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 Post subject: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Instead of Lumiya, this time you get Caedus to bring in Vergere!

--A Caedus of Immortality--
54 Darth Caedus, Sith Lord
48 Darth Zannah
30 Vergere
27 Darth Bandon
27 Lobot
14 Exar Kun, Dark Force Spirit

(200pts. 6 activations)

Caedus can do 80 dmg (or 100 if you put sith rage on him) before people activate in a round, and then if you win init, you can follow up with another 80dmg. Caedus becomes a pain to kill, since you can use Vergere to put VCA 6 on him. Zannah is just plain hard to kill also, and if you put Sith Rage on her, she becomes a very nice damage dealer. Use Lobot to bring in various scrubs. I'd prefer 2 uggie demos and 2 uggnaught droid destroyers, so that you can use jolt on tough targets within 6 of Kun and force them to try to roll 15's to avoid activation. Thoughts? Suggestions? I welcome both!

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Cool concept, but with only 6 acts (up to 12) and only 2 real damage dealers, I wonder if your survivability will be enough to keep you around for those attackers to finish the job.

Give it some playtests and see how it works. I do like the lower activation squads, though.

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:36 pm 
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6 Base activations in a Sith squad without Sith Sorcery is asking for trouble. My big problem is that you are way to dependent on Caedus for your damage output. Zannah needs to back some some bigger damage dealers.

Vergere is an annoyance to me. You want Caedus to be hit a few times. Once he gets low on HP, you start using Master Illusion to keep him going. And you really don't want to be healing him.

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:34 am 
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I playtested my aforementioned Caedus of Immortality squad, and it preformed quite well. I like how Caedus is his own movement breaker. Zannah and Caedus are tanks. Vergere provides healing to either and that is not bad in the long run. If someone kills Vergere, just drop off the force points to either Zannah/Caedus and reap the rewards. The reason I had VCA 6 put on Caedus is because Zannah already has Force Bubble and can live for a long time with SSM. Jacen needs more survivability to use his force powers to more effect. Sith Battle Meditation is huge! It really benefited my squad a lot when i used it. I can see it completely destroying a Mace/GOWK squad. Still, I do realize that having ranged is really good with SBM also, so I had another squad made that has a few more activations, and slightly more damage output.


--Darth Caedus and crew--
54 Darth Caedus, Sith Lord
36 Atton "Jaq" Rand
30 Vergere
27 Lobot
16 Galactic Alliance Special Guard
16 Grand Admiral Rulf Yage
14 Exar Kun, Dark Force Spirit
4 Peace Brigade Thug
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(199pts. 9 activations)


Any suggestions on tweaking either squad more?

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:19 am 
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I let my friend test my Caedus of Immortality squad against me on Sunday to see how it would fair against the Mace squad that won Gencon this year. GOWK/Mace stood little chance against it. I even rolled a crit with Mace on Zannah (which did manage to get past Zannah's SSM) doing a bunch of damage, but even so, it was really hard to put damage on Caedus with his Makashi Style Mastery/VCA 6/Illusuion. Caedus is an absolute tank. Rex did a good job of getting some damage on Caedus, and Mace never missed on his hits on Caedus, but the defense of Caedus/Zannah is very difficult to bypass. GOWK died in one round to an Aing Ting Flow walking Caedus on a won init for the sith. Caedus doing 200 damage on a won init, is insane and overlooked. This guy is a powerhouse who won't miss, especially when he takes more damage. Vergere is annoying, since you don't want to kill her cause she'd give MTF 3 to either Caedus or Zannah, but then again if you leave her alone, she heals Zannah/Caeudus and can Sever the Force from someone as well. Next time I playtest this squad, I'm going to see how it fares against a all shooter squad like an IG-86 swarm. But for now, this squad destroys melee squads, and can handle Lancer's quite well.

People may be thrown off by the low activations of this squad, but look at the Mace squad that won Gencon. It didn't have a ton of activations either. It had a a couple of movement breakers, and thats why it did so well. Caedus is his own movement breaker, and that is why this squad works surprisingly well from what I've seen. Caedus can move 24 squares in one round with Aing Ting Flow walking or 12 and follow up with a double sith rage cunning attack for 100 dmg. Winning init is huge, and I've been thinking that putting a Muun Tactics broker in with a few Sith Recruits might be worthwhile. I'd have to change the squad up a bit to do it, but winning every init when you have Caeudus is really good.

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:50 am 
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The Caedus/Zannah squad is definitely a tank squad, which by definition doesn't need a lot of activations. The thing is, though: you'll get eaten up by solid shooters because it lacks shooters of its own.

As an example, Hinkbert and I both played Mace/GOWK at Gencon. However, whereas I beat Darph Nader's Soviet Trooper Swarm twice (the 2nd win was very convincing), Hinkbert lost convincingly to the same Trooper Swarm in the Quarterfinals...he even had a Shieldbearer. The single difference was that I had a shooter (Rex) who could make a difference, whereas Hinkbert had no shooting capability whatsoever. The Caedus/Zannah squad will face the same issue: tank squads without shooting capability face an uphill battle vs solid shooter squads...and the thing is, Hinkbert's squad had far better movement breakers (Foul, R2) than Caedus/Zannah do. So I agree that they will beat a melee squad almost every time, but I think you'll find real trouble vs other squads.

By contrast, the Mace/GOWK squad would eat the Caedus/Jaq squad alive, because once Jaq goes down (which will be quick vs a good player), it'll be Caedus vs the world...and he'll run out of hp and fp pretty quickly (remember that Mace can Absorb fprrs).

Tank squads are tricky: if the balance in squadbuilding isn't exactly right and/or if they're not played just-so, then they can fail to perform. So keep playtesting it and see how it does vs a variety of squads. I think it's cool that more tank-iness is part of the picture! :)

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:10 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
The Caedus/Zannah squad is definitely a tank squad, which by definition doesn't need a lot of activations. The thing is, though: you'll get eaten up by solid shooters because it lacks shooters of its own.

As an example, Hinkbert and I both played Mace/GOWK at Gencon. However, whereas I beat Darph Nader's Soviet Trooper Swarm twice (the 2nd win was very convincing), Hinkbert lost convincingly to the same Trooper Swarm in the Quarterfinals...he even had a Shieldbearer. The single difference was that I had a shooter (Rex) who could make a difference, whereas Hinkbert had no shooting capability whatsoever. The Caedus/Zannah squad will face the same issue: tank squads without shooting capability face an uphill battle vs solid shooter squads...and the thing is, Hinkbert's squad had far better movement breakers (Foul, R2) than Caedus/Zannah do. So I agree that they will beat a melee squad almost every time, but I think you'll find real trouble vs other squads.

By contrast, the Mace/GOWK squad would eat the Caedus/Jaq squad alive, because once Jaq goes down (which will be quick vs a good player), it'll be Caedus vs the world...and he'll run out of hp and fp pretty quickly (remember that Mace can Absorb fprrs).

Tank squads are tricky: if the balance in squadbuilding isn't exactly right and/or if they're not played just-so, then they can fail to perform. So keep playtesting it and see how it does vs a variety of squads. I think it's cool that more tank-iness is part of the picture! :)


Thanks for the feedback! I really want to see how this squad does against the top tier shooter squads also. What other shooter squads did you see at Gencon? Was Darth Nader's trooper squad a Naboo Trooper Death Shots?

I love how this squad is not so reliant on CE's (it helps to have the damage from Bandon but is not critical). I'm going to test it out on some top tier NR squads, to see how it hold up against Disruptive. I've found that having VCA 6 on Caedus also helps against the more prevalent auto-damage peices creeping their way into the meta. Haveing Vergere provide backup to heal the auto-damage is a bonus.

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Yes, the Naboo squad was a deathshot squad (Mothma, Yularen, etc).

Other powerful shooter squads (which I didn't face) were Imperial, all able to shoot with Force Immunity: Handmaidens, Weir's StormCommandos, and Bane & Blue. None of these squads will be easy to chase down with your melee figs...even with Caedus' movement breaker.

Another squad to PT against would be the new OR squad with Carth/Atton/Satele. Satele parries your attacks away while Carth/Atton take down first Caedus and then Zannah. They'll outactivate you and each of their attacks will be doing 40dmg, so it'll be painful once the shots start coming.

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:45 pm 
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obikenobi1 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
The Caedus/Zannah squad is definitely a tank squad, which by definition doesn't need a lot of activations. The thing is, though: you'll get eaten up by solid shooters because it lacks shooters of its own.

As an example, Hinkbert and I both played Mace/GOWK at Gencon. However, whereas I beat Darph Nader's Soviet Trooper Swarm twice (the 2nd win was very convincing), Hinkbert lost convincingly to the same Trooper Swarm in the Quarterfinals...he even had a Shieldbearer. The single difference was that I had a shooter (Rex) who could make a difference, whereas Hinkbert had no shooting capability whatsoever. The Caedus/Zannah squad will face the same issue: tank squads without shooting capability face an uphill battle vs solid shooter squads...and the thing is, Hinkbert's squad had far better movement breakers (Foul, R2) than Caedus/Zannah do. So I agree that they will beat a melee squad almost every time, but I think you'll find real trouble vs other squads.

By contrast, the Mace/GOWK squad would eat the Caedus/Jaq squad alive, because once Jaq goes down (which will be quick vs a good player), it'll be Caedus vs the world...and he'll run out of hp and fp pretty quickly (remember that Mace can Absorb fprrs).

Tank squads are tricky: if the balance in squadbuilding isn't exactly right and/or if they're not played just-so, then they can fail to perform. So keep playtesting it and see how it does vs a variety of squads. I think it's cool that more tank-iness is part of the picture! :)


Thanks for the feedback! I really want to see how this squad does against the top tier shooter squads also. What other shooter squads did you see at Gencon? Was Darth Nader's trooper squad a Naboo Trooper Death Shots?

I love how this squad is not so reliant on CE's (it helps to have the damage from Bandon but is not critical). I'm going to test it out on some top tier NR squads, to see how it hold up against Disruptive. I've found that having VCA 6 on Caedus also helps against the more prevalent auto-damage peices creeping their way into the meta. Haveing Vergere provide backup to heal the auto-damage is a bonus.


http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/111149/mons-double-ds

One important thing to note, I totally forgot to combine fire in every match during the championship. :x

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:21 pm 
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DarphNader wrote:
obikenobi1 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
The Caedus/Zannah squad is definitely a tank squad, which by definition doesn't need a lot of activations. The thing is, though: you'll get eaten up by solid shooters because it lacks shooters of its own.

As an example, Hinkbert and I both played Mace/GOWK at Gencon. However, whereas I beat Darph Nader's Soviet Trooper Swarm twice (the 2nd win was very convincing), Hinkbert lost convincingly to the same Trooper Swarm in the Quarterfinals...he even had a Shieldbearer. The single difference was that I had a shooter (Rex) who could make a difference, whereas Hinkbert had no shooting capability whatsoever. The Caedus/Zannah squad will face the same issue: tank squads without shooting capability face an uphill battle vs solid shooter squads...and the thing is, Hinkbert's squad had far better movement breakers (Foul, R2) than Caedus/Zannah do. So I agree that they will beat a melee squad almost every time, but I think you'll find real trouble vs other squads.

By contrast, the Mace/GOWK squad would eat the Caedus/Jaq squad alive, because once Jaq goes down (which will be quick vs a good player), it'll be Caedus vs the world...and he'll run out of hp and fp pretty quickly (remember that Mace can Absorb fprrs).

Tank squads are tricky: if the balance in squadbuilding isn't exactly right and/or if they're not played just-so, then they can fail to perform. So keep playtesting it and see how it does vs a variety of squads. I think it's cool that more tank-iness is part of the picture! :)


Thanks for the feedback! I really want to see how this squad does against the top tier shooter squads also. What other shooter squads did you see at Gencon? Was Darth Nader's trooper squad a Naboo Trooper Death Shots?

I love how this squad is not so reliant on CE's (it helps to have the damage from Bandon but is not critical). I'm going to test it out on some top tier NR squads, to see how it hold up against Disruptive. I've found that having VCA 6 on Caedus also helps against the more prevalent auto-damage peices creeping their way into the meta. Haveing Vergere provide backup to heal the auto-damage is a bonus.


http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/111149/mons-double-ds

One important thing to note, I totally forgot to combine fire in every match during the championship. :x



Can't combine on the death shots (can only combine on the shooters turn).

I'm not sure you would have been better of combining on your normal shots. Shear number of shots might be better.


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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:26 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I'm not sure you would have been better of combining on your normal shots. Shear number of shots might be better.

That's kind of what I was thinking. But still, needing a 17 to hit Mace in cover is a bit steep no matter what. The thing is, since they had Twin, you'd be giving up 2 shots in order to have a better chance of 1 shot landing. If you combine with 2 characters (for a +8 bonus) then you're giving up 4, and you still need to roll a 9+. If you combine with 3 characters (needing a 5 on the dice) you'd be giving up 6 attacks, which is probably far too many for any scenario other than a killing shot.

If, when a character with Twin combined with another character with Twin, he gave a +4 bonus to both attacks (rather than just to one) then I think it would've been well worth it combine every chance you got.

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:06 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
By contrast, the Mace/GOWK squad would eat the Caedus/Jaq squad alive, because once Jaq goes down (which will be quick vs a good player), it'll be Caedus vs the world...and he'll run out of hp and fp pretty quickly (remember that Mace can Absorb fprrs).


Caedus doesn't quite dominate Mace/GOWK the way one would think. We playtested Caedus against Trevor's championship squad. Remember, Caedus is force ascetic (can not spend force points to reroll or move faster). Mace based to Caedus is trouble for Caedus. Caedus might live due to makashi rolls but no rerolls on failed makashi saves, and Mace absorbs the Aing Ti, SBM, and illusion saves. Essentially shutting Caedus down, by stopping his real power. We didn't Playtest with Zannah on our squads but I don't think it would have made much difference. Caedus still won (and I had guns, and outactivated him) but it was not the blowout one might think. I had Dessel and a DRK probe droid and set up an awesome blaster barrage where I was able to atk every piece on his squad. Fun, even though I missed most of the shots, cause Dessel and his stupid +10 atk suck.

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:55 pm 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
By contrast, the Mace/GOWK squad would eat the Caedus/Jaq squad alive, because once Jaq goes down (which will be quick vs a good player), it'll be Caedus vs the world...and he'll run out of hp and fp pretty quickly (remember that Mace can Absorb fprrs).


Caedus doesn't quite dominate Mace/GOWK the way one would think. We playtested Caedus against Trevor's championship squad. Remember, Caedus is force ascetic (can not spend force points to reroll or move faster). Mace based to Caedus is trouble for Caedus. Caedus might live due to makashi rolls but no rerolls on failed makashi saves, and Mace absorbs the Aing Ti, SBM, and illusion saves. Essentially shutting Caedus down, by stopping his real power. We didn't Playtest with Zannah on our squads but I don't think it would have made much difference. Caedus still won (and I had guns, and outactivated him) but it was not the blowout one might think.


In my recent game that I playtested Caedus against Mace/Gowk, what came up was whether Mace wanted to spend 2 force points to cancel Sith Rage on Caedus. What happened was that Caedus was 6 squares away and used Aing Ting Flow walking and then moved adjacent and did his sith rage. Then if you won init, follow it up with another Sith Rage and see if Mace feels like spending his 2 force points to get rid of your 1 force point. In most cases, it didn't make sense, since Caedus could just do Sith Rage again. All told, it would be 150 dmg if all three attacks hit (and seeing that Mace has no defensive powers to stop melee attacks, he has to take all the hits) he will die in one round. If he decides to riposte, you can also riposte. I'd say Caedus has Mace pretty well locked down. The VCA 6 on Caedus in my squad also really limits Mace's effectiveness. Mace doesn't get crits all the time, so most attacks are only going to do a mere 10 dmg most of the time. All of a sudden, Caedus has a ton of HP to chew through, whereas Mace doesn't when each cunning sith raged attack does 50 dmg a pop.

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:58 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Yes, the Naboo squad was a deathshot squad (Mothma, Yularen, etc).


I was thinking of how the squad I have could counter the Naboo Death Shot swarm, and I got to thinking about using Sith Battle Manipulation to it maximum effectiveness. I think the one of the best ways would be to use it, group a bunch of the Naboo Troopers adjacent together, move Caedus away out of LOS and then follow up with a Force Coruption 3 from Zannah and kill all the troopers grouped together and just take the attacks and try to survive with SSM. This is not my ideal way to take on a swarm of Naboo Troopers, as that is a lot of deathshots, so I was thinking of maybe bringing in a stealthy shooter with Lobot and doing ranged attacks on the troopers while being safe from death shots with my stealth. The problem is, there are not a lot of great options at under 20 points. I need at least 1 uggnaught to blow open doors, so that gives me 17 points to spend on a stealthy shooter that can do 30 dmg at a reasonably good attack. The Whipid Tracker seems the best choice, but I am wasting 2 points to bring him in. I could also bring in a Klatooinian assassin but they would only do 20 dmg, and not get that kill shot that i need.

I don't mind sacrificing Zannah if it means taking out a lot of naboo troopers, but Force Corruption 3 is kinda hard to pull off. What would be the absolute best way to handle deathshots in a all melee squad using Sith Battle Manipulation?

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:09 pm 
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obikenobi1 wrote:
I don't mind sacrificing Zannah if it means taking out a lot of naboo troopers, but Force Corruption 3 is kinda hard to pull off. What would be the absolute best way to handle deathshots in a all melee squad using Sith Battle Manipulation?

Actually, I think this is the second-best way to handle them...kill them en masse and hope for decent luck with SSM saves. The very best way would be to place an unactivated Mouse in front of Zam but not adjacent to the troopers. The troopers would have +5s to hit the Mouse's 20/24 Def (depending on cover), and that would already absorb most of the shots which you would otherwise need to roll SSM on.

However, this is one of those "I can cremate your squad if I can get the right setup" scenarios, which an intelligent opponent will never give you. He'll count the range on Sith Battle Med and make sure that you can get no more than 2 or at most 3 of his troops with the Corruption.

Still, the best option is to have a shooter pick off troopers while standing safely behind an unactivated Zannah/Caedus or Mouse, so that the deathshots have minimal effect.

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 Post subject: Re: A Caedus of Immortality
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:45 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
obikenobi1 wrote:
I don't mind sacrificing Zannah if it means taking out a lot of naboo troopers, but Force Corruption 3 is kinda hard to pull off. What would be the absolute best way to handle deathshots in a all melee squad using Sith Battle Manipulation?

Actually, I think this is the second-best way to handle them...kill them en masse and hope for decent luck with SSM saves. The very best way would be to place an unactivated Mouse in front of Zam but not adjacent to the troopers. The troopers would have +5s to hit the Mouse's 20/24 Def (depending on cover), and that would already absorb most of the shots which you would otherwise need to roll SSM on.

However, this is one of those "I can cremate your squad if I can get the right setup" scenarios, which an intelligent opponent will never give you. He'll count the range on Sith Battle Med and make sure that you can get no more than 2 or at most 3 of his troops with the Corruption.

Still, the best option is to have a shooter pick off troopers while standing safely behind an unactivated Zannah/Caedus or Mouse, so that the deathshots have minimal effect.


I was just thinking tonight about how Caedus's Aing Ting Flow Walking doesn't activate him, so that is basically one kill (maybe 2 if your lucky or can use Sith Battle Manipulation to get 2 adjacent to you, albeit for a lot of FP) a round without the nasty damage on the death shot. I think the squad could stand a small chance of success as is, although it would be very hard to evade all those deathshots. As far as combining fire is concerned, I'm not to worried about it versus Caedus since he has really good Illusion force power to deter it. His defence becomes very hard to hit with a +9 attack on death shots when he's at 28 defence (which will be likely since Naboo's do 30 dmg a shot on activated people - 10 dmg with VCA 6 most of the time). They'd need 19's to hit Caeudus, while he gathers force points to kill them off with Aing Ting Flow walking and negate lucky shots with Illusion. I think a good strategy would be to maybe have vergere take a death shot when Caedus is high on defense so that he gets that 4 force points from her to give him 2 extra Illusions. And with Bandon nearby, she can do 30 dmg, which is enough to kill a Naboo Trooper. I'm hoping to test Caedus of Immortality versus Naboo Trooper Death shot swarm this weekend. It's good to know the squad has some options at least to deal with the threat.

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