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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:19 am 
Death Star Designers
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While I patiently wait for Cargo Docks to get removed...

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:32 am 
Master of the Order
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Cliff side has some obvious incorrect lines. Or rather a lack of lines. Namely the large pit just to the right, outside the center room, should be lined in orange. It is not.

It was the first thing that I noticed when I unfolded the map. Wow, this is wrong - how'd that get missed?

So - do we play as is, or how it should be?


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:42 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Cliff side has some obvious incorrect lines. Or rather a lack of lines. Namely the large pit just to the right, outside the center room, should be lined in orange. It is not.

It was the first thing that I noticed when I unfolded the map. Wow, this is wrong - how'd that get missed?

So - do we play as is, or how it should be?


It's also got beveled corners, which I hate...I got maybe five games in on this and never noticed the missing line. I assume it's missing because I always played it like a pit. None of the pter's who said anything about this map said that either....

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:25 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Cliff side has some obvious incorrect lines. Or rather a lack of lines. Namely the large pit just to the right, outside the center room, should be lined in orange. It is not.

It was the first thing that I noticed when I unfolded the map. Wow, this is wrong - how'd that get missed?

So - do we play as is, or how it should be?


It's also got beveled corners, which I hate...I got maybe five games in on this and never noticed the missing line. I assume it's missing because I always played it like a pit. None of the pter's who said anything about this map said that either....


It's the same artwork (seeing the cliffs below) as the other pits - so I assume it is as well . . . but the question remains how do we rule on it.

I guess we should confirm with jedicartographer that it is a mistake, and see if he can make a fix.

Otherwise I think we have to play it as no terrain


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:37 am 
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Just my opinion, but seems pretty clear it is a mistake.

I also think map erratas (including this if Matt confirms) should go into the floor rules.
edit: I only mean list them, with links to where they can be viewed

Echo can host the fixes on swmresources.com (WotC maps are covered by requiring the corrected league kit versions, errata/fixes would have to do here)

(I have the Theed/Cantina fixes on my Skydrive share now)


Last edited by swinefeld on Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:42 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The Standard lists is now clarified to include anything not on the open list, including maps printed between rules updates.


This puzzles me to be honest. Why make standard the default and not open? Any new crap map automatically goes to the list that is actually used at some tournaments and could be abused. For that matter ANY map not listed

Theoretically what is to stop someone from making their own map, printing it, and using it in a standard list tournament?

What are the criteria for a map being considered on any list? Must it be printed by jedicartographer/armoredgear7 or Maps of Mastery . . . or is anyone else's maps eligible?

There are a lot of ludicrous maps out there, and they have all just been included on the standard list (if I am to understand correctly).

Someone could make a map with crayons and play in most tournaments at GenCon with it.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:27 pm 
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While I patiently wait for Cargo Docks to get removed...


+1 and Old Casino to get some love.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:39 pm 
Master of the Order
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TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The Standard lists is now clarified to include anything not on the open list, including maps printed between rules updates.


This puzzles me to be honest. Why make standard the default and not open? Any new crap map automatically goes to the list that is actually used at some tournaments and could be abused. For that matter ANY map not listed

Theoretically what is to stop someone from making their own map, printing it, and using it in a standard list tournament?

What are the criteria for a map being considered on any list? Must it be printed by jedicartographer/armoredgear7 or Maps of Mastery . . . or is anyone else's maps eligible?

There are a lot of ludicrous maps out there, and they have all just been included on the standard list (if I am to understand correctly).

Someone could make a map with crayons and play in most tournaments at GenCon with it.



I think I see what happened. The list you have as "Open" are actually the Standard list maps.

So does this mean that there was confusion and it was intended to have every other map make the OPEN list?

If it is accurate as written then my initial post stands

Brad - if you can confirm one way or the other.

If it is intended to have a specific Standard List, and everything else falls to the Open list and it was Typos/confusion then I apologize for sounding the alarms and fully support that decision.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:52 pm 
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The closer I look the more confused I get. Most of the old Standard and Open maps are listed under the open category.

Definitely need some clarification please


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:15 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
The closer I look the more confused I get. Most of the old Standard and Open maps are listed under the open category.

Definitely need some clarification please


Copy and paste error on my part. I grabbed the entirety of the standard list and pasted it along with Open. Fixed in first post.

Keep in mind, Open is every map save 2.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:26 pm 
Master of the Order
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
The closer I look the more confused I get. Most of the old Standard and Open maps are listed under the open category.

Definitely need some clarification please


Copy and paste error on my part. I grabbed the entirety of the standard list and pasted it along with Open. Fixed in first post.

Keep in mind, Open is every map save 2.


Then my first post stands.

Why on Earth would we allow any untested map to enter the standard list?

We use the standard list for the Jedi Challenge.

I really think the default should be the Open list and the Standard list should be listed and specific.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:42 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Honestly, our two mapmakers aren't making Open maps and no one plays the Open Map list. If it falls into Open, no one plays(tests) it.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:22 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Honestly, our two mapmakers aren't making Open maps and no one plays the Open Map list. If it falls into Open, no one plays(tests) it.


I fear it may open up another can of worms. Those are the only two mapmakers allowed (it doesn't state this in the rules, and if that's the rule it needs to be stated).

New good maps would get moved up once analyzed either way.


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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:38 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:

The Restricted Map lists are as follows:

Restricted A------------------Restricted B------------------Restricted C
(The Civilian Sector)---------(Tatooine)-------------------(Hidden Bases)

Cloud City (WotC)-----------Rancor Pen (WotC)-----------Cmndr’s Office (WotC)
Night Club (WotC)-----------Jabba’s Palace (JC)-----------Grand Plaza (WotC)
Peaceful City (JC)------------Anchorhead (JC)--------------Asteroid Base (JC)
Theed Palace (JC)------------Cantina (JC)------------------Rhen Var Citadel (JC
Offworld Shipping (MoM)-----Cliffside Citadel (JC)----------Bothan Spynet (JC)
Offworld Cargo (MoM)--------Simulation Deck (MoM)-------Command Deck (MoM)


i like this and the combinations. Love to see nightclub on there, always been a big fan. Good list, love the idea.

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The Open Map list is as follows:

Any Restricted or Standard map

Standard Maps list is as follows

All the Restricted Maps
Clone Wars Battles Muunilinst Commerce Plaza map
Knights of the Old Republic poster Taris Undercity map
Battle of Hoth Echo Base Outpost map
Attack on Endor Bunker map
Clone Strike Ultimate Missions Geonosis Arena Pit map
Revenge of the Sith Ultimate Missions Mustafar Plateau map
The Clone Wars starter Christophsis map
Clone Wars Battles Christophsis (Intact) map
Star Wars Miniatures 2007 starter Korriban map
Legacy of the Force Ossus Landing Platform map
The Clone Wars Map Pack Nelvaan Snow Fields map
The Clone Wars Map Pack Teth Courtyard map
The Clone Wars Map Pack Crystal Caves of Ilum
The Clone War Map Pack Coruscant Streets Map
The Clone Wars Map Pack Teth Monastery map
Jedi Enclave (JC Map Pack 1)
Echo Base (JC Map Pack 1)
Ugnaught Mines (JC Map Pack 2)
Mustafar (JC Map Pack 2 )
Khoonda (JC Map Pack 2)
Kashyyk Treetop City (JC Map 2)
Mos Eisley Town Hall (JC Map Pack 3)
Yavin Sanctuary (JC Map Pack 3)
Royal Palace (JC Map Pack 4)
Grand Atrium (JC Map Pack 4)
Desert Sanctum (MM MoM 2)
Badlands (MM MoM 4)

The following maps are not legal in any competitive format:

AT-AT Imperial Walker Deflector Shield Generator map
AT-AT Imperial Walker Hoth Plateau map

Any Map not listed in the previous tables, as well as any map contained in the Restricted Map lists, or that is printed between rules updates will fall under the Open map list


Surely this is the wording. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:09 am 
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Just to clarify my sentence above

Currently, as you have worded the floor rules there is no distinction between standard and open

These two sentences make Open and Standard the same list.

Quote:
The Open Map list is as follows:

Any Restricted or Standard map


Quote:
Any Map not listed in the previous tables, as well as any map contained in the Restricted Map lists, or that is printed between rules updates will fall under the Standard Map list.


So the open list is any restricted or standard map.

Any map not mentioned is standard.

Open is therefore a redundant format. Thus, there is no point compiling a list after the restricted format.

As i always understood
Restricted = competitive
Standard = Most maps bar a few really bad ones (Korriban etc)
Open = all of them bar Hoth.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:59 pm 
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Restricted is listed.

The named maps in the Open Category are maps only available to Open.

All others are standard. Standard being defined as any map not specifically named on the Open or Restricted List, plus any map on the Restricted list. Only the wording of it has changed.

Standard has always encompassed Restricted. Open has always enveloped Restricted and standard. Nothing has changed, but given the flux/shifting of maps between Standard and Restricted I did it this way to simplify it so I'm not costantly shifting the written lists, which is a pain. Open will likely never have another map added to it. A new map comes out, it's Standard. I review it, put it on Restricted the next update and take another one off, the only map list (text-wise) that I'm changing is the Restricted one.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:10 pm 
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It would be nice to see a list of what's on the Standard List, since it's used at GenCon. Maybe someone can compile that list?

I do think that Standard needs to be defined, though. For one thing, you don't have any qualification for maps that are not listed. One of our local players made a map recently in his spare time for fun; by no means is it even close to playable, but it's in my queue of stuff that I need to get around to uploading to SWMResources. Once it's uploaded, there will be a high quality version available for anyone to print. Will that be a Standard map? If not, why? There certainly isn't anything in the floor rules saying it can't be.

You can't even just say that it's only maps by WotC, Matt Francella, or Chris West. What if I bring a WotC D&D map? It's the same scale and everything. Or what if I bring a map that Chris West makes specifically not for competitive SWM play? Do I get to play it in the Jedi Challenge?

Or hell, what if I bring a Heroclix map? I know that's a bit of an extreme example, but as written the floor rules for maps are VERY open to interpretation. You don't have a definition of "maps", and the way you've written them you absolutely need it. I don't know how you would define it, though, since I already pointed out that you can't just allow all WotC, Francella, or West maps, and you can't do something like say it's any map labelled for SWM play (because what would that even mean?).

Yeah, writing out all 3 lists would be difficult, but I don't see a way around that. Or at least write out Restricted and Standard and leave Open as anything else (although if any event does ever choose to use the Open list written like that, there could very easily be issues). If it's too much trouble, I'm sure somebody would be able to help maintain the lists or do it in your stead.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:40 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Okay, so I guess I'll take out the wording on published maps. Sooooo much for me getting any playtests yet again....but yeah, I don't care enough to try to figure out how to word maps because, as Daniel stated, I don't see a way to do it without someone purposely trying to be an ass about it. The Floor Rules have shifted over the years to a "spirit of the law" rather than a "letter of the law" mentality, but in some cases I guess we're not going to let that work with ridiculous loopholes. I really thought the key word in this was "published" and I'm somewhat surprised that you're adding stuff like that to your site. Published, while easier to define....eh. Doesn't seem like it's worth the effort.

I'll have to rework the lists, the original file from like 2009?? had some table on it that would no longer allow me to edit new maps into it in the same style as the rest. Either way, straight list or table the map lists were getting to take up 3 pages.

Now what I could do that doesn't save space but makes it look "cleaner/neater" is attach the map lists as appendices rather than directly into the body of the rules themeselves? There is a lot more room for error in copying/pasting in later updates as maps shift between Restricted/Standard and heaven help the fury that reigns down on me when I leave a map on two lists....

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:00 pm 
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It's being added to the site because it's a really beautiful map that would be great for RPGs and/or scenario play. I'm also adding a new set of SWM-based RPG rules (similar to Fool's SWM Campaign Edition) that it could be used with.

Having the maps be in an appendix of the floor rules is a good idea. And like I said, I'm sure someone else would be willing to help with formatting the list and such.

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 Post subject: Re: January 15th, 2013 Floor Rules Update
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:01 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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First post fixed. The Appendices are done but I think the first post would look crowded and these need to be uploaded to the site anyway, so whoever's going to do that can have me email them the document.


I'm sure if there are errors they will be quick to be pointed out.

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