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 Post subject: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:45 am 
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I know they are called "Mandalorian Protectors" But I don't recall hearing about them ever actually protecting anyone. It's a shame that madalorians got that Shysa guy's commander effect first. It would have made so much more sense in a Senate Guard theme...

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Wikipedia wrote:
With the Empire gone, the Mandalorian Protectors became literal protectors, establishing a patrolled border around Mandalorian space where they acted as a home guard.



That took me all of 30 seconds to find.


Research first, complain second.

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:09 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:
With the Empire gone, the Mandalorian Protectors became literal protectors, establishing a patrolled border around Mandalorian space where they acted as a home guard.



That took me all of 30 seconds to find.


Research first, complain second.


Eh, not good enough. Since when does "we patrol our borders" denote the bodyguard ability? What military force in the StarWars universe doesn't defend their territory?

I mean by that definition you may as well give Bodyguard to Clone Troopers, Battle Droids, Black Sun Vigos. Maybe a few vong.....

Generally the bodyguard ability is only really given to literal bodyguards (Human Bodyguard, Senate Guards, Royal Guards) or unique characters who show great devotion to somebody (Visas Mar, Chewbacca.)

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:10 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:
With the Empire gone, the Mandalorian Protectors became literal protectors, establishing a patrolled border around Mandalorian space where they acted as a home guard.



That took me all of 30 seconds to find.


Research first, complain second.


So the first part of Brads research means nothing to you? Becoming literal protectors is close enough to bodyguard for me and I believe most. Plus, I will always trust Brads research over some random unhappy senete guard fanboy.
You say it's a shame that the Mando's got that Shysa guys CE first. The Mandolorians are the worst faction in the game right now, and your going to complain over a unique idea that they get. So what you what the Mando's to copy off of every other faction and have no direction of their own? I'd much rather the Mando's get some new and unique ideas of their own, which they did.

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:13 pm 
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SenateCommando wrote:

Eh, not good enough. Since when does "we patrol our borders" denote the bodyguard ability?


Since August this year when Scum & Villiany was released.

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:18 pm 
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The funny thing is, I was zeroing in on the words "home guard" which is precisely what the Senate Commandos are...

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:03 am 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
Plus, I will always trust Brads research over some random unhappy senete guard fanboy.


Two things here.

First, I get that this is a close-nit community of more serious and competitive Starwars minis players. And you want to trust your buddy Brad because he's Brad! and I'm just some random other person. fine. Way to welcome newer members. *golfclap*

I mean try being a little open minded. Does "I believe Brad because he is Brad! and all who disagree are wrong by default." sound right to you? At least put some kind of counterpoint to the support I gave for my opinion.

Second; Fanboy? Do ya realize this is a site for fanboys of a game designed for fanboys of StarWars? So what part of "senete guard fanboy" do you intend to be offensive? I am assuming everybody here is some denomonation StarWars fanboy after all right? Don't be hating on my Senate Commandos.

sthlrd2 wrote:
The Mandolorians are the worst faction in the game right now, and your going to complain over a unique idea that they get. So what you what the Mando's to copy off of every other faction and have no direction of their own? I'd much rather the Mando's get some new and unique ideas of their own, which they did.


I keep hearing that but I am not seeing it. especially with these virtual sets. What don't mandalorians have? every level of non-unique shooter from cheap cannon fodder to serious commando types half of which have cloaked. They have commanders to grant them; evade, mobile, twin, attack boosting, boxcar gum which is Dark armor but better, Accurate Shot, Big jedi, ways to hose jedi, Traps. They jack abilities from Mon Mothma, wicket, Elite Rebel Commandos and Imperial Knights now. I mean the only thing I can think of that they lack is Thrawn Swap and something crazy like Lancer Droids. And for that I say "just give it time." You guys will give them swapping at some point I have little doubt. I can only assume this new take on the Basilisk War Droid will turn out pretty Lancery.

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The funny thing is, I was zeroing in on the words "home guard" which is precisely what the Senate Commandos are...


Actually that would be these guys Image

Senate Guards/Commandos literally are bodyguards for the Senate. Nobody except maybe the Emperor's Royal Guards are more bodyguardy than them. And that's debatable since they don't actually have the ability "Bodyguard". If you are going to add some cool ability related to bodyguard to the game it seems only logical that the bodyguards should get it. Right?

You want to give Mandalorians some unique theme? Fine. But I would suggest making it one that actually fits Mandalorian ideals. I mean they have been raiding and brutalizing the galaxy for Millennia for no other reason than because they like it.

At their very highest point they were honest mercenaries.

Only mandalorians that I could see having bodyguard are the guards who follow around Duchess Satine in her clone wars episodes.
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But I get the impression that we won't be seeing much of them. The mandalorian fanboys didn't seem to take kindly to pacifist Mandalorians.

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:02 am 
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Wow, this is quite the thread. :? Slowing it down a little, here's a comment from the design perspective:

Designers look first at what a faction needs, and then also at what would be interesting and flavorful pieces to introduce to the game for that faction. Then we try to blend those two things into a piece which will hopefully accomplish both goals. I personally thought that the research Brad referenced was good enough reason to make Mando bodyguards, but I haven't read all of the source material either, so maybe my opinion shouldn't count. But no matter how carefully the designers put things together, we will never be able to satisfy everyone.

I think the main thing to take away from this conversation is that every single SWM character is an abstraction...that is, every SWM character is an amalgamation of various Stats, SAs, FPs, and CEs which exist in the SWM game and which seem to make sense on that character. No SWM character will ever perfectly fit the source material, nor should it need to.

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:50 pm 
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I trust Brad not because he is Brad but because he has shown and proven time and time again to be extremly good at finding and stating research that shows his point. I found that 1 clip that he posted good enough and so did 'thereisnotry' as stated in his post.
Fanboy, well yes we all are to some extent but I don't believe that just because I like a certain character more than others that, that character should be so awesome and have everything I want him to have in the game. Judging off of your name and your posts and this thread, your upset because someone else got something that you think your precious senete commandos should have got. Yes I do have my favorite characters but in terms of SWM and it's gameplay, I don't let my fanboy come out. This is a game and gameplay comes first for me.
Mandos are the worst faction in the competative game. They don't have a movement breaker or a low cost good and useful scrub. That's to name a few. Mandos have a lot of mid and high cost scrubs. There expensive and can't seem to fit everything you need to compete in the game today. A simple way to put it. What ever the Mandos can do, another faction can do a lot better right now.
Fenn Shysa's CE is one that other factions don't have right now, and I for one am happy that they got a unique idea of there own even if it won't be the piece they need to put them on the competative map.

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:07 pm 
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Well to answer your question Mandalorians got that ability because we thought it fit the theme we were going for and honestly, it's really cool and unique. Personally, I think Senate Commando's already have plenty of tricks and options to work with, and that they don't need a Fenn Shysa type CE to be good. You're welcome to disagree of course. Improving Senate Commando's is so far down on the to do list I don't think it has been added.

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:08 am 
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sthlrd2 wrote:

Mandos are the worst faction in the competative game. They don't have a movement breaker or a low cost good and useful scrub.


This isn't entirely true. Mandalore the Vindicated gave the Mando's a movement breaker. The new Mando Seargant gave the Mando's a movement breaker. Mandalore the Vindicated gave the faction a disruptive peice who is hard to kill and can do some serious damage, especially when you roll crits. Fenn Shysa gave the faction a almost auto-include peice. Seriously, a body guard who can shoot back at enemies damaging your key pieces and have beskargame is quite a steal at his cost.I think the Mando Sabetour is a great scrub for the faction. Traps is great and it has satchel charge as well. No need to have uggies anymore! So I'm not sure how you say they are the worst faction in the competitive game right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:21 am 
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There's no doubt the Mandos have some great pieces. All of the ones that you list are indeed very good. However, they still aren't showing up at the top tables. What they currently lack is a way to build a solid squad that can consistently handle the solid squads from other factions. All of these pieces you list are parts of the engine that we're trying to build, to help the Mandos become competitive. There are more coming.... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:51 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:


Well, more diplomatically said than the rest of the things said around here. I still think that a mando bodyguard who buffs bodyguards makes about as much sense as a sith with Force Heal or Dispassionate Killer. But I accept your explanation.

sthlrd2 wrote:
I trust Brad not because he is Brad but because he has shown and proven time and time again to be extremly good at finding and stating research that shows his point.


He's been good at it in the past so his judgement can not be questioned. Right...got it.

sthlrd2 wrote:
Yes I do have my favorite characters but in terms of SWM and it's gameplay, I don't let my fanboy come out. This is a game and gameplay comes first for me.


So you think your better than me because you're love of the game is more generalized and you will happily ditch the spirit of the game for it's mechanics. Yeah, THAT makes sense.

sthlrd2 wrote:
Fenn Shysa's CE is one that other factions don't have right now, and I for one am happy that they got a unique idea of there own even if it won't be the piece they need to put them on the competative map.


Manalorians also got "rout" with whatshisface. That was pretty unique. Difficult to pull off but wholly devastating when it happens.

Weeks wrote:
Improving Senate Commando's is so far down on the to do list I don't think it has been added.


Well thanks to you guys I need to be dealing with Storm Commandos who are effectively the same exact thing as my Senate Commandos except with Super Stealth, Satchel Charge, lower cost, doctorine of fear from their commander who also super stealths around and Master Tactician from Thrawn.

I'd appreciate a bone thrown my way at some point. The virtual sets have done nothing for me except replace my ugnaughts with Spaarti Clones.

obikenobi1 wrote:


Glad somebody else is saying it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:34 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
sthlrd2 wrote:
Yes I do have my favorite characters but in terms of SWM and it's gameplay, I don't let my fanboy come out. This is a game and gameplay comes first for me.


So you think your better than me because you're love of the game is more generalized and you will happily ditch the spirit of the game for it's mechanics. Yeah, THAT makes sense.



I never once said I was better than you. I never even thought I insinuated towards that. Not my intent or place to say I am better than someone who I don't Personnsly know. Even if I do know them on a personal level, not my place.
As Gandalf said to Frodo in LotR
"There are people who die, that deserve life and people that live who derserve death. Can you give it to them Frodo."
Not the exact quote, but you get the point.

I don't really think its the spirt of the game to give our favorite characters everything we want them to have. IMO I think the game would be broken and die fast if we did that. Just my opinion, you can disagree if you feel otherwise. If that is the Spirit of the game, then yes I will ditch my fanboy side and the Spirit of the game for Mechanics and to keep the game alive and going. I just thought it was more in the spirit of the game to keep it alive for as long as possible. Which is all I'm trying to do.

As far as the Mandos are concerned, (and this is just my opinion) yes they have pieces that are good, but judging from a competative mindset, they just don't have it yet. My statement still stands (as far as I'm concerned) that whatever the Mandos can do, another faction can do better. Mandalore the Vindicated has yet to be proven in a competative scene. Maybe I'm wrong, I would love to be proven wrong. The training seargent with his battle ready. I'm sorry but I don't count a one time use before the game even begins as a movement breaker. I would love to see the Mandos compete with all the others (as I want all the factions to compete) but I just don't see it yet. But as Trevor pointed out, they are getting more help, I can just hope it's enough help to make them cross that line into the competative arena.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:44 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
I'd appreciate a bone thrown my way at some point. The virtual sets have done nothing for me except replace my ugnaughts with Spaarti Clones.


And that is one opinion. In my view, Senate Commandos don't particularly need anything. And I can assure you, I'm a big fan of bringing out older pieces, even if it isn't to the competitive level. I knocked a good chunk of figs I wanted to see returned out of the box of darkness in V5. I would work on boosting the Senate Guards before the Commandos. Red Senate Guards are on my list of characters to make.

And even then. There are far older pieces and themes for the Republic that I would like to see boosted before the Commandos.

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:12 pm 
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There's also a school of thought out there, which I think is reasonable, that the Republic are already one of the most powerful factions, and that they don't really need another Tier 1 option at this point. Senate Commandos are already pretty solid - a bit of extra power and they could be Tier 1 easily.

The Republic got three completely different squad types (GOWK/Mace, Naboo, Skybuck) into the top 8 at GenCon this year.

Is Senate Commandos vs Storm Commandos the Star Wars equivalent to Pirates vs Ninjas?


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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:35 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
And that is one opinion. In my view, Senate Commandos don't particularly need anything. And I can assure you, I'm a big fan of bringing out older pieces, even if it isn't to the competitive level. I knocked a good chunk of figs I wanted to see returned out of the box of darkness in V5. I would work on boosting the Senate Guards before the Commandos. Red Senate Guards are on my list of characters to make.

And even then. There are far older pieces and themes for the Republic that I would like to see boosted before the Commandos.


Yeah, Senate guards could use more incentive to use. At 200 points I usually just field one to stick the that flying R2D2. Red Senate Guards? So Palpatine's Royal Guards in republic era? Could be fun though I would request that they don't overshadow the blue ones. I like the look of my uniformly blue squad and would hate to see something new for the squad that changes it's asthetic completely. (some reds in with the blues would be cool though.) Senate characters should really get shysa's ability though. Other than that I'm full of ideas and suggestions on the subject.

TheHutts wrote:
There's also a school of thought out there, which I think is reasonable, that the Republic are already one of the most powerful factions, and that they don't really need another Tier 1 option at this point. Senate Commandos are already pretty solid - a bit of extra power and they could be Tier 1 easily.


Could try making a new version of Argyus but give him stealth, traps, Rapport to lower the cost of senate commandos by 2, lower his cost by 1 and add Stealth and Damage reduction 10 to his commander effect. Then he'd be like a slightly crappier good guy Weir!

TheHutts wrote:
The Republic got three completely different squad types (GOWK/Mace, Naboo, Skybuck) into the top 8 at GenCon this year.


Naboo? That's a compedative squad? Explain.

TheHutts wrote:
Is Senate Commandos vs Storm Commandos the Star Wars equivalent to Pirates vs Ninjas?


Yeah, but more one-sided.

Makes me wish I had more than one Rodian Senator dude. *sigh

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:04 am 
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Mon Mothma
Captain Panaka of Theed
Mas Amedda
Queen Amidala
R2
Wicket
Yularen
Hordes of Naboo Troopers (14 I think)

Your 5 point shooter is now shooting at a respectable +9 att with opp dealing 30 damage a shot with twin and when they die they get a another twin the first one at +10 damage.

Gerry took this squad to the T4 of Gencon this year. It is very good. It should thump storm commandos every time. It's only true weakness is disruptive or ABM and the fact that the guys don't attack very high.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:06 am 
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SenateCommando wrote:
Red Senate Guards? So Palpatine's Royal Guards in republic era? Could be fun though I would request that they don't overshadow the blue ones. I like the look of my uniformly blue squad and would hate to see something new for the squad that changes it's asthetic completely. (some reds in with the blues would be cool though.) Senate characters should really get shysa's ability though. Other than that I'm full of ideas and suggestions on the subject.
Sorry, but color aesthetics is probably the very last consideration taken into account when designing new pieces. :)

SenateCommando wrote:
Naboo? That's a compedative squad? Explain.

Like Gerry's squad that urbanjedi posted above, this squad destroys most things other than OR Bastilla squads and strong Disruptive squads (and it can still beat them too).

--Naboo Deathshots--
23 Mon Mothma
21 Admiral Yularen
20 Captain Panaka of Theed
20 Commander Gree
16 Queen Amidala
18 Naboo Pilot x2
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
50 Naboo Trooper x10
4 Rodian Diplomat
8 Spaarti Clone Trooper Demolitionist x2
3 Mouse Droid

(200pts. 23 activations)

When a non-unique dies, it gets Twin Deathshots for 30+dmg...and they can already do plenty good damage before dying too.


The Republic has plenty of good squad options, so they'll probably be getting the least amount of help in the next few V-Sets.

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 Post subject: Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:47 pm 
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SenateCommando wrote:
I keep hearing that but I am not seeing it. especially with these virtual sets. What don't mandalorians have? every level of non-unique shooter from cheap cannon fodder to serious commando types half of which have cloaked. They have commanders to grant them; evade, mobile, twin, attack boosting, boxcar gum which is Dark armor but better, Accurate Shot, Big jedi, ways to hose jedi, Traps. They jack abilities from Mon Mothma, wicket, Elite Rebel Commandos and Imperial Knights now. I mean the only thing I can think of that they lack is Thrawn Swap and something crazy like Lancer Droids. And for that I say "just give it time." You guys will give them swapping at some point I have little doubt. I can only assume this new take on the Basilisk War Droid will turn out pretty Lancery.


hey dude,

Every faction has a lot of tricks and the mando's are no exception. If you follow the design of the game since inception you'll see that abilites have been passed around different factions since the beginning. Imps had thrawn swap, then republic got it and sith even. But just because a faction gets it doesn't mean its functional. Sith swap has never been competitive. As a side note, its generally accepted among vset designers that Mandos won't get swap.
Their mantra is fire power.
No faction can bring the heat with guns like the mando's. The also have a lot of guerrilla tactics (cloaked, traps, black ops, death shots etc). They do have some up close melee beats but they generally pale in comparison to Jedi.

Its all about the guns with the mandos.


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You want to give Mandalorians some unique theme? Fine. But I would suggest making it one that actually fits Mandalorian ideals. I mean they have been raiding and brutalizing the galaxy for Millennia for no other reason than because they like it.



what do you think that should be?
As I said above, they've been designed as the "shooty" faction because that's what they were, well armed mercs.

BTW - when people talk of them being the "weakest" faction its because tournament results show that they are the weakest.

Never gen con top 8
they've won one regional, ever.

The only faction who challenges the bottom like Mando's, is the vong.

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