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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:54 am 
Droid Army Commander
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I'd default to Huge, but if you want to experiment with other Base sizes for playtesting I don't think that would be a problem, just make note of it in your reports.

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:17 am 
Droid Army Commander
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Thanks. I just know the base size wasn't included.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:41 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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R5Don4 wrote:
So the stat blocks we are running with are:

Sarlacc. Cost 28
Hp 150
Def 16
Atk +8
Dam 10

Special Abilities
Melee, melee reach 3, quadruple atk, emplacement, indiscriminate, savage, stealth, Advantagous cover, clamp, resiliant,

Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Each time a character moves out of a square within 3 squares of this character on its own turn, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 11. An adjacent character that activates takes 30 damage, save 11 for 10 damage.


Trandoshan Hunt Master
Cost: 25
Hit Points: 70
Defense: 16
Attack: 8
Damage: 20

SA:
Bounty Hunter +2 (+2 Attack against Unique enemies)
Double Claw Attack (On his turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving; both attacks must be against adjacent enemies)
Rend +10 (If both of his attacks hit the same adjacent enemy, this character's second attack gets +10 Damage)
Regeneration 10 (If this character doesn't move on his turn, remove 10 damage from him at the end of that turn)
Ambush (This character can move and then make all its attacks against 1 enemy who has not activated this round)
Clan (Allied Trandoshans gain Bounty Hunter +2)

CE:
Bounty Hunter followers within 6 gain Ambush




Any tweaks that need to be addressed or we are good for these as first drafts?


Anybody with great squad ideas, please post them so that we can playtest these in their close-to-best squads.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:19 pm 
Intelligence Operative
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Definitely think that the Tradoshan's CE should be changed to non-uniques or at least fringe. Imagine Durge JH with 6 attacks and ambush


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:38 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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GeneralGrievous wrote:
Definitely think that the Tradoshan's CE should be changed to non-uniques or at least fringe. Imagine Durge JH with 6 attacks and ambush


Yeah - we'll have to see how that turns out. Definitely worth a playtest. Sounds like he might be as competitive as Cad Bane with Ambush. Comparison...

He is 51 points, though.

Durge, JH
Hit Points: 110
Defense: 19
Attack: 9
Damage: 20

Unique
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)
Jedi Hunter (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against enemies with Force ratings)
Lightsaber Resistance (+2 Defense when attacked by an adjacent enemy with a Force rating)
Regeneration 20 (If this character doesn't move on his turn, remove 20 damage from him at the end of that turn)
Resilient (Immune to critical hits)

From CEs: Ambush, Twin Attack
Cost for CEs: 20+25+6 (2 Mouse Droids) = 51



Cad Bane
Hit Points: 80
Defense: 19
Attack: 10
Damage: 20

Unique
Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)
Double Attack (On his turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving)
Bounty Hunter +6 (+6 Attack against Unique enemies)
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but he must make them all before resuming movement.)
Stealth (If this character has cover, he does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)
Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, he makes 1 extra attack against the same target)

From CEs: Opportunist
Cost for CEs: 32


Seems pretty comparable. They both have max dmg of 120 (Durge 180 versus force users). Durge has an advantage on offensive output versus force users, but it's otherwise pretty much even. Durge has more HP, Resilient and Regeneration. Cad has Stealth, Evade, Flight. Survivability edge probably goes to Cad Bane, but it's pretty close. The CE costs are pretty comparable considering that the CEs benefit other people and the Trandoshan is a decent attacker himself. Cad Bane has GMA, which is better than Ambush. Neither have accurate shot. Boba Merc, with Accurate, Intuition, and 120 dmg max output (with Whorm) is perhaps better than either of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:14 pm 
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Don't imagine. Make squads and test it in multiple games. If there is a real problem show it.

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:57 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Two playtests tonight with the new Trandoshan. He didn't have any effect in either one.

Quick Summary:

Durge + Whorm + Poggle beats Bastila. Durge never used the Trandoshan CE to Ambush. Close game. OR would have won if either Satele made a particular Absorb Energy save or Jaq didn't miss one particular attack.

Sub-optimal Mace/GOWK squad beats Seps with Boba Merc. Momaw takes out the Mice so Boba is without Ambush/Twin for part a round or so. Towed Mace bases Boba and kills him before he can get off a big attack.


So no problems from our perspective. I do think this piece could use Rapport for Trandoshan non-uniques, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:01 am 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Two playtests tonight with the new Trandoshan. He didn't have any effect in either one.

Quick Summary:

Durge + Whorm + Poggle beats Bastila. Durge never used the Trandoshan CE to Ambush. Close game. OR would have won if either Satele made a particular Absorb Energy save or Jaq didn't miss one particular attack.

Sub-optimal Mace/GOWK squad beats Seps with Boba Merc. Momaw takes out the Mice so Boba is without Ambush/Twin for part a round or so. Towed Mace bases Boba and kills him before he can get off a big attack.


So no problems from our perspective. I do think this piece could use Rapport for Trandoshan non-uniques, though.


I'm curious as to full squads on both sides. As Durge, JH and Boba, Merc may have been the main recipients, but were there no other beneficiaries to the Trando's CE (and just what were they up against)?

Not a full summary - just the squads.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:34 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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First skirmish was this versus a standard OR build: Carth, Jaq, OR Senator, Bastila, Satele, Klatooinian Captain, Filler.

--Durge Trandoshan Playtest--
51 Durge, Jedi Hunter
27 Lobot
25 THM
20 General Whorm Loathsom
34 IG-86 Assassin Droid x2
9 Battle Droid Officer
9 Poggle the Lesser
8 R7 Astromech Droid
3 Mouse Droid
14 Geonosian Drone x7

(200pts. 17 activations)

Reinforcements: MTB, Mouse x3, Ugnaught.


Second skirmish was Republic:

Mace LotLS
GOWK
Captain Rex
Foul Moudama
Momaw Nadon
R2 AM

Versus Separatist build... Boba Merc, Whorm, THM, Jodo Kast, Kel Dor BH, Spotter Droid, Lobot & filler. THM matches well with Jodo (Cunning & Double), but Jodo is still overcosted even with that boost.


With Durge, it was hard to Ambush without Accurate Shot. In fact, when he did attack, it was after out-activating the OR, the moving in for one shot and then standing still for 3 more after winning init (or 6 more with Whorm). Standing still was to get Regen, so Ambush never mattered anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:38 am 
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It's been a while since I was last on and it feels like I havn't even been a part of this project. THM playtests have been playing out exactly as I have foreseen, but I will say that I don't think the boba merc squad was optimized. Understandable when trying some of the other boostable figs like Jodo. This is just judging off the few playtests that have been done, maybe more will say otherwise. I'm curious as to what playtests will show with the Sarlacc. Hopefully I can find some time soon so I can get some playtests in.
I would also suggest a new Playtest results thread with full write ups like the Playtest Commitee so we can analyze deeper and get a full understanding of the figs in question.

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:42 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
THM matches well with Jodo (Cunning & Double), but Jodo is still overcosted even with that boost.


That's unfortunate, he did seem like a prime candidate for Ambush.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:42 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Lord_Ball wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
THM matches well with Jodo (Cunning & Double), but Jodo is still overcosted even with that boost.


That's unfortunate, he did seem like a prime candidate for Ambush.


Compare him to Dash... you add a 25 point commander for Ambush and a 20 point commander for Twin. That gives you the equivalent of Dash, but weaker mobility (Ambush instead of GMA), add Flight and Virulent Poison Dart, and slightly better stats (+10HP, +3Def, up to +4Atk).

All things considered, I'd say that's slightly better than Dash... give up a little mobility for extra tricks and better stats. But for +10 cost and 45 points in commanders? Eh. Even after we recognize that Dash is too undercosted to be a good point of comparison, I think he still doesn't quite cut it.

Also, in that squad he was competing with Boba Fett for the first move. Tough to get Cunning off twice if the enemy in front activates early.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Any more playtests from anyone to look at. I got to Playtest the Sarlacc today and learned a bit from it. I will post a report when I have more time.
I know it's the holidays and people are busy but please if you have a moment during the rush, I highly encourage more Playtests.

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:29 pm 
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Ok, I should first say that I used the huge base crab droid. I recommend this as the RM. If you look at the bottom of the crab it somewhat resembles the oriface of the Sarlacc. It could be made into a custom with some simple cutting and painting if wanted too. This is my vote for base size and RM.
I playtested with the new Caedus (as he seems the most likely to break the Sarlacc). I can not reveal my whole squad as I was asked by one of the V-5 designers to Playtest another piece from V-5. I can say I played The new Caedus with the Sarlacc exar dfs and a few GA special guards for gun support. I faced a thrawn swap of super stealth, supped up kel dor bounty hunters. He failed to see how SBM would work and I was able to line up 2 of his bombs while my Sarlacc took 40 from the explosion. He learned and avoided the Sarlacc and the Sarlacc was little more than a gambit getter. I still won the match through the power of Caedus and his SBM. I will say that after the play test and seeing the Sarlacc in some action that I think quad atk is to much. I suggest dropping it to double. Triple is the highest it should go. As I understand the indiscriminate ability on him, it's a waste of space on the Sarlacc and not needed.
Here's my reasoning behind that. If he is going to get boosted due to savage then he is more than likely going to get granted indiscriminate through the rancor keeper or the sith wrangler. If not boosted, if he gets close he has to make the save for the Sarlacc ability, and when adjacent he is taking auto damage when activated so the diplomat is really not an issue. And as pointed out, indiscriminate is just a waste of space on the card. After talking with the guy I playtested with and a current design team member about the Sarlacc, if we implement the changes I suggested we can drop his cost to the 23-24 range. I think the cheaper the better. I was asked to try and drop him to 20 so he can be brought in through lobot. I understand he can't gain gambit that way but I would prefer to not have him be reinforcement fodder. He can be prime reserve 30 fodder (depending on the situation). He could be really fun in a reserve squad, in which case the cheaper is better.
My wife and kids are calling so I must go. When I get more time I will post and underline the changes that I suggested.

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:52 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
R5Don4 wrote:
Sarlacc. Cost 23-24
Hp 150
Def 16
Atk +8
Dam 10

Special Abilities
Melee, melee reach 3, double atk, emplacement, savage, stealth, Advantagous cover, clamp, resiliant,

Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Each time a character moves out of a square within 3 squares of this character, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 11. An adjacent character that activates takes 30 damage, save 11 for 10 damage.


Adjusted cost. Changed quadruple to double. (Could go triple if that's what most people want. Dropped indiscriminate. And changed the the Sarlacc ability so its worded like mines on the chameleon droid. Which was my intent from the begining. What does everyone else say.

With double and boosted by Celeste he has a max potential of 60. I view him as more about getting you close and auto damage from there.

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:46 pm 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
Sarlacc. Cost 23-24
Hp 150
Def 16
Atk +8
Dam 10

Special Abilities
Melee, melee reach 3, double atk, emplacement, savage, stealth, Advantagous cover, clamp, resiliant,

Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Each time a character moves out of a square within 3 squares of this character, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 11. When an adjacent character activates, it takes 30 damage; on a save 11, reduce the damage to 10 .


Fixed Sarlaac.

Just a note on the Trandoshan. Don't focus so much on the Seps, or at least focus on the non-unique Trandoshans. I have a tough time seeing this fig replacing a V5 piece. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:56 pm 
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Thanx Scott on fixing the wording of Sarlacc.

If the Trandoshan has a tough time replacing a V-5 piece, is there a different route we should be going? Cheaper? Is there a direction that we could make the 2 work well together? I'd hate to have us waste a spot if it won't be used at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:16 am 
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Its a faction specific piece for the Seperatists. So you may want to focus on the other factions. Honestly, the only reason I see using the Trandoshan in Seps is in conjuction with non-unique Trandoshans and the Crimson Nova Guild Leader (Double Claw + Twin + Jedi Hunter would be interesting). Outside of that possible complication, I don't see it being an issue. The two pieces do not work together at all. So you don't have to worry about the combination.

I just don't want you to waste energies when it is quite possible that the other option is going to be used more. Work with the other factions for the most part.

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:14 am 
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Understood.

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:39 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
Its a faction specific piece for the Seperatists. So you may want to focus on the other factions. Honestly, the only reason I see using the Trandoshan in Seps is in conjuction with non-unique Trandoshans and the Crimson Nova Guild Leader (Double Claw + Twin + Jedi Hunter would be interesting). Outside of that possible complication, I don't see it being an issue. The two pieces do not work together at all. So you don't have to worry about the combination.

I just don't want you to waste energies when it is quite possible that the other option is going to be used more. Work with the other factions for the most part.

That is why I have been saying we should change the ce. No one listens to me. The ce really is very limited and weak. I was saying it was strong to try and get you guys away from it.

In the rpg from wotc the species was all about cleave, movement, extra hp, and damage when something died.

I think we should try and play on that.


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