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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:58 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle

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Sithborg wrote:
UrbanShmi wrote:
The proposed wording is intended to allow the Sarlacc to make AoOs (attacks not on its own turn) against characters up to three squares away. Is there a problem with the wording or the ability?


Yes. It is only for purposes of AoOs. Not Melee Attack or Melee Reach, so the attack still can't be made. And not for a wide, wide range of other abilties. Think back to the original Melee Reach and some of the screwed up interactions. And open it up much wider.


UrbanShmi,

I'd vote to just leave it off. We could probably find wording that works, but I think it is probably more trouble than it's worth. Especially, if we are going to have a save on movement that would place people adjacent.

Actually, the extended range AoO was supposed to replace the 'place adjacent on movement' ability. Since I included the 'place adjacent on movement' ability, I shouldn't have had the extended range AoO on that latest version anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:25 am 
Sith Apprentice
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I wouldn't worry about have the "on their own turn" part on the card however having it added to the glossary entry wouldn't be a bad idea.

Here's an example of how I chose to "handle" this very issue.

Entangling Attack 1 (When hit by this characters attack, Save 11. On a failure Huge or smaller targets move 1 square closer to this character; this movement does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity, and the target cannot move or make extra attacks for the rest of the round.)

Glossary:
Entangling Attack X: If the target of this characters attack is Huge or smaller and the attack of this character hits, the controller of the target of that attack rolls a save of 11. If the save fails the target enemy is moved X spaces closer to this character: it's final position must be closer to the acting character than it's starting position. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A character moved in this way cannot enter a space occupied by another character, whether enemy or ally, and is affected by terrain (if only moving the character 1 space ignore terrain that increases the cost of movement). If the target would be moved into a wall or another character, it slides along the impassable squares as far as possible. The acting character's controller decides which way the character is moved. For the remainder of the round a character hit by this attack may not move normally (they may still be moved by Special Abilities or Force Powers of other characters) or use abilities that grant extra attacks.


I left off CEs from my approach it could certainly be added though.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:17 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Sarlacc 27
HP 200
Def 14
Atk 15
Dmg 0

Melee Attack, Melee Reach 3, Emplacement, Savage, Triple Attack, Clamp
Stealth, Advantageous Cover, Resilient

Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Each time a character moves out of a square within 3 squares of this character on its own turn, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 6. An adjacent character that activates takes 30 damage, save 11 for 10 damage.


Above is what we have based on the latest two changes:
* Removed "Enemies within 3 squares are considered adjacent for the purpose of Attacks of Opportunity. " The save on movement accomplishes a similar result without the rules issues on adjacency.
* Added "on its own turn" to the movement save, as discussed earlier. This allows Levitate and other out-of-turn movement without requiring a save. Thematically, it allows allies to pull each other away from the Sarlacc.

I have a couple minor issues that I think are up for debate on this version:
* 0dmg vs 10dmg. I don't think the Sarlacc should be a big damage dealer, but I don't think 10 would be out of line. Also, 10dmg might get some people on the "big damage" side of the debate to buy in.
* Should the movement save be "moves into a square within 3 squares" or "moves out of a square within 3 squares"? Difference between the two...

"moves into": Only 2 saves to get away from the Sarlacc when adjacent. That's 9/16 (56%) chance of making it with no extra rolls, but then 9/32 (28%) chance if the AoO hits (Clamp save).

"moves out of:" 3 saves to get away from the Sarlacc when adjacent. That's 27/64 (42%) chance of making it with no extra rolls, but make it 27/128 (21%) after a Clamp save. However, it means you can move into a square 3 squares from the Sarlacc without having to roll a save. If you know you can move in and attack that turn without worrying about a save, you might be more willing to move into the Sarlacc's range.

I'm not sure which of the two is more intuitive.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:19 pm 
Intelligence Operative
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I like most of what you posted flyingarrow but I am not a fan of the stealth/advantageous cover bit. and would prefer it in the sarlacc ability to not be targeted further then 3 squares away so as to actually draw people in to fight this beast.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:54 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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GeneralGrievous wrote:
I like most of what you posted flyingarrow but I am not a fan of the stealth/advantageous cover bit. and would prefer it in the sarlacc ability to not be targeted further then 3 squares away so as to actually draw people in to fight this beast.


I think that debate will need to be settled through playtesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:18 pm 
Hall of Fame
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GeneralGrievous wrote:
I like most of what you posted flyingarrow but I am not a fan of the stealth/advantageous cover bit. and would prefer it in the sarlacc ability to not be targeted further then 3 squares away so as to actually draw people in to fight this beast.


Stealth and Advantagous is fine, as the real strength of the Sarlacc is the rest of squad designed to bring opponents in. Stealth will make most have to get to within 6, the rest of your squad should handle it from there. Advantagous cover helps against the accurate shot.
I think this flows well with the movies as well. The rebels got to within 6 by going to jabbas palace and jabba got them the rest of the way there. IMO, it makes more sense this way. It just depends on how you look at it.

With that said, I think a 16 def and no more than a 12 atk (possibly even less) with a base of 10 damage. Which I also agree with it. That would take you to a 24 def in cover (which should be suitable).

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:12 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
UrbanShmi wrote:
The proposed wording is intended to allow the Sarlacc to make AoOs (attacks not on its own turn) against characters up to three squares away. Is there a problem with the wording or the ability?


Yes. It is only for purposes of AoOs. Not Melee Attack or Melee Reach, so the attack still can't be made. And not for a wide, wide range of other abilties. Think back to the original Melee Reach and some of the screwed up interactions. And open it up much wider.


UrbanShmi,

I'd vote to just leave it off. We could probably find wording that works, but I think it is probably more trouble than it's worth. Especially, if we are going to have a save on movement that would place people adjacent.

Actually, the extended range AoO was supposed to replace the 'place adjacent on movement' ability. Since I included the 'place adjacent on movement' ability, I shouldn't have had the extended range AoO on that latest version anyway.

I really think we should rethink her idea. Just saying having her on board odds are means jason might have some imput in the background. Just saying I think your saying no before we even got anywhere.

Ill post
think we need to add what deri said a little more and rethink about what shmi said.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:42 am 
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I actually think we have a lot of what Deri suggested.
Cost, stealth, savage, lower damage, etc...
Deri seemed to say what I was thinking but couldn't get the words right and I like this current version, with a few tweaks, but what version now doesn't need a few tweaks?

IMO, Deri's input was well received and accounted for.

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"But one thing I have learned in this process is that flavor can't override the good of the game."
-urbanshmi2-


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:18 am 
Black Sun Thug
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Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 12:22 pm
Posts: 76
jonnyb815 wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
UrbanShmi wrote:
The proposed wording is intended to allow the Sarlacc to make AoOs (attacks not on its own turn) against characters up to three squares away. Is there a problem with the wording or the ability?


Yes. It is only for purposes of AoOs. Not Melee Attack or Melee Reach, so the attack still can't be made. And not for a wide, wide range of other abilties. Think back to the original Melee Reach and some of the screwed up interactions. And open it up much wider.


UrbanShmi,

I'd vote to just leave it off. We could probably find wording that works, but I think it is probably more trouble than it's worth. Especially, if we are going to have a save on movement that would place people adjacent.

Actually, the extended range AoO was supposed to replace the 'place adjacent on movement' ability. Since I included the 'place adjacent on movement' ability, I shouldn't have had the extended range AoO on that latest version anyway.

I really think we should rethink her idea. Just saying having her on board odds are means jason might have some imput in the background. Just saying I think your saying no before we even got anywhere.

Ill post
think we need to add what deri said a little more and rethink about what shmi said.


If there's a way for my idea to work, I hope it can be included; however, my "on-boardness" with the project doesn't necessarily hinge on whether or not the thing can make AoOs from three squares away. That just feels very true to the creature to me, but there are other things, like the Wild Sweep idea, that could serve just as well, and I think the project is generally moving in a good general direction. I'm even coming around on the idea of moving adjacent, with or without a save, as my initial objections were much less about that mechanic than about how it triggered and what it was supposed to represent.

Sorry I disappeared for a day or so. Guess everybody gets attached to their own ideas from time to time. The important thing is, as a community, to create a piece that's fun and interesting enough for people to at least think about playing it. That means it needs to have good "flavor," but also not make things obscenely complicated.


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