to be more about the top competitive players. Anyone using this list outside of Regionals and a few Gencon events, is taking it too seriously.

Here's the thing. You can't grow a local scene without work. Knowing what will appeal to your players. I will give Wizkids one thing, that their hands off in terms of format is much better for local groups. The game still lives. Ask Engineer how many Vsets he shipped last week (or, it might be better to ask Urbanjedi ;) ). And brutally honest, Johnny, but growing a group requires a whole lot more work than you have shown in helping us continue the game.

And we do need maps that are easily available. And sadly, the WOTC ones are drying up.

I will grant that the lists of legal maps isn't perfect, IMO. But that is just my opinion. I highly doubt the MAP LIST is what will kill the game. Making pieces that are broken and unfun to play against will do it a lot quicker.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:17 am 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
-1 sorry not a fan of non wotc maps just more truth how you only care about the top players and had a close mind set. Sinks since I believe we really could of grew the game without wotc. You need tournament play and leagues that's why the game failed Tim.


I've been re-reading this and still don't totally understand what you are trying to say here. Are you saying non-WotC maps shouldn't be on the list? How then when it comes to maps could we grow the game without WotC? Further, not all WotC maps were good for competitive play, as we all know. However, some maps made by Chris, Matt, and Josh after the announcement are some of the very best we have for competitive play because of the experience of our cartographers and the input we have given them.

I also think Brad should get big props on this brilliant 3 pronged map list. Aside from the overall good choices and mixture of maps, the added touch of sorting the maps by the three themes makes it fun as well.

This talk of the game having failed really irritates me. That flies in the face of all of the people who have worked these last few years to 1. balance the game and 2. keep it going. The game is much stronger at this point that I ever thought it would be. We all know the ride won't last forever, and when the ride ends I'll reluctantly get off and move on. Until then I plan to keep promoting it and changing my focus to reflect what interests my group. I'd like to know what YOU are doing to keep the game going aside from criticizing the hard work of guys like Brad.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:34 am 
Master of the Order
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jonnyb815 wrote:
You need tournament play and leagues that's why the game failed Tim.

Are you responding to something I wrote? I am confused. The game certainly hasn't failed me.

Darth_Jim wrote:
I've been re-reading this and still don't totally understand what you are trying to say here. Are you saying non-WotC maps shouldn't be on the list? How then when it comes to maps could we grow the game without WotC? Further, not all WotC maps were good for competitive play, as we all know. However, some maps made by Chris, Matt, and Josh after the announcement are some of the very best we have for competitive play because of the experience of our cartographers and the input we have given them.

I also think Brad should get big props on this brilliant 3 pronged map list. Aside from the overall good choices and mixture of maps, the added touch of sorting the maps by the three themes makes it fun as well.

This talk of the game having failed really irritates me. That flies in the face of all of the people who have worked these last few years to 1. balance the game and 2. keep it going. The game is much stronger at this point that I ever thought it would be. We all know the ride won't last forever, and when the ride ends I'll reluctantly get off and move on. Until then I plan to keep promoting it and changing my focus to reflect what interests my group. I'd like to know what YOU are doing to keep the game going aside from criticizing the hard work of guys like Brad.

Big +1

Insulting to Brad who puts a ton of work into the community for free, and insulting to guys like Jim who bust their butts selflessly (and SUCCESSFULLY I might add) to grow the game.

I have certainly been guilty in the past of making a stink when I disagree with something, it's something I am trying to get better at. In those cases though at least it is for the sake of the game and attempting to make it better (obviously in my opinion).

But to just throw up your hands and say the game has failed and it is dead is more destructive than anything. It does no good for anyone. If you really think that, then why are you wasting your time posting on these boards at all? Why not leave it to the people who still believe in this game?

This thread is way off topic. Let's try to keep it positive about the future of our game in general, can we?


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:54 pm 
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Johnny, why do you still frequent the boards if you no longer play and feel it has failed you? I know I and others have offered to loan you pieces if you'd come and play in regionals but you always seem to miss them. Just pick a regional that has a map(s) that you actually like and bring one, chances are you will get to play it in 1/2 of the games at least. Can't say the community hasn't tried and I actually am grateful for all the work and chance to continue playing SWM with people that enjoy it just as much, I would think you would feel that same about people that you have gotten to know over the years.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:07 pm 
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I'm reposting my previous reply, so that it doesn't get lost in the shuffle of the previous discussion (Btw, should "jonnyb815" have posted his comments in a separate topic and not on this post?)

Can someone post small pictures of all the Restricted maps? I recall someone posted map pics for competition purposes a few years back. Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:15 pm 
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There's a maplist that Kezzamachine made for swmresources - it's got nice little pictures of everything:

http://www.swmresources.com/downloads/MapListJanuary2013.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:10 pm 
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As a player who started during dark times and whos play group mostly started during Masters of the Force, this list is great. The WotC maps are hard to get but the others are much easier and affordable. This is great in my opinion.

+1 to the effort sir

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:23 pm 
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Could someone get the full updated doc from Brad and make it available it for download?

please and thank you :)


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:54 am 
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It came up in a play report from LowerHuttaCon13 that there is a square with missing wall lines on Cliffside Citadel, in addition to the pit lines previously noted. Image below for reference.

Attachment:
Copy of CliffsideCitadelPrinterCopycopy.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Am I the only one upset about the floor rules and think they are bad for the game and future?

Its like you guys dont care about the local players and just yourselves.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:47 pm 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
Am I the only one upset about the floor rules and think they are bad for the game and future?

Yes, I'm afraid so.

The floor rules are only necessary at Regionals and Gencon. If people don't want to use them, then that's fine. They are simply guidelines for those who want to have official competitive tournaments.

And as we've seen, there is at least one Regional that is ignoring part of the floor rules (by using all 3 map lists, rather than 1 of them).

jonnyb815 wrote:
Its like you guys dont care about the local players and just yourselves.

This is far too long of a conversation, and IMHO really not worth getting into, but I'll just say that Brad has requested feedback from ANYONE who would give it (even from "local players"--whatever that means). He has received very little (even from "local players"), and has accordingly made his decisions as best he could. I think he's done a good job with it, all things considered.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:30 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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How has Brad or the Vsets done a good job?

All of my friends dont play or play very little even Bill and Matt. Then add in Gunnar, John, Sean. We use to play every week in some level.

I think we need to get back to the basics and stop thinking all about top level play. I believe we are not seeing the whole picture.

I dont know or own many of the legal maps. I just want to play minis once or twice a year.

First we have way too many new minis for old players to need to learn. Second The maps are just too hard to follow what is legal and what is not. I am fine with change but this is silly. I have to pay hundreds of dollars to get all this maps and then spend 200-300 hours studying the los.

I dont have the time or will to do that anymore.

The game has changed to more a of fun game and if you guys are not seeing that then fine.

I think we are still all tied up on tier play.

Regionals are not for top level play anymore for the most part. They are the one time we can show how great our game is and get new,young and old players back.

This is the one time we can do that.

The big change in floor rules with the maps really hurts that.

That is a big reason why I sold all my minis and would love to come back but the map problem is just too big of a problem to try and get old players back.

I could easy get back 10-15 players if we would of gone to less vsets and all the changes.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:31 am 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
How has Brad or the Vsets done a good job?

All of my friends dont play or play very little even Bill and Matt. Then add in Gunnar, John, Sean. We use to play every week in some level.

I think we need to get back to the basics and stop thinking all about top level play. I believe we are not seeing the whole picture.

I dont know or own many of the legal maps. I just want to play minis once or twice a year.


You're looking only from your perspective. There's still a WOTC map on each list, and it's not hard to read Brad's list, so I don't know where your problem is. I don't own many of the WOTC maps, since I started playing after production finished so I really like that there are some new ones on there, which are much easier to obtain. And I think the map list is a good representation of the cream of the available maps.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:44 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Your not seeing the whole picture you guys have changed what minis were its not just an updated version anymore it's a whole new game. I which dean was still around at least this would of never happened,

The target was top level play from the beginning which is just not a good place to build from.

Just sucks this is what has happened to a game I loved and have only been good for two years.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:48 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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I was only good because I knew the maps and that edge is gone. Now I am just as good as the 15 year old that is amazing at his local meta.

Thanks for changing and destroying the meta because you all are bored.

It's just hard to get old players back with all the changes that's all I am trying to say. The learning curve is way too hard to over come and people just give up coming back.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:23 am 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
I was only good because I knew the maps and that edge is gone. Now I am just as good as the 15 year old that is amazing at his local meta.

Thanks for changing and destroying the meta because you all are bored.

It's just hard to get old players back with all the changes that's all I am trying to say. The learning curve is way too hard to over come and people just give up coming back.


I started around GenCon 2010, and while a bit simplistic, my impression was that there were two maps that 90% of the players used (Ravaged Base and Throne Room) and five basic squad archetypes that made up the entirety of the top and which were probably the only realistic contenders for the title (Solo Charge, Yobuck Swap, Lord Vader or Cad Bane with Mitt'Thrawn, Lancers, and Han Cannon). I like the current meta, with maybe 30-40 builds capable of winning a Regional, a lot better. In New Zealand we're generally seeing well established players with good records do well at the big events - you put the work in, you get the results. And I've never met any of you guys, but I recognise the names winning Regionals - it's people like Tim Ballard, Jason Kiernan, and Graham Bingham, not the 15 year old local kid.

Really, you wouldn't have been able to leave the game after say, The Force Unleashed set, play a couple of games, and compete at GenCon 2010. A lot changed - Dodonna, Yoda on Kybuck, Lancer, Mitt'Thrawn, Cad Bane, Jarael, Ganner, Anakin Solo - and plenty of other meta-changing pieces were released in that time period and would have taken some catching up with. Maybe the volume of top quality pieces has increased, but that's better than stuffing sets full of pointless filler that nobody cares about like Wizards did.

Really, I think the reason the v-sets have been so popular in New Zealand is that we don't have people who feel slighted that they were left out of the design/decision-making process - we mostly began playing towards the end of Wizards' run and don't feel like we have the expertise to contribute at a high level so we just sit back and enjoy the finished product, and enjoy being able to do our part in play-testing. I think it's hard to argue that the game isn't richer and more immersive than ever - most factions have a bunch of good squads now and you can play anything that suits your playstyle, rather than just the game revolving around tempo control and mass killers. 8 piece squads are good, 30 piece squads are good, Universe Kyle Katarn just won a Regional; the meta's great if you ask me. If there's a problem IMO, it's that a lot of the most dedicated American players are tied up producing (great) product rather than being able to promote the game locally and recruit players.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:46 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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you dont get it?

At Gencon all three map lists will be used.

It says for regionals and below only one on the list?
How is this good for local play so if you want to have a legal tournament no matter what you can only use one of the list this is crap.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:49 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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the art of maps has been lost thats my problem.

Studying and really knowing how a map was used for play was rare at best only 10% of the players even really studied the maps and new every shot like I did and a few others.

Brad thinks he is right and thats it.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:50 am 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
you dont get it?

At Gencon all three map lists will be used.

It says for regionals and below only one on the list?
How is this good for local play so if you want to have a legal tournament no matter what you can only use one of the list this is crap.


The Floor Rules are really only for Regionals and Gencon.

Look at the new sanctioning rules. You have Limited, which really should be called Unlimited now, that pretty much allows for any rules/maps/etc. that you want to use.

If it's going to be more like Regionals then it falls under constructed.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update (revised)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:52 am 
Big Bad Brad
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jonnyb815 wrote:
the art of maps has been lost thats my problem.

Studying and really knowing how a map was used for play was rare at best only 10% of the players even really studied the maps and new every shot like I did and a few others.

Brad thinks he is right and thats it.



I fail to see what's stopping you now?

Prior to this new map list, you would have been expected to know almost 20 maps in this manner.

Now it's 6-8.

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