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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:56 pm 
Moff Disra
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Is it time to switch back to 150 for the champs?

Taking out that 50 points is huge.
Mace is the face looses a utility fig (Panaka or the guy with lift)
Imp Thrawn looses a shooter or commander
Naboo death shots looses shooters or goes to single death shot
Lancer drops the shooter and figs or a Lancer and firepower
Rebels (when did anyone play a rebel squad last?)
Vong/Mando/NR - well, maybe they should be allowed to play 180 points when everyone else plays 150 (if they go faction pure - I'm only kind of joking)
OR - it's less support for their good shooter

Overall there will be fewer figs on the board (resulting in faster games). 150 or 2 is the new statement

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:32 pm 
Master of the Order
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Engineer wrote:
Is it time to switch back to 150 for the champs?

Taking out that 50 points is huge.
Mace is the face looses a utility fig (Panaka or the guy with lift)
Imp Thrawn looses a shooter or commander
Naboo death shots looses shooters or goes to single death shot
Lancer drops the shooter and figs or a Lancer and firepower
Rebels (when did anyone play a rebel squad last?)
Vong/Mando/NR - well, maybe they should be allowed to play 180 points when everyone else plays 150 (if they go faction pure - I'm only kind of joking)
OR - it's less support for their good shooter

Overall there will be fewer figs on the board (resulting in faster games). 150 or 2 is the new statement

Thoughts?


Completely open to the thought, deserves discussion. Probably deserves it's own thread


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:11 am 
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Engineer wrote:
Is it time to switch back to 150 for the champs?

Taking out that 50 points is huge.
Mace is the face looses a utility fig (Panaka or the guy with lift)
Imp Thrawn looses a shooter or commander
Naboo death shots looses shooters or goes to single death shot
Lancer drops the shooter and figs or a Lancer and firepower
Rebels (when did anyone play a rebel squad last?)
Vong/Mando/NR - well, maybe they should be allowed to play 180 points when everyone else plays 150 (if they go faction pure - I'm only kind of joking)
OR - it's less support for their good shooter

Overall there will be fewer figs on the board (resulting in faster games). 150 or 2 is the new statement

Thoughts?


My first instinct is that it makes Mace really strong - I think he's better at 150 than he is at 200 - some of the squads that do well against him like Vong, Imperial Shooter squads, and Naboo Death Shot aren't going to work so well at 150 as the underlying tech takes up such a big proportion of the squad.

Also, I prefer 200 to 150, because the change:
a) will reduce the number of viable builds - there are a lot of good 200 point squads at the moment, and the game is pretty well balanced. I might be wrong, but I think that a lot of the tech is scaled for 200 points; Bastila won't be as effective at 150, the Yammosk/Nen Yim combo is too expensive for 150, and it could mean those factions were back to near where they were before Destiny of the Force.

b) I think 200 takes more skill to run than 150 - the smaller the game, the more luck becomes a factor. After managing a 200 point squad, going back to 100 or 150 really reduces the number of decisions you have to make, which to me is less fun.


Last edited by TheHutts on Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:00 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:49 am 
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+1 to this idea. 150 was a great format when it was the main format. Windu would get stronger but the tourney scene would eventually adjust to deal with it or the figure would be banned.

Also 150 would reduce the issues were having with end of time rounds and 2pt wins since with less pts we can assume that more turns would happen in a game.

Lastly 150 would do some really interesting things to bigger cost figs. I think Marka Ragnos could be a total beast in the format when he isnt getting lit up for 40 a shot from Atton or getting shot at four times by storm commandos.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:53 am 
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TheHutts wrote:
b) I think 200 takes more skill to run than 150 - the smaller the game, the more luck becomes a factor. After managing a 200 point squad, going back to 100 or 150 really reduces the number of decisions you have to make, which to me is less fun.


This.

My take is that 150 is much more of a test of squad-building, while 200 is more of a test of player skill. To build an effective squad at 150, you have to be very focused on what you want the squad to do and cutting out all of the stuff that doesn't help you accomplish that. You have more room for balance and meta-related adjustments at 200, which means that the builds tend to be more forgiving, and more varied.

On the other hand, because there are fewer viable options at 150, there are fewer surprises. I think more comes down to the match-up, or "luck," which has been completely demonized in this thread (I won't get back into whether that's a good or bad thing). At 200, even though you have more options, you also have more decisions, as TheHutts points out. You have a lot of different way to achieve your objective, and how you decide to do that can have a major impact on how the game will go. That can make games take longer, but it also makes them more interesting and unpredictable. Which I think is only a good thing.

All that said, I think 150 is a fun format, and I would love to see it more a part of the competitive scene. However, I still think that the very top level of competition (GenCon champs, regionals) needs to stay at 200 points.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:47 am 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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hinkbert wrote:
Personally I think GOWK and SSM is fine the way it is, and I like to make a few points.

In terms of tournaments won using GOWK and his dominance, all of those were won by 2 individuals (unless I missed someone somewhere), those 2 people being myself and TinT. I can't speak for Trevor, but I know I used my GOWK/Mace squad a lot because I enjoy it and I wanted to practice a lot with a solid squad for my first competitive year of playing. My point being: I don't think 2 unique players using a GOWK squad = dominance. There were other GOWK squads out there and they didn't perform as well. The meta is wide open and there are a ton of options, including viable options to deal with GOWK and (most importantly) they can deal with GOWK in a timely manner. Which brings me to my second point.

Earlier in the thread it was brought up that GOWK can make games take longer and deny someone a 3 point win. There's another popular style of squad out there that can also do this, the death shot squads (specifically the Republic version). Considering that most of those squads have nearly 120 points tied up in commanders, it can be incredibly difficult to get enough points, or to kill all the pieces, and get a 3 point win. It's something we have to deal with in the game right now and I don't think it's a large enough of a problem that requires the banning of any pieces. That being said, it is incredibly important the players play quickly and decisively so that rounds can move fast. Every player should have access to myriad squad ideas and they should be able to play them if they so desire. Which brings me to my final point.

Rather than banning pieces or handing out errata, the designers should continue to make pieces that keep the meta fresh and vibrant. They have already shown the collective aplomb that they can do this and we should continue to let them do that.

Now, if we get to this point next year, or even prior to regionals, and it's been all "GOWK this and GOWK that", then maybe the notion of a errata should be looked at, but I sincerely doubt that'll happen. I believe it will remain a solid squad, just like Skybuck (as Bill so slyly showed us at Gencon) but that doesn't give enough of a reason to nerf it.

That's my $.02 at least.


Quoted in full because it deserves it.

I would also like to say that I think our current meta is more vibrant and less stupid than the meta last year or the year before that, with the exception of Naboo deathshot squads. Losing to Mace and GOWK isn't very much fun, especially if it feels as though you "only" lost because Mace rolled crits and/or GOWK rolled saves, but it still beats the pants off of losing to a slow lancer squad that you literally cannot respond to in any way, shape, or form. Or a Rebel squad that snipes with Han and then locks every door on the whole map.

I do think increasing Mace's cost to 75 points, or removing flurry, would be good things. I also appreciate the general consensus against erratas and accept that they just aren't going to happen. And if - IF - we do decide to errata anything, it needs to be virtual Panaka and Poggle before anything else! And if Mace or GOWK or Bastila or whoever seems too good, the developers and playtesting team need to work together to create counters or alternatives.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:56 am 
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I would also say that the 100 pt format poses a challenge to one's squads building prowess. To be honest, I was very disappointed that it was not part of the Jedi Challenge this year.

Personally I think tinkering with the Championship would be a mistake, keep it at 200.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:57 am 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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Paging back through the thread, I think it's pretty funny that we have

1. Tim talking about how much he hates Mace and GOWK
2. Daniel talking about how much he hates Bastila
3. Me talking about how much I hate Naboo deathshots

I think if you put the three of us behind a podium we could all come up with a pretty well-reasoned and solid-sounding five minute argument for why our particular grievance has the most merit and therefore THAT piece should be banned/errata'ed/nerfed/given a counter. And if you put the next three or five or ten people and asked them about their least favorite pieces they could do the same thing. A good meta isn't about having the warm fuzzy for every team that might be top-tier. It's about having legitimate options to win games with, of which at least one or two do give you the warm fuzzy.

As far as I can tell, no one is arguing that Mace and GOWK are so good and so broken that they drive practically everything out of the meta and therefore ruin it. Hey, that's the meta. I played a whole lot of slow lancer games in 2011 that involved 15 minutes of my opponent watching in frustration as I wrecked their whole squad and they couldn't do anything in return. This year at Gencon I got to play against Deri's godawful matchup from Nightmare Land squad. There will always be squads that the squads we like lose to, or that are particularly miserable to lose against. Unless those NPEs come to define the game, instead of merely being a small part of it, I think we're all right.

PS: If GOWK makes his saves, at least I'm not being punished for attacking my opponent's pieces, which I kind of thought was like the entire point of the game. Deathshots are so stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:05 am 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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Engineer wrote:
Is it time to switch back to 150 for the champs?

Taking out that 50 points is huge.
Mace is the face looses a utility fig (Panaka or the guy with lift)
Imp Thrawn looses a shooter or commander
Naboo death shots looses shooters or goes to single death shot
Lancer drops the shooter and figs or a Lancer and firepower
Rebels (when did anyone play a rebel squad last?)
Vong/Mando/NR - well, maybe they should be allowed to play 180 points when everyone else plays 150 (if they go faction pure - I'm only kind of joking)
OR - it's less support for their good shooter

Overall there will be fewer figs on the board (resulting in faster games). 150 or 2 is the new statement

Thoughts?


Ugh. Please no. Your descriptions aren't even close to accurate. That Mace squad loses Panaka and Foul. Thrawn squads lose Pellaeon and Lobot. Naboo death shots do not work. Lancer loses the lancer and an IG-86. I could go on and on.

Not to mention that 150 is just not enough points for OR or Sith to field a competitive squad with the pieces we have right now. You know, the two factions that we have relentlessly pumped up ever since taking over design - successfully!

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:40 am 
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It also makes GOWK a bigger issue. The whole point of this thread. That was a large point in the many, many, many GOWK fights years ago. He wasn't as big of a problem in 200 as 150. And nothing I've seen changes that. If he is a problem in 200, then he is a big problem in 150.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:36 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
It also makes GOWK a bigger issue. The whole point of this thread. That was a large point in the many, many, many GOWK fights years ago. He wasn't as big of a problem in 200 as 150. And nothing I've seen changes that. If he is a problem in 200, then he is a big problem in 150.

Scott is correct.

Meta opens up at 200 as pieces that are cost prohibitive at 150 become options at 200.

The lower attacks available at 150 make GOWK a more difficult prospect to deal with.

Rebels, due to their design of high powered figs and commanders for low cost are favoured at 150.

Essentially, I feel changing the point cost just alters the meta and currently I think it would be a narrower meta. However, the principles of successful squads probably remains

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:48 am 
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I do heavily disagree with Bastila not doing well under 200pts. Ask Lou how much he dominated with his Bastila and Battlemasters squad at 100pts. Lou - did you ever even lose a game with it?

I see the point about less overall squads becoming viable at 150, but some new ones would become viable that weren't before. The meta would change with any point level change.

But seriously everyone - Let's start a new thread if we're going to discuss changing to 150pt level anymore. It's WAAAAAAYYY off topic.

greentime wrote:
PS: If GOWK makes his saves, at least I'm not being punished for attacking my opponent's pieces, which I kind of thought was like the entire point of the game. Deathshots are so stupid.


So to paraphrase to turn it into a direct statement -
"I kinda thought attacking my opponents pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

Sigged!

This does reinforce my point that anything that allows a character the chance to defend EVERY attack is bad. And SSM + lightsaber combat expert DOES punish you back for attacking. FOR FREE. Even Bastila and disruptive can't stop that. Zannah = stupid crap. PS - I hate deathshots too!

greentime wrote:
Paging back through the thread, I think it's pretty funny that we have

1. Tim talking about how much he hates Mace and GOWK
2. Daniel talking about how much he hates Bastila
3. Me talking about how much I hate Naboo deathshots

I think if you put the three of us behind a podium we could all come up with a pretty well-reasoned and solid-sounding five minute argument for why our particular grievance has the most merit and therefore THAT piece should be banned/errata'ed/nerfed/given a counter. And if you put the next three or five or ten people and asked them about their least favorite pieces they could do the same thing. A good meta isn't about having the warm fuzzy for every team that might be top-tier. It's about having legitimate options to win games with, of which at least one or two do give you the warm fuzzy.

As far as I can tell, no one is arguing that Mace and GOWK are so good and so broken that they drive practically everything out of the meta and therefore ruin it. Hey, that's the meta. There will always be squads that the squads we like lose to, or that are particularly miserable to lose against. Unless those NPEs come to define the game, instead of merely being a small part of it, I think we're all right.


This is a great post. It has given me a lot of perspective. I think I'm moving on from this thread.


Last edited by TimmerB123 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:50 am 
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Changing the championship to 150 only makes GOWK/Mace better. R2 tows mace into possition, mace kills 1 thing, game over. In 200 you can afford to spread your guys out and make mace attack 1 at a time. At 150 your pretty well committed to one fig being your main gun/beat with support spread around it, at 200 you can go with a few guys having that job.

The 150 meta is boring. 2007-2009 rebels are still top dogs in that format, Greg won the 150 at gencon with Lobbin Luke (the 2009 Championship squad). I really don't want to go back to that. At 200 the meta opens up to where you have a conceivable shot at winning with any faction. Heck, Sith made top 8 at gencon this year which has never happened before. Would Sith have any chance of doing that at 150? Probably not.

Keep it at 200.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:51 am 
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Yes time i have lost 1 game with Bastile out of like 25 or 30


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:04 am 
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Weeks wrote:
Changing the championship to 150 only makes GOWK/Mace better. R2 tows mace into possition, mace kills 1 thing, game over. In 200 you can afford to spread your guys out and make mace attack 1 at a time. At 150 your pretty well committed to one fig being your main gun/beat with support spread around it, at 200 you can go with a few guys having that job.


Do you believe this is true with set-4? What do the new Luke and Palpatine do to the Mace/GOWK combo?

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The 150 meta is boring. 2007-2009 rebels are still top dogs in that format, Greg won the 150 at gencon with Lobbin Luke (the 2009 Championship squad). I really don't want to go back to that. At 200 the meta opens up to where you have a conceivable shot at winning with any faction. Heck, Sith made top 8 at gencon this year which has never happened before. Would Sith have any chance of doing that at 150? Probably not.

Keep it at 200.


I prefer the game to stay at 200 as well, but that said I don't think we can consider a 2009 outcome to be the resulting meta 4-5 v-sets later. :)

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:18 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Do you believe this is true with set-4? What do the new Luke and Palpatine do to the Mace/GOWK combo?


I playtested this match a lot in preperation for the BHC as well as when I was asked to playtest the figures before printing. Luke is a 100 pt answer to a 65 pt fig. So while he does beat Windu in most cases (75% roughly) he is still a more expensive answer. Also then you have to set up your support very properly since you only have 100pts left.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:33 pm 
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Palpatine has parry, mastery of the force 2, and renewal 3. He also has a big lightning that has a high chance of activating his target and he goes first. So he would at least have a chance to survive Mace also, and he usually has a Vader nearby to help out. If he survives Mace, he can put a good hurting on Gowk too.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:41 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Do you believe this is true with set-4? What do the new Luke and Palpatine do to the Mace/GOWK combo?


I playtested this match a lot in preperation for the BHC as well as when I was asked to playtest the figures before printing. Luke is a 100 pt answer to a 65 pt fig. So while he does beat Windu in most cases (75% roughly) he is still a more expensive answer. Also then you have to set up your support very properly since you only have 100pts left.


This was the squad I ran as a "protector" (judge):

100 Luke Skywalker, Master of the Order
046 Kyle Katarn, Combat Instructor
045 Mara Jade, Jedi
009 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3

Kyle gave everyone Lightsaber Duelist and Luke transferred damage to Mara so her attack and defense went up. On rounds I won init, Luke would run 12 and assault + twin the biggest enemy threat for 120 damage. Against something like Mace, I would only be able to run 12 and hit for 60 at a time, then take the punch back hoping that Djem So Mastery would put some extra hurt on him. I don't agree it's a "100 pt. answer to a 65 pt." challenge. The Luke can do so much more. He is meant to cripple/kill a high hp figure in a single turn. He is paper - the counter to rock, but he falls to heavy shooter and swarm squads (scissors). 80-120 damage means nothing when the highest hp guy is between 30-50 and you are outactivated at a rate of 3-1, and with tempo control.

If I had it to do over again, especially if I wanted to play it far more cutthroat, I'd dump Kyle and run a Jedi Demolitionist and more filler so that I could bubble away the damage that gets passed via Luke's Bodyguard.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:49 pm 
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Lou wrote:
Yes time i have lost 1 game with Bastile out of like 25 or 30


I believe I beat you once. Unless that is the 1 time you are talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:28 pm 
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Bump. Because reasons.

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