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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:09 pm 
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I don't intend to get too involved in this process but i'll offer my thoughts on how i would approach this build. None of my thoughts are anything more than suggestions, i certainly won't care if they are applied or not.

it should probably have savage. Its not an intelligent being, its a stupid animal/plant, more so than a wampa or rancor. Shaak Ti was able to control one, so it should probably be applicable to empathy.

Because its emplaced the only thing savage prevents is applicability to commander effects which it probably not be subject to because its a stupid animal/plant. Exar Kuhn and Celeste affect it by riling it up and making it a more effective killer so their CE's fit giving it evade and the like seems weird. Although with empathy its going to be able to do that which is odd but probably not something to really get worried about.

It should get Stealth, at the least. i think is a good fit because you probably wouldn't be able to see it until you got up close. Actually, because it resides in a pit its probably a bit more than stealth, more like you can't target it unless you are within 6 because any further away and you will have to shoot through the floor to get at it.

The choice of character is an odd one to be honest because it doesn't or shouldn't move, its savage (probably has less intelligence than a wampa) its a character and a pit.

As far as game mechanics you would be buying a road block. A 9 or more square obstruction that makes it really hard for your opponents to utilize that space without killing it. However, your opponent will probably just avoid it so you would need it to be cheap enough to put in your squad whilst not handicapping your squad too much. Around an 8th to a 4th of your total squad cost.

If you can attack it, then it should probably be able to attack you because of its tentacles. The testicles were able to grab the skiff so it might have abilities to catch fliers also.

Also, what happens if you do kill it, is there a pit left? Or do you envision the ground closing over as it dies leaving a utilizable floor.

Health should be high (150? More? Much more? dependent on cost), possible regen, possible drain life energy cos it east what it kills.
attack should be pretty low (wild swings of tentacles) but multiples because of many tentacles
a successful attack probably results in the figure being snared (no save) together a risk of being pulled into the pit (save 6?). After the intitial snare there could be a corruption like save to see if you are still snared, and if so then you risk being pulled into the pit again, if not then you run free.
Defense should probably be low

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:31 pm 
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LMAO

Quote:
The testicles were able to grab the skiff so it might have abilities to catch fliers also.


Didnt realize that is what they were... damn you auto correct

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:49 pm 
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Now that I am done laughing thinking about what was actually meant here is a slightly diffrent version, thinking about characters getting pulled in.

Sarlacc
Cost:
HP: 170
Def: 18
Att: 8
Dam: 10

SA:
Melee Attack; Twin; Melee Reach 3
Stealth, Emplacement, Indiscriminate

Sarlacc (Not subject to commander effects. You may not have more than one character with Sarlacc in your squad. Characters with in 3 squares are considered adjacent)

Diminished Line of Sight: If this character has cover, it cannot be targeted by enemies father than 3 squares. Characters with flight ignore this effect.

Tentacles:. An enemy who start it's turn within 3 of this character's is immediately placed one square closer to this character and cannot move for rest of the turn, save 6. If an enemy character becomes based with this character, it is defeated save 11.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:36 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Auto-death with a save was pretty much ruled out by Sithborg as unbalance-able.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:39 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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If anybody else wants to vote on these, please do - so we can get a feel of where the majority is.

Damage output level: High Damage VS Low Damage w/Movement Hindrance
Move adjacent when attacked VS Move adjacent when moving
Savage VS Specific restriction that it's not subject to CEs
Provides Cover VS Does Not
Stealth/Advantageous Cover VS Cannot be attacked outside 3 squares


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:30 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Here's a proposal using these options:

Damage output level: High Damage VS Low Damage w/Movement Hindrance
Move adjacent when attacked VS Move adjacent when moving
Savage VS Specific restriction that it's not subject to CEs
Provides Cover VS Does Not
Stealth/Advantageous Cover VS Cannot be attacked outside 3 squares

Sarlacc 27
HP 200
Def 14
Atk 15
Dmg 0

Melee Attack, Melee Reach 3, Emplacement, Savage, Triple Attack, Clamp
Stealth, Advantageous Cover, Resilient

Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Enemies within 3 squares are considered adjacent for the purpose of Attacks of Opportunity. Each time a character moves out of a square within 3 squares of this character, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 6. An adjacent character that activates takes 30 damage, save 11 for 10 damage.


The Sarlacc ability could be split into multiple other abilities if we think any might be re-used. A few changes since my previous iteration:
* Adopted extended attacks of opportunity and Resilient
* Save is for reduced damage instead of no damage

Getting away from this character is difficult. If the attack hits, then there's a Clamp save. Then a save for 2 squares of movement to escape. If the AoO hits, then a character (without rerolls) has only a 9/32 (28%) chance of escaping . If the AoO doesn't hit (high defense character), then a character with a reroll has about a 70% chance of escaping. That seems about right to me.



I prefer the "move adjacent when moving" approach, but there was a strong opinion against it. Movement from attacks didn't seem to get similar opposition, so I wanted to go that route. However, if we go with "move adjacent when attacking" approach, it still needs to be dangerous to allies. So I think we would need to go back to the Wild Sweep and single attack approach. That way, if you want to attack more than one enemy, you also have to attack allies, too. To make the switch, remove Triple Attack and the 'Salacc' SA above and add these 3:

Wild Sweep: Attack each adjacent character (including allies) once.
Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Enemies within 3 squares are considered adjacent for the purpose of Attacks of Opportunity. When a character is hit by this character's attack, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 6. An adjacent character that activates takes 30 damage and may not move, save 11.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:19 am 
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I didn't say Autodefeat wasn't balancable. You just have to take the few examples that are available in the actual game, not a scenario piece.

FlyingArrow wrote:
Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Enemies within 3 squares are considered adjacent for the purpose of Attacks of Opportunity. When a character is hit by this character's attack, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 6. An adjacent character that activates takes 30 damage and may not move, save 11.


Please reread Melee Reach.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:58 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
I didn't say Autodefeat wasn't balancable. You just have to take the few examples that are available in the actual game, not a scenario piece.

FlyingArrow wrote:
Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Enemies within 3 squares are considered adjacent for the purpose of Attacks of Opportunity. When a character is hit by this character's attack, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 6. An adjacent character that activates takes 30 damage and may not move, save 11.


Please reread Melee Reach.


Glossary definition of Melee Reach 3: When making an attack on its own turn, this character treats all characters within 3 squares as adjacent for all purposes. This character can be affected by enemy special abilities or Force powers that specify adjacent characters and interrupt this attack, such as Self-Destruct.

The proposed wording is intended to allow the Sarlacc to make AoOs (attacks not on its own turn) against characters up to three squares away. Is there a problem with the wording or the ability?


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:50 am 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Here's a proposal using these options:

Damage output level: High Damage VS Low Damage w/Movement Hindrance
Move adjacent when attacked VS Move adjacent when moving
Savage VS Specific restriction that it's not subject to CEs
Provides Cover VS Does Not
Stealth/Advantageous Cover VS Cannot be attacked outside 3 squares

Sarlacc 27
HP 200
Def 14
Atk 15
Dmg 0

Melee Attack, Melee Reach 3, Emplacement, Savage, Triple Attack, Clamp
Stealth, Advantageous Cover, Resilient

Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Enemies within 3 squares are considered adjacent for the purpose of Attacks of Opportunity. Each time a character moves out of a square within 3 squares of this character, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 6. An adjacent character that activates takes 30 damage, save 11 for 10 damage.


The Sarlacc ability could be split into multiple other abilities if we think any might be re-used. A few changes since my previous iteration:
* Adopted extended attacks of opportunity and Resilient
* Save is for reduced damage instead of no damage

Getting away from this character is difficult. If the attack hits, then there's a Clamp save. Then a save for 2 squares of movement to escape. If the AoO hits, then a character (without rerolls) has only a 9/32 (28%) chance of escaping . If the AoO doesn't hit (high defense character), then a character with a reroll has about a 70% chance of escaping. That seems about right to me.



I prefer the "move adjacent when moving" approach, but there was a strong opinion against it. Movement from attacks didn't seem to get similar opposition, so I wanted to go that route. However, if we go with "move adjacent when attacking" approach, it still needs to be dangerous to allies. So I think we would need to go back to the Wild Sweep and single attack approach. That way, if you want to attack more than one enemy, you also have to attack allies, too. To make the switch, remove Triple Attack and the 'Salacc' SA above and add these 3:

Wild Sweep: Attack each adjacent character (including allies) once.
Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Enemies within 3 squares are considered adjacent for the purpose of Attacks of Opportunity. When a character is hit by this character's attack, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 6. An adjacent character that activates takes 30 damage and may not move, save 11.


I will +1 that stat line. A couple of abilitys like maybe resilient (I like it on there) might have to go and I think the atk value would have to be lowered to keep the cost down.
I prefer your initial line over the alternate abilities.
Well done sir. I can 100% get behind this, it feels to me like a good mixture of what I was trying to get at and what you originally were trying for.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:21 am 
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Yeah I'm ok with that for a first draft.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:26 am 
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fingersandteeth wrote:
it should probably have savage. Its not an intelligent being, its a stupid animal/plant, more so than a wampa or rancor. Shaak Ti was able to control one, so it should probably be applicable to empathy.


I was under the impression she used the force to "control" it rather than "a leash".

Based on my last submission I guess mine would fall under...
FlyingArrow wrote:
Damage output level: High Damage VS Low Damage w/Movement Hindrance
Move adjacent when attacked VS Move adjacent when moving
Savage VS Specific restriction that it's not subject to CEs
Provides Cover VS Does Not
Stealth/Advantageous Cover VS Cannot be attacked outside 3 squares


a combination of my 2 previous submissions
Sarlacc
Cost: 30
HP: 150
Def: 18
Att: 11
Dam: 10

SA:
Melee Attack; Double Attack; Melee Reach 4
Emplacement. Stealth
Advantageous Cover (+8 Defense from cover instead of +4)
Resilient (Immune to critical hits)
Indiscriminate (This character ignores abilities and commander effects that prevent enemy characters from being targeted or attacked)
Callous (This character may target allies.)
Sarlacc (Not subject to commander effects. This character does not provide cover and always has cover against attackers farther than 3 squares away. Whenever this character defeats a living enemy remove 10 Damage. You may not have more than one character with Sarlacc in your squad.)
Entangling Attack 1 (When hit by this characters attack, Save 11. On a failure Huge or smaller targets move 1 square closer to this character; this movement does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity, and the target cannot move or make extra attacks for the rest of the round.)
Engulf (Living enemies that fail a save against this character with a roll of a 1, 2, or 3 are immediately defeated.)

A little much going on - but with the removed definitions (Emplacement/Stealth) and some even more simplified (Callous) it is estimated to take up the same number of lines as before.

The only thing missing is the extended AoO range.


*Editted to address an oversight.


Last edited by Lord_Ball on Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:42 am 
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There is no ability in the game right now to control savage with the force. To avoid making new abilities, I 100% agree with Deri and others that savage is the way to go and empathy is fine to signify shak Ti controlling it. Same as Deri said, it's nothing to serious to worry about or get more complicated with.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:58 am 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
There is no ability in the game right now to control savage with the force. To avoid making new abilities, I 100% agree with Deri and others that savage is the way to go and empathy is fine to signify shak Ti controlling it.


In respects to TFU - Force Dominate (as well as regular Dominate, and Pawn of the Dark Side for other characters) accomplishes what Shaak Ti did with the Ancient Abyss- no new ability needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:30 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Enemies within 3 squares are considered adjacent for the purpose of Attacks of Opportunity. Each time a character moves out of a square within 3 squares of this character on its own turn, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 6. An adjacent character that activates takes 30 damage, save 11 for 10 damage.


I think allies should be able to help each other. We have Levitate, but adding the "on its own turn" language means that out of turn movement bonuses can help get someone out of the Sarlacc. It also means you don't have to roll the save on involuntary movement. Though involuntary movement will probably leave you close to the Sarlacc so that you probably do have roll a save on your own turn. Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:13 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Sarlacc: Does not provide cover. Enemies within 3 squares are considered adjacent for the purpose of Attacks of Opportunity. Each time a character moves out of a square within 3 squares of this character on its own turn, you place it adjacent to this character and it ends its move, save 6. An adjacent character that activates takes 30 damage, save 11 for 10 damage.


I think allies should be able to help each other. We have Levitate, but adding the "on its own turn" language means that out of turn movement bonuses can help get someone out of the Sarlacc. It also means you don't have to roll the save on involuntary movement. Though involuntary movement will probably leave you close to the Sarlacc so that you probably do have roll a save on your own turn. Thoughts?


I agree, we should be able to levitate, swap, and sith battle manipulate allies away from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:28 pm 
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UrbanShmi wrote:
The proposed wording is intended to allow the Sarlacc to make AoOs (attacks not on its own turn) against characters up to three squares away. Is there a problem with the wording or the ability?


Yes. It is only for purposes of AoOs. Not Melee Attack or Melee Reach, so the attack still can't be made. And not for a wide, wide range of other abilties. Think back to the original Melee Reach and some of the screwed up interactions. And open it up much wider.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:40 pm 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
I agree, we should be able to levitate, swap, and sith battle manipulate allies away from it.


Levitate and Swap already work anyway since they use placement instead of movement.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:07 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
sthlrd2 wrote:
I agree, we should be able to levitate, swap, and sith battle manipulate allies away from it.


Levitate and Swap already work anyway since they use placement instead of movement.


Levitate is movement.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:29 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Sithborg wrote:
Levitate is movement.


Whoops. Sorry about that.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:28 pm 
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Either way, if the movement isn't happening on there turn then they can still be levitated and SBM'd out of harms way. Swap would work unless we did something silly like add distraction. (no I am not suggesting that).
Just stating that I like the idea of adding "on their own turn". So that we can use movement breakers like these to get people to safety.

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