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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:32 pm 
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komix wrote:
I don't really understand why nearly all of the presented versions have damage presented as 0. I know that in film he wasn't in best shape, but that doesn't mean that he (it) is so weak. Go play TFU 1.

What's the point of using Sarlacc if he (mostly) would only strike 1 character via special ability??
IMO Sarlacc should have high HP, mid-def mid att and dam at least at 20. Otherwise, I don't see myself using it at all. He won't ever be a game changer but let's create a DECENT version.
Savage SA is a must, come on :P Via this SA he gets boosted by Celeste and Malakii.


Well if your not happy with any of the stats, then post your own. Don't just tell us we have bad stats and are not making good. You should at least give some suggestions.

Go ahead put savage on him and boost him with Celeste, he won't be optimized. In order for the Sarlac to be optimized is to have a way to force your opponent to him.

I still want someone to show me via a Playtest report that he can be broke, if he is a follower. Break him and optimize a build with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:37 pm 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
I still want someone to show me via a Playtest report that he can be broke, if he is a follower. Break him and optimize a build with him.

Mechanics-wise it'd be hard to break (outside of a new already near-broken ability), but flavor-wise (representation) being subject to CEs is very broken.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:16 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Lord_Ball wrote:
Mechanics-wise it'd be hard to break (outside of a new already near-broken ability), but flavor-wise (representation) being subject to CEs is very broken.


Yes - very broken. Thematically, he should not be subject to CEs.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:08 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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Ok, here's another take, which includes a little from Column A and a little from Column B:

Sarlacc 35

140
17
10
10

Special Abilities:
Melee Attack, Double Attack
Sarlacc (Not subject to Commander Effects. Does not block Line of Sight and does not provide cover. You may only include one character with Sarlacc in you squad.)
Stealth
Advantageous Cover
Melee Reach 3
Tentacles (Enemy characters within three squares are considered adjacent for purposes of attacks of opportunity. An enemy hit by this character's attack of opportunity is immediately placed one square away from this character, save 6. This character can make more than one attack of opportunity per turn.)
Clamp (An enemy hit by this character's attack takes +10 Damage and cannot move this round; save 11 negates)
Rend +10

Either Clamp or Rend might need to go to keep the cost down, although I like the idea of both for this character.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:55 pm 
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Is it really that hard to believe that the Sarlacc can't be controlled. One could argue that jabba owned the Sarlacc. And I try and deal in game-play terms, as there are a lot of things that don't make sense but yet we must get used to them in game-play. And also sometimes, I would say a lot of times you can't put everything that belongs on a certain fig for cost, effectiveness, gameplay. The hard part is deciding what to leave off. IMO savage, or not subject to ce's is not a big deal and should be an easy choice when deciding what to leave off.
When making a fig for a game, gameplay always comes before flavor. Telling me that flavor wise the piece is broken is not an argument to have savage. If anything it hurts your argument.
Personally I could care less if he has savage or is a follower. If its not broken in gameplay, then it's not broken.

IMO, it's a bad move to just add, "not subject to ce's" as part of his new ability. Seems very forced. If you really feel that strongly about him benefitting from ce's then you must go savage. And if someone wants to spend points on empethy and then still try and break him, then so be it, easy win for me.

Bottom line, this is a game, no argument stating a piece is broken flavor wise is going to ever get support from me. We as gamers and now acting as designers must see past this or we fail as designers, and have no business creating figures for a game.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:41 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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sthlrd2 wrote:
Personally I could care less if he has savage or is a follower. If its not broken in gameplay, then it's not broken.
...
Bottom line, this is a game, no argument stating a piece is broken flavor wise is going to ever get support from me. We as gamers and now acting as designers must see past this or we fail as designers, and have no business creating figures for a game.


Nonsense. We're playing Star Wars because we like the theme. We aren't giving the Sarlacc Speed 10, Lightsaber Assault, or Yuuzhan Vong War Coordinator because it doesn't make sense thematically. Neither does it make sense for him to be subject to CEs. You're right that we can't fit everything that we might like and we have to decide what to include/exclude, but I think the CE restriction is a big one.

My preference is for a statement "not subject to CEs" instead of Savage, but it's only a slight preference. The reason I prefer it is just that it will take up less room on the card. Savage would be a whole new SA and the definition printed on the card would include the irrelevant movement restriction. "Not subject to CEs" would be tossed onto one of the other new SAs so it would only be a half line. The Empathy/Celeste Morne boost doesn't bother me, though, if people wanted to use Savage and go that route.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:03 am 
Black Sun Thug
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FlyingArrow wrote:
komix wrote:
I don't really understand why nearly all of the presented versions have damage presented as 0. I know that in film he wasn't in best shape, but that doesn't mean that he (it) is so weak. Go play TFU 1.

What's the point of using Sarlacc if he (mostly) would only strike 1 character via special ability??
IMO Sarlacc should have high HP, mid-def mid att and dam at least at 20. Otherwise, I don't see myself using it at all. He won't ever be a game changer but let's create a DECENT version.
Savage SA is a must, come on :P Via this SA he gets boosted by Celeste and Malakii.


The 0 (or at most 10) is because the Sarlacc didn't inflict damages on attacks. It grabbed and pulled and if you fell in you were dead. If you got caught and got away, you were fine. More importantly, though, is that people are shooting for 20s and 30s for a cost, not 50s and 60s. Hence the lower damage output. Being a huge movement hindrance is valuable.

Once again- which Sarlacc are we have in mind ? The one from ROTJ or the one from TFU1? I was thinking about making a generic mix between theese 2. It can hit quite hard with tentacles and if it kills someone (living of course)- it digest him in stomack so it gets back 10 hp back (with save).
I'm personally shooting for 40-55s cost.
UrbanShmi wrote:
It can probably be one or the other. Either the base damage is low (probably 10), and it can have Savage to get boosted by Celeste and Malakili, or else the base damage is higher, and it's just not subject to CEs at all. With Clamp he would already be at 20 damage most of the time (assuming the target fails the save), and then Celeste would put him at 30, and Malakili would make it unavoidable. Depending on the total number of attacks, I could see 30 being okay. 40 or more gets a little crazy. The piece should be playable, but not ridiculous, imo.

EDIT: And, yeah, pretty much what Flying Arrow said.

Let's not go ahead of ourselfes ;) 30 dam-dishout is I guess ok. (And that includes Celeste, Malakili boosts).
In times when most characters have way of getting FP it doesn't make sense to putting all the eggs in one basket- it attacks only throu SA with saves? (In that case it forces player using Sarlacc to use Malakili- so it's cost rises )
FYI in my Sarlacc build doesn't have Clamp, so there you go :D No worries about 40 dam :P
sthlrd2 wrote:
komix wrote:
I don't really understand why nearly all of the presented versions have damage presented as 0. I know that in film he wasn't in best shape, but that doesn't mean that he (it) is so weak. Go play TFU 1.

What's the point of using Sarlacc if he (mostly) would only strike 1 character via special ability??
IMO Sarlacc should have high HP, mid-def mid att and dam at least at 20. Otherwise, I don't see myself using it at all. He won't ever be a game changer but let's create a DECENT version.
Savage SA is a must, come on :P Via this SA he gets boosted by Celeste and Malakii.

Well if your not happy with any of the stats, then post your own. Don't just tell us we have bad stats and are not making good. You should at least give some suggestions.


Acually I did- this maybe shows that You Sir don't read each post in this topic :lol:. Do that and then criticize me.
sthlrd2 wrote:
Go ahead put savage on him and boost him with Celeste, he won't be optimized. In order for the Sarlac to be optimized is to have a way to force your opponent to him.

I thought that special ability Sunken which was used before was pretty nice. It forced opponents to move towards it(at least within 3), which at this point would make those opponents subject to attacks via melee reach 3. Of course it still needs work on definition, but I really liked where this was going on.

FlyingArrow wrote:
My preference is for a statement "not subject to CEs" instead of Savage, but it's only a slight preference. The reason I prefer it is just that it will take up less room on the card. Savage would be a whole new SA and the definition printed on the card would include the irrelevant movement restriction. "Not subject to CEs" would be tossed onto one of the other new SAs so it would only be a half line. The Empathy/Celeste Morne boost doesn't bother me, though, if people wanted to use Savage and go that route.

Who says that we have to print Savage def on card?? It's not a new ability so we can save up some space here.

FlyingArrow wrote:
Points of disagreement:

Damage output level: High Damage VS Low Damage w/Movement Hindrance
Move adjacent when attacked VS Move adjacent when moving
Savage VS Specific restriction that it's not subject to CEs
Provides Cover VS Does Not
Stealth/Advantageous Cover VS Cannot be attacked outside 3 squares

-bolded my picks.
FlyingArrow good points.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:35 am 
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here's my Combination of Ideas approach

Sarlacc
Cost: 30
HP: 150
Def: 18
Att: 12
Dam: 10

SA:
Melee Attack; Double Attack; Melee Reach 4
Emplacement (Cannot move or be moved. Set up anywhere on your half of the battle map.)
Indiscriminate (This character ignores abilities and commander effects that prevent enemy characters from being targeted or attacked)
Resilient (Immune to critical hits.)
Callous (This character may target allies with it's attacks, special abilities, and force powers.)
Sarlacc (Not subject to commander effects. This character does not provide Cover and always has Cover against attackers farther than 3 squares away. Whenever this character defeats a living character remove 10 Damage. You may not have more than one character with Sarlacc in your squad.)
Clamp (An enemy hit by this character's attack takes +10 Damage and cannot move this round; save 11 negates)
Stealth (If this character has cover, he does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)
Advantageous Cover (+8 Defense from cover instead of +4)

Glossary:
Callous: Characters with this ability may target allied characters as well as enemy characters with it's attacks, Special Abilities, and Force Powers. An allied character is subject to targetting rules as though they were an enemy, and any effect that mentions enemy characters applies to the ally as though they were an enemy. Allies defeated in this way grant the opponent victory points as normal.

Sarlacc: This character cannot be bolstered or hindered by commander effects. Characters cannot recieve a cover bonus from this character and this character does not block line of sight, also this character benefits from cover whenever it is attacked by an attacker farther than 3 squares away regardless of terrain or low objects on the battle map. This type of character is rare to encounter so you may not include more than one character with this ability when squad-building. Ignore this ability's squad-building restriction in "Out of the Box" games.


26 defense against attackers more than 3 squares away. Not quite as powerful as unable to attack - but certainly difficult to actually hit.

Callous isn't essential, but since it's use is optional it's not a hinderance by any means (makes for a good way to "sacrifice" that MTB you brought and the Sarlacc gains 10 HP for it).

Editted for what feels appropriate at a cost of 30 (dropped 10 Damage, 20 HP, Triple for Double, added Resilient). By my estimation written as is, this combination would take up 24 lines (only 1 more than the Yammosk War Coordinator).


Last edited by Lord_Ball on Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:41 am 
Third Jedi from the Left
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I feel like a melee emplacement piece like this is going to be a free 35 points for your opponent. There are just to many ways to hit it without ever having to really get near it to fight it. I prefer the previous ideas, where you have to be within x to attack it. It is, after all, a pit, and in order to shoot down a pit (without flight) you should have to get pretty close to it.

One thing i was thinking was we could give it some reach, and then a special ability to make attacks of opportunity when an enemy gets within x squares. This could actually give it some competitive play, as you could place it in a strategic spot, and enemies who try and get past it would have to either engage it, or risk getting an AoO, and then being clamped before they can get away. Use it as a sort of movement breaker leading into gambit or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:17 am 
Black Sun Thug
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adamb0nd wrote:
One thing i was thinking was we could give it some reach, and then a special ability to make attacks of opportunity when an enemy gets within x squares. This could actually give it some competitive play, as you could place it in a strategic spot, and enemies who try and get past it would have to either engage it, or risk getting an AoO, and then being clamped before they can get away. Use it as a sort of movement breaker leading into gambit or something.



You mean like:

UrbanShmi wrote:

Tentacles: Enemy characters within three squares are considered adjacent for purposes of attacks of opportunity. An enemy hit by this character's attack is immediately placed one square away from this character, save 6. This character can make more than one attack of opportunity per turn.



Which I suggested yesterday ;) ?

(P.S. I hope this doesn't sound snarky. I just wanted to point this suggestion out, as no one's said a word about it and I actually thought it was a pretty good one).


Last edited by UrbanShmi on Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:07 am 
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adamb0nd wrote:
I feel like a melee emplacement piece like this is going to be a free 35 points for your opponent. There are just to many ways to hit it without ever having to really get near it to fight it. I prefer the previous ideas, where you have to be within x to attack it. It is, after all, a pit, and in order to shoot down a pit (without flight) you should have to get pretty close to it.


I wouldn't put too much faith in the cost - this is such a unique piece in play style that the cost is the most arbitrary thing on it and throrough playtesting will be required to find a truely appropriate cost once the stats are finalized.

Besides that both approaches (high defense outside of x, and cannot be attacked outside of x) are going to have a lot of the same problems due to it still being targettable by grenades/lightning, etc. The only real difference is that all but the best shooters (or a lucky roll) are likely to need a decent amount of combined fire to hit it.

On it's own the sarlacc is a sitting duck - and really why shouldn't it be? it's immobile and has a limited range - that's the nature of the "beast", however this is a squad game so it will not be alone. High HP, High Defense from range, and Assistance from the rest of the squad should ensure it's not a free "X" points for your opponent.

Perhaps slapping on Resilient just to pad the defenses a little more?

I'm strongly against the inability to attack outside of a given range as t me it's just not how the Sarlacc was ever portraited in SW lore.

Difficult to attack/hit sure, but unable what's your basis for this? Unless your going to make exceptions for charcters with flight (as they wouldn't have any trouble getting a proper angle to make an attack though perhaps at a penalty), but then things start to get unecessarily complicated.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:28 pm 
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It seems to be getting a little heated. And partly due to some of the things I said. But still we should all be able to cooporate if we agree on abilities or not.

About me not reading every post. Not true. "From a certain point of view". I work 70 hours a week and still have to pick my wife and kids up everyday due to only having one car. I've been trying very hard to stay active in this thread so yes I have skimmed through some of them, but I have read through the entire thread. If I was insulting anyone it was not by intent.

I would rather see a Sarlacc cost about 25-35. It seems I am not in the minority here. Sure I think you could make a really strong and expensive one but IMO, one that is cheaper will see more play. I'd prefer to see the Sarlacc that is deadly if you could get your opponent there. Jabba transported his enemy's there in Rotj, if not for that the Sarlacc wouldn't have been a threat.
That is why I prefer base 10 damage and an ability that states when an adjacent character activates it takes 30 damage and can not move this turn, save 11.

I think stealth and Advantagous cover are fine to represent a pit and would help to not break it in terms of gameplay.
It seems forced to me to add "not subject to ce's" to a new ability. I think Savage is fine to represent that and it would save space on the card and not require more glossary work. I don't think it's a big deal at all for him just to remain a follower. Save even more space on the card and IMO that is something that isn't important to add and would be fine to leave off. I know others feel different and that is fine. I dont have a problem with him having savage. I do have a problem with adding "not subject to ce's" to a new ability. Like I said, it more space on the card and more glossary work will be required, and it feels forced to me.

I view the Sarlacc as decent but not deadly unless you can force your opponent there.

These are just my opinions and I've posted stat lines that I thought were suitable.

I've had some of my ideas used on v-set cards, I feel as if I have more good ideas and can only hope that others like my ideas towards a Sarlacc. If not then fine, oh well.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:29 pm 
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I like what alot of people have been doing with this and there are alot of really great suggestions. Here is a blended Idea:


Sarlacc
Cost:
HP: 170
Def: 18
Att: 12
Dam: 20

SA:
Melee Attack; Triple Attack; Melee Reach 3
Stealth, Emplacement, Indiscriminate

Sarlacc (Not subject to commander effects. T You may not have more than one character with Sarlacc in your squad.)

Diminished Line of Sight: If this character has cover, it cannot be targeted by enemies father than 3 squares.

Tentacles: Enemy characters within three squares are considered adjacent for purposes of attacks of opportunity. An enemy hit by this character's attack is immediately placed one square away from this character, save 6. This character can make more than one attack of opportunity per turn.

Edited: meant to remove some sarlacc text

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Regarding cost and flavor if we can make it 30 or less so that it could be brought in by Jabba's Reins would be aces.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:57 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
Regarding cost and flavor if we can make it 30 or less so that it could be brought in by Jabba's Reins would be aces.


I like your thinking editting my last proposal to accomplish this.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:00 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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A couple of new thoughts...

What about Draw Fire? The idea being that a Sarlacc is a difficult thing to ignore.

If we go the route of damage on a save while adjacent, what if there is auto damage plus a save to reduce it (like proximity mines).

When an adjacent character activates, it takes 40 damage. Save 11 reduces damage to 10.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:02 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Lord_Ball wrote:
Perhaps slapping on Resilient just to pad the defenses a little more?


Not just to pad defenses - it makes a lot of sense. The critical parts of the sarlacc are not what people would be attacking. Great idea... assuming there's room on the card. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:07 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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UrbanShmi wrote:
Tentacles: Enemy characters within three squares are considered adjacent for purposes of attacks of opportunity. An enemy hit by this character's attack is immediately placed one square away from this character, save 6. This character can make more than one attack of opportunity per turn.


I sort of assumed there was some problem with it that Sithborg would tell us about. It just seems to mess with the game rules too much. I don't see a problem myself, though. If there's no problem with it, I like it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:28 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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Lord_Ball wrote:
On it's own the sarlacc is a sitting duck - and really why shouldn't it be? it's immobile and has a limited range


This is partially true. But its also a subterranean creature. Its the nature of such a beast that you usually can't fire at it until you're at the edge of the pit, looking down at it... unless you have flight or an arcing weapon like a grenade or mortar. Yeah, this game simplifies such real life physics... so maybe the improved cover and stealth is sufficient, but i feel like accurate shot completely negates that and shouldn't necessarily.

Quote:
UrbanShmi wrote:

Tentacles: Enemy characters within three squares are considered adjacent for purposes of attacks of opportunity. An enemy hit by this character's attack is immediately placed one square away from this character, save 6. This character can make more than one attack of opportunity per turn.


Yeah, something like that. Your variant does a little more which is cool with me), but stripped down, I think clamp + "Tentacles: Enemy characters within three squares are considered adjacent for purposes of attacks of opportunity." would be sufficient.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:07 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
UrbanShmi wrote:
Tentacles: Enemy characters within three squares are considered adjacent for purposes of attacks of opportunity. An enemy hit by this character's attack is immediately placed one square away from this character, save 6. This character can make more than one attack of opportunity per turn.


I sort of assumed there was some problem with it that Sithborg would tell us about. It just seems to mess with the game rules too much. I don't see a problem myself, though. If there's no problem with it, I like it.


I think the original one I posted (where enemy characters could also make attacks from three squares away, regardless of targeting rules) could have been problematic. This one is almost a souped-up Jedi Reflexes, so I don't see where there should be a big issue with it. The only essential part of it, for me, is that he/it be able to make AoOs within three squares--the rest of it was just as an alternative for people who wanted to simulate characters having to dodge the tentacles to avoid being dragged into his mouth. If being able to make more than one AoO is a problem, I would be fine with dropping that. But I don't think the essential part of it (extending Melee Reach to attacks on other characters' turns) ought to be a major issue.

I like the idea of additional defensive abilities, such as Resilient or Draw Fire. At some point, we'll need to balance those against HP to keep the cost in check, but it's definitely an idea worth throwing on the pile.


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