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 Post subject: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:05 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Question what to do if a play needs to drop and cannot play in a playoff?

First I don't want to argue anything about the MI regional. If this happens I will delete that post or at least that part of the post. This is about moving forward and TOs know what to do.

Here are my thoughts.

Regionals
- If one of the top 4 players cannot play in the playoffs and states this before any games start, then that player drops out of the top four and the fifth player would move up. Obiviousally this would need to be done before the 5th, 6th, 7th, or 8th player leaves the venue.

-If a player wins the first round and drops before the final round, that players opponent would play in the final round. [I think this could possibly open things up for some shenanigans if we are not very careful. I would raise a red flag if two players rode together and one dropped and the other moved up.]

Gencon
- If a player/s have to drop out of the top 8 before playing any games the TOs must have a way to contact the next 8 players and let them know they have moved up. [This would mean getting the contact info for the top 16.] Players would move up till all 8 spots were filled.

- If a player drops after starting the first playoff game no players moves up to take his or her place.

Thoughts? Concerns? Questions?
Keep it constructive please.

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:56 am 
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After some thought about this topic, my initial 2 cents.

I think that I am behind moving players up if someone has to leave before the playoff rounds actually start, but this can also lead to potential issues as well. For instance if I finished 2nd and rode with the say 5th place finisher, I could drop out and let them move up because maybe I can't beat the third place squad or maybe I can't beat the squad that would emerge from the other semifinal, so I let my buddy make the top 4 because he has a better matchup or something crazy. With that said, I don't think that the players in our community would do such things, but I do know that it is competition so players sometimes do the unexpected.

I guess the alternative is to just give the person who leaves, a loss in the playoffs. This is probably the "fairest" way to do things, but seems unsatisfactory and unfulfilling for lots of reasons. I do remember being at I think the WI regional a few years back where one of the finishers had to leave and they moved up the 5th place guy and I didn't see any problem with it. I guess the real issue lies in the "reason" for leaving to an extent. If the person actually leaves, I have no problem with someone getting moved up, but if the person hangs around to watch or whatever, then I can see potential abuse (as outlined above) and would be in favor of just starting the game and then conceding.

Once the playoff rounds start, then no one moves up. If I win round 1 of the top 4 and then have to leave before the final, then congrats to the guy (or gal) who won the other semifinal because they get a free championship handed to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:29 am 
Master of the Order
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I agree with everything that's been said.

There is always an innate option to forfeit any game in the finals. We can't take that away.

The key thing here is that at least the opponent of whoever forfeits may play for the championship.

As far as someone dropping and someone else bumping up - that has to be a T/O or judge decision. Jason's guidelines above seem like good parameters to give a forfeit vs bumping anyone up.


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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:07 am 
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After thinking about this more, my initial thought was that the player would just drop and no one moves up for pretty much the same reasons Jason just stated. But if there is a death in the family or whatever the reason may be and I have to get out of there ASAP then that's different than just deciding I don't want to play. I think it should be a TO or judges decision to either let someone else move up or just to grant a win to the said opponent. I could see a lot of fairness issues arrise with just saying the 5th place guy moves up, so that is why I say whatever the TO/judge decides goes. If my opponent wants to leave but the 5th place guy's squad is a bad matchup for me, then I would think its unfair, but if the TO/judge says he moves up then fine, no complaining from me, I'll go with whatever he/they decide.

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:14 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Interesting discussion about this last night on SHNN.

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:45 am 
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Listening to this segment from the SHNN right now. I absolutely agree that the only result from someone needing to leave is that their opponent gets a win. It's the only thing that's both fair and eliminates the possibility for collusion and manipulation (which believe it or not, some people aren't above, in fact there was a big discussion about it last year). Lou makes my exact point on the SHNN; if you didn't earn your way into the top 4/8, you don't deserve to be in the top 4/8. Playoffs should be completely separate from the swiss rounds. The people who didn't make the playoff rounds shouldn't be considered at all during the playoff rounds; they aren't involved.

If there is a mass exodus and all of the top 4/8 decides to not play, having the final standings be just based on the swiss rounds is probably appropriate. The only fair thing would be either that or having there be NO winner, which is obviously undesirable. The 5th/9th player doesn't get to whine because he would have been willing to play; he didn't earn the right to try for the championship.

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:40 am 
Master of the Order
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I don't think it's ever been about anyone whining that didn't make the finals that they should get a chance to play. (Lol, I can guarantee you 5th place Lou was NOT whining about it!)

It's about the players who did make the top 4 wanting a chance to play minis.

I think it gets overlooked a lot that people actually want to play the game


Many people travel numerous hours for a chance to play minis. If they made the top 4 they have earned the right to play more games.

I know I have been at tournaments in the past where they arbitrarily decide to play one less round after it was announced how many rounds there would be, and I was upset. I felt like I had been cheated out of playing the game I love.

I am ultimately fine with a TO/judge deciding to simply make it a forfeit and their opponent moves on to the finals.

But what if the 3rd (or any of the top 4) wants to play more games? I think if I were a TO in this case, I would ask the remaining 3 how they would want to handle it. If they agree to bumping someone up then they should get that privilege. If they want to play more games, they should get to.

Here's how I think it should go:

If the judge catches wind that anyone in the top 4 is even considering not playing, go immediately to that person. Ask them directly if they are playing or dropping. That player must take 1 of those 2 options. If they choose to drop, gather all remaining top 4 players and ask them if they want to bump someone up or not. If it is a consensus to bump someone up, they do that. If not, then it's a forfeit. Ultimately the judge makes the call. Anything smells funny in the least, then no bump up.

With this method, you avoid collusion possibilities while allowing the top 4 to play games, which is what they came for.


What should NEVER happen (especially at a regional or GenCon) is players asking other players to just not play the final 4. Regardless of circumstance, no player should ever put that on another player. If a player is thinking about dropping, that is between that player and the TO/judge. Then the TO/judge handles it from there.


The player in this situation I feel the worst for is the one who made the top 4 but doesn't get to play because someone else wanted to leave. THAT more than anything is the unfair situation.


I also will bring up that it needs to be considered that since we have judges playing now, if any judges are one of the players in the final 4, they need to NOT be the ones making the decision. If there are a trio of judges (the excellent method used in MI, and planned on being followed at several other regionals), then one of the judges NOT in the top 4 makes the call. If all 3 are in, then the problem is already solved since they are the 3 remaining, and they can decide amongst themselves.


Finally, just as a general non-enforcable guideline - Plan on being there the whole day. Tournaments take a while. They frequently run longer than expected - it's sort of the nature of the beast. I know Scott made a difficult decision last weekend to not play at the Regional, because he had a conflict later that afternoon. I respect that. Obviously emergencies happen, and I am not referring to those. But when you come to a minis tournament, be ready to play all day and into the night. And if not, it's your own decision alone to drop or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:57 am 
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+1, Tim. I like the option to bump or not bump someone, because it takes into account any indications of collusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:05 am 
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I just think that any method of bumping a player up into the top 4 is unfair through and through. It's about integrity of the tournament. The top 4 isn't an arbitrary assignment, and if you don't make it then you don't make it. If a 5th place player gets put into the top 4 and then wins the tournament, I think there would be a big fat asterisk next to that win, since that player didn't even do well enough in the Swiss rounds to make the top 4. That should just be avoided entirely.

If someone wants to play more games, play an exhibition game against anybody you want to. Tournaments don't exist solely to give you a chance to play the game, they're more than that.

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:30 am 
Master of the Order
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Regardless, I think we're getting hung up on a secondary thing. It seems to me if the remaining top 4 AND the TO/judge agree, then it's their decision. But honestly, that part isn't the real issue.

The important thing is to never allow the finals NOT to be played because someone has to leave. THAT is the most important issue. The remaining top 4 have the right to compete for gold, and that should not be taken away.


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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:57 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Regardless, I think we're getting hung up on a secondary thing. It seems to me if the remaining top 4 AND the TO/judge agree, then it's their decision. But honestly, that part isn't the real issue.

The important thing is to never allow the finals NOT to be played because someone has to leave. THAT is the most important issue. The remaining top 4 have the right to compete for gold, and that should not be taken away.


If the top 4 and the TO can agree to bump up the 5th place person, why can't they agree to skip the playoffs and do final standings based on Swiss? Why does the TO and the players involved have the power to make one unfair decision but not another?

It might be the secondary thing to you, it's definitely the primary thing to me. Maybe it's because if I were in the situation where someone needed to leave but I wanted to stay and play I would have no problem whatsoever saying "Well, then you have to forfeit". Yeah, it sucks that that person would have to forfeit, but them's the breaks.


We need to either have strict rules about what the TO gets to decide and/or let happen or not. We shouldn't have strict rules saying that the finals MUST ALWAYS be played but then be super lenient on whether a 5th place (or lower) player can get bumped up and just let that be a TO decision. In the past we have allowed a lot of leniency to the TO, which I'm ok with. I think it's totally unfair and bad form to bump up the 5th place player, but if that's the the TO decided, then that's that, I guess. I also think it's unfair that the finals don't get played at all because one player has to leave, but if the TO decides that's what they're gonna do, then again, that's that.

On the other hand, if we want to start getting strict on how we enforce these situations (which I think is what this thread is about, or at least for discussing that), then lets get strict about all of it:

1) Playoffs must ALWAYS be played unless A) something uncontrolled and/or catastrophic happens (the venue being played in is closing, the venue being played in is burning down, whatever) or B) all of the top 4 have to leave for good reason (deciding to leave for not a good reason is tantamount to throwing the game and collusion/manipulation, and grounds for disqualification). If A or B happen, the results fall back to whatever the standings were at the latest point played.

2) Nobody EVER gets bumped up for any reason. If a player has to leave, or forfeits, or whatever, you don't change player positions because of that.

3) Throwing a game is manipulation of a tournament. Conceding a game because you know you're going to win is manipulation of a tournament. These things are collusion, and will result in a DQ.

4) People stalling in their game are burned at the stake.

I think picking and choosing what we require TOs to stick by is a bad idea. We need to either do all of the above and more (ok, I'm flexible on #4 :P), or just leave everything up to the TO's discretion. We've left everything to the TO and it's worked out so far, so I'm reasonably ok with that, although in all honesty I would rather codify everything and have everyone be more strict about everything, but that will probably never happen because that would require everybody agreeing on certain things that realistically won't be agreed upon.

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:29 am 
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Tourney results need to be based on games actually getting played, not on theoretical games. Did anyone think Trevor would steamroll Gerry's Naboo swarm at Gencon? I sure didn't, but if we were to theoretically play that game we would come to large piles of dudes with guns > small pile of dudes with swords. If someone in top 4 has to drop for legit reasons then they lose their round in the playoffs and the other game happens to see who plays in the final.

That's how I would prefer it anyway. After 4-5 hours of gaming, plus at least 2 hours of driving, and an hour lunch I'm just looking to see who wins so I can go home and sleep.

It should just be discussed at the start of the tourney from now on where everyone says we are going to do X if Y happens. Then there isn't any worry about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:37 am 
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Giving the TO 100% control causes big conflicts if the TO is in the final 4. Especially if the TO is sitting in 1st place after swiss. If you get a consensus of the TO AND the remaining of final 4, then there is no chance of unfairness. Everyone involved has agreed to the terms and it goes from there. Fallback will always be a simple forfeit with nobody bumping up.

To my knowledge there has never been a case where all 4 people in the finals didn't want to play. If that ever happened then I guess there's nothing anyone can do about it.

The point that seems to keep being missed, is that no pressure should ever be put on any player (intentionally or otherwise) to NOT play a game. It is the choice of each individual, and it should not even ever be discussed with the opponent. The individual decides, then they go to the TO/judge is they want to drop. The players left in the final 4 compete still.


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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:40 am 
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Weeks wrote:
Tourney results need to be based on games actually getting played, not on theoretical games. If someone in top 4 has to drop for legit reasons then they lose their round in the playoffs and the other game happens to see who plays in the final..


Completely fine with this

Weeks wrote:
It should just be discussed at the start of the tourney from now on where everyone says we are going to do X if Y happens. Then there isn't any worry about it.


Big +1 to this.

More than anything THIS is what I wanted to come out of this discussion. And I might add that it would be best mentioned even earlier than that - in the regional thread. That way if someone really doesn't like it (unlikely, but none-the-less) they don't waste a trip out.


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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:54 am 
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Quote:
Giving the TO 100% control causes big conflicts if the TO is in the final 4. Especially if the TO is sitting in 1st place after swiss. If you get a consensus of the TO AND the remaining of final 4, then there is no chance of unfairness. Everyone involved has agreed to the terms and it goes from there. Fallback will always be a simple forfeit with nobody bumping up.


1) "Unfairness" can still happen even if everyone agrees to it. Fairness isn't just the situation that makes everyone happy. The top 4 and the TO can all agree on something and that thing be unfair. I mean, isn't your whole point that it's unfair to not do the playoff just because one person has to leave? What if that is the consensus of the TO and the final 4? Does that suddenly become totally fair? (I don't really expect us to agree on this, I think you and I have different definitions of fairness)

2) This is the exact kind of problem that the TO playing creates, but that's an issue for a different thread. If you go with the triumvirate of judges idea, then obviously someone not involved would need to make the decision.


TimmerB123 wrote:
The point that seems to keep being missed, is that no pressure should ever be put on any player (intentionally or otherwise) to NOT play a game. It is the choice of each individual, and it should not even ever be discussed with the opponent. The individual decides, then they go to the TO/judge is they want to drop. The players left in the final 4 compete still.


I don't think that point is being missed, I just see it as a non-issue. If your opponent asks you "Hey, I have to leave, how about we just not play this thing?", I don't see anything wrong with that. If you're cool with not playing the game, then say that, and go talk to the TO about what to do about that. If you do want to play the game, say "Sorry, I really want to play this game, I'm not comfortable with not playing it". If your opponent has a problem with that, too bad, he's the one creating the situation.

Seriously, we're all adults, if someone feels pressured to not speaking out about something that they think is unfair then I don't empathize with them. If you think the situation you're in is unfair, say that. Don't just go along with it because you don't want to cause trouble.

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:24 pm 
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Echo wrote:
"Hey, I have to leave, how about we just not play this thing?"


Isn't that pretty much the definition of collusion?

Each individual should decide for themselves if they are playing or not. Then go to the Judge/TO if the decision is to drop.

Then the TO either gives a forfeit or bumps someone up (based on how it was already decided it would run and announced before the beginning of Swiss).


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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:32 pm 
Death Star Designers
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Echo wrote:
"Hey, I have to leave, how about we just not play this thing?"


Isn't that pretty much the definition of collusion?


No, not at all. If the response is "No, I still want to play", there isn't any collusion. If the response is "I'm ok with that, lets go talk to the TO and see how they want to handle this", there still isn't any collusion. If the response is "Ok, lets not play, and figure out how to handle this ourselves", then that would be manipulation of the tournament, yeah. As long as people go to the TO with the discussion things should be fine, but I don't think it's unreasonable to mention it to your opponent first. Hell, as a player I would WANT to be part of the conversation if my opponent doesn't want to play for whatever reason.

I agree that the solution should always be "play or forfeit", but see no reason whatsoever why both (or all in a playoff situation) players wouldn't be involved in that discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Echo wrote:
I agree that the solution should always be "play or forfeit"


It sounds that we actually agree on the core of the discussion. The details of the rest we may not.

I still believe that a player should never be in the position of, "If I say I want to play then I am a big asshole and people will be mad at me". Despite all the structure we try to apply, and how competitive we can get - at the end of the day most of us are friends. We don't want to be the jerk that ruins friendships. Maybe you would be fine with being that guy, but the point is that it should never come to that point in the first place. The TO should step in and say, "Do you want to play or not? If not, you forfeit". Not, "Well there's one guy that wants to leave, maybe we should all just not play." This issue is exacerbated when the TO is sitting in 1st place after swiss. Then it looks really bad if they encourage people to end it there. It's a lot of pressure to have the TO, the guy in first after swiss, and the guy wanting to leave all pressuring one guy to just not play the finals.

Of course, bringing all this to light will hopefully prevent it from ever happening again.


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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:58 pm 
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*shrug* I mentioned earlier in this thread that maybe it's because I have no problem being that guy, but I still see it as a non-issue. If you think something's unfair, just say that.

A much bigger issue to me is the idea of bumping people up from lower rankings. That's incredibly unfair in my opinion, and I have a serious problem with it. No organized competitive anywhere does that (Lou made the point on the SHNN that sometimes someone can't compete in a competition in the sports world, but then they get a forfeit, people don't move up), and we shouldn't, either. This was also the entire original point of this thread....

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 Post subject: Re: Regional and Gencon Process and Procedure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:29 pm 
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Echo wrote:
*shrug* I mentioned earlier in this thread that maybe it's because I have no problem being that guy, but I still see it as a non-issue. If you think something's unfair, just say that.

A much bigger issue to me is the idea of bumping people up from lower rankings. That's incredibly unfair in my opinion, and I have a serious problem with it. No organized competitive anywhere does that (Lou made the point on the SHNN that sometimes someone can't compete in a competition in the sports world, but then they get a forfeit, people don't move up), and we shouldn't, either. This was also the entire original point of this thread....



not quite true, the fight world moves people up all the time due to injuries/drop outs, contract disputes, etc, but it is up to the person that is willing to "fight" if they want to continue the fight with the new opponent or not.... maybe we could do that, lets say the person in 4th can't stay to play and the 5th place person can. IF the person that was supposed to play the 4th place person agrees to it, why not let the 5th place person play him? That way the person that earned his spot can decide to play the game or just take the forfeit, then if he loses it was his fault for playing the game.


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