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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Echo wrote:
Trevor was certainly thinking of Weir squads. And he's right in that there was only 1, which was shocking. The fact is that the GenCon meta this year was ripe for GOWK/Mace to win. There were a few counters around (Graham's HK squad and my Naboo squad), but not many, and when they did meet up the Mace players were often either better or luckier than their opponent. If more counters had showed up (or just more Weir, which was expected by many people) I agree with Trevor that this conversation either wouldn't even be happening or have a much different tone. GOWK was played by one of the best players in the world and the meta was favorable for it, so he won. Calling that "domination" is pure disingenuity.


Weir isn't the only counter with Pellaeon. Arica and Cad Bane shooting from the bubble so Mace cannot reflect and GOWK cannot reroll is massive. I really think my squad can beat Mace/Gowk squads, but unfortunately in the champs I never faced any.

I would have the same stance on GOWK (really it's about SSM) no matter what happened this year. I hate SSM with a passion (in case that wasn't already clear). The issue for me is that ATTACKS are what this game is founded on. I have no problem with alternate damage, but it should never be a requirement to win. Someone has parry? I can use a non-melee ATTACK. Someone has evade? I can use an adjacent ATTACK. Someone has SSM? You are screwed with attacks. Don't bother listing the ways to get around it - I know all of them. None are really that viable. You should always be able to ATTACK characters and have a shot at winning. If someone is rolling hot with GOWK - you really can't.

For me - this boils down to luck up and skill down

GOWK winning the world championship just gives more reason to bring it up.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:22 pm 
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I also had Pelleon, and my squad was pure Mace hate. And I don't see how the GOWK squad could win, since the only reliable way of damage would be Push 3, and when my Darktroopers are bunched up, tough to push them apart. Sure, I would've had to rely on Missiles for Damage, but it is interesting to see how quickly Force Immune Missile damage can add up.

Still, I like this meta a bit more than when Mouse Dump/Sep Droids were at the top.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:11 pm 
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But at the same time Tim, that assumes that you are playing a "balanced" melee/shooty squad. Take your stealth and blue for instance and it really doesn't matter if SSM is against melee or not. It is the same vs your squad. Very similar to Eric Larson's vong squad this year (all melee) so against someone with parry he is hosed. BTW he went 2-2 (with both losses against top 8 finishers) before his War at Sea events fired up and he had to leave the championship. And I think he was the only Vong player.

We all know what pieces are out there and know how are squad does against them. So we play the meta or we hope we don't face our bad matchups. I had reasonably good matchup against Mace squads this year but didn't play a single one.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:56 pm 
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Yep, as I said, I was lucky in my matchups. :) I did face an IG-86 swarm with HK-47, but it was sub-optimal (no BDO, etc), so it didn't end up being as difficult a matchup as it could've been. I managed to dodge the pilots, and I never faced an Imperial squad (I agree that Jason's squad would've been real trouble).

And Tim, I had a variant on your Cad/Arica squad that I ALMOST brought instead of GOWK/Mace, because I thought it had a good chance against so many of the squads I expected to see (Naboo, Mace, IG-86s, etc). Cad with Opportunist and Force Immunity is just sick! In practice one time with Josh, I had already killed Mace by the start of round 2; then we re-started that game and Mace was dead after round 4 or 5 (this was before his Shieldbearer version, though). The squad is fragile, but with its tricks and massive unavoidable damage output, it's a monster. Pelleon adds SO much to the Imperials!

And lastly,
Lou wrote:
Just for the record I am much happier with the meta now than when every body had tempo control. I know Mace/GOWK are a pain in the butt but at least you get to attack them.
Just for another record, I agree 101% :D

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:20 pm 
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I dont mind SSM. It's annoying sure but there are ways around it. Mainly just killing everything else and pounding on Obi till he starts failing saves. Most T1 teams either have some form of Direct Damage or just put out SO much damage anyway that 1-2 failed saves puts him almost dead.

I faced GOWK twice at Gencon (Trevor and Josh) and could have won either if I'd made some better tactical choices. All I used was Revan and Exar's Dark aura and I took both of their GOWK's down to the wire. If I had one more round of attacks I could have killed either.

I'm never a fan of banning/removing pieces. If I'm going to win I don't want an * beside it saying what was banned when I won. Putting a few more abilities in to counter SSM would be better. Look at Saba Sebatine, she can walk right up to obi and punch him square in the mouth and kill him no problem. Satele Shan is really good at Parrying so she can run up and outlast him as well.

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For me - this boils down to luck up and skill down


Exactly! Because lesser experienced players made the top 8 at Gencon this year with GOWK........wait, only two made it. One of those two won 2 Regionals this year and the other is probably the best in the world, so that argument is out.

Luck has some to do with it but skill is the reason those two and only those two made it. If people could control luck we would see a lot more BFBH, and those people would probably be wizards, and that would be awesome.

Whatever wins gencon always gets complained about right after. Dodonna is too strong, Bastilla is too strong, GOWK/Mace is too strong......whatever. The best players win. Don't give the tool more credit then the master.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
Don't give the tool more credit then the master.

I like that! It has so much applicability to life! Sigged, right alongside Tim's comment about slapping slow players in DD. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:33 pm 
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I also played a Mace hate squad with Pellaeon:

Fuzz N Blue

Wookiee Thug x 2
Cad Bane
Thrawn
Pellaeon
Ozzel
Mas
Lobot
Ugnaught x 2

I only played 1 Mace/Gowk squad; Wannabemexican's. A 3pt win for me.

I thought I'd see more Mace/Gowk and Revan/Kaan, both of which this squad plays well against. Obviously I misread the meta.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:49 pm 
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Ahh, yes, Kaan is a great equalizer vs GOWK for Sith. Take out at least a third of his HP gaurenteed when he dies.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:16 pm 
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@Trevor-
There were a few paelion squads, just 1 Weir (Spry's) I think it was the only one. To be honest, I was expecting more, but I think that is because (and maybe it's just me who thinks this) that Weir squads are good but they are consistently 2 pnt squads. Meaning if you win with one, it's a 2 pnt win, and if you win against one it's a 2 pnt win (on most occasions). I beat Spry and his Weir and am surprised because Weir and Storm Commandos were one of the toughest matchups for my squad. I thought I could handle Mace/GOWK by taking out mace right away which I had some incredable range to where I probably could have gotten to him unless you kept him in your starting area but as matchups would have it, I never faced Mace/GOWK. Instead I face my other bad matchup of HK and his IG's. I made it close but couldn't handle it.

Saba sounds interesting but I'm not sold on her yet, of course part of the reasoning could be that this Saba is a version that I don't like due to my image of her in books. So maybe I'm biased but oh well.
I also can't wait for "the Hobbit" (nice fit in of Lotr lines when talking star wars, bye the way)
For our (My sisters and I) annual Christmas eve movie, we already picked that movie since the trailer first came out.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:31 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I hate SSM with a passion...


This is where your entire argument loses all credibility, IMO. It's not about what is fair or isn't fair, it's about your bias toward an ability the way the original designer of the game created it. He wasn't even around by the time it was errata'd. I've often wondered how he would have handled it if he had been.

You also raise a concern about a player "rolling hot." That's just life. I remember playing Dean at his venue right after Rieekan came out. He made every Evade save, and it cost me the game. One more round, or one change in decision to base a key piece and I would have won. But I weighed the odds and figured he had made so many saves already, he should be at a point by the law of averages that he would fail one. But he never did. No one can compete with luck; it's just how it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:43 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
No one can compete with luck; it's just how it goes.


Well, I think you just summed up Timmer's argument for him. The problem is that GOWK can even out the playing field for a crappy player to beat a good player, not by skill or tactics, by pure luck, and that is bad for the game. I also argued against the change back on SSM. Talk all you want about direct damage squads and so on, yet to see one that would do good against enough of a variety of squads to ever be played competitively.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:20 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
This is where your entire argument loses all credibility, IMO. It's not about what is fair or isn't fair, it's about your bias toward an ability the way the original designer of the game created it. He wasn't even around by the time it was errata'd. I've often wondered how he would have handled it if he had been.



you can't throw out his points just because he expresses an opinion on the subject. Everyone has bias. In fact you have to admit your own bias to yourself before you can think objectively about a certain situation so you can check you ideas off others to remain neutral.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:01 pm 
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DeathsBaine wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
No one can compete with luck; it's just how it goes.


Well, I think you just summed up Timmer's argument for him. The problem is that GOWK can even out the playing field for a crappy player to beat a good player, not by skill or tactics, by pure luck, and that is bad for the game. I also argued against the change back on SSM. Talk all you want about direct damage squads and so on, yet to see one that would do good against enough of a variety of squads to ever be played competitively.


Again, it goes back to the fact that a lot of the better pieces with this option aren't even really being played (ie Galen Marek - which btw I had nothing to do with designing, just playtest feedback and I still think it is the best piece the design team has ever made).

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:03 pm 
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
This is where your entire argument loses all credibility, IMO. It's not about what is fair or isn't fair, it's about your bias toward an ability the way the original designer of the game created it. He wasn't even around by the time it was errata'd. I've often wondered how he would have handled it if he had been.



you can't throw out his points just because he expresses an opinion on the subject. Everyone has bias. In fact you have to admit your own bias to yourself before you can think objectively about a certain situation so you can check you ideas off others to remain neutral.


I can agree with this statement, but I'm not convinced that's what has occurred here. This feels more like an "I hate SSM and it won GC so obviously I am right to feel that way; Now who's with me" thread.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:08 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
DeathsBaine wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
No one can compete with luck; it's just how it goes.


Well, I think you just summed up Timmer's argument for him. The problem is that GOWK can even out the playing field for a crappy player to beat a good player, not by skill or tactics, by pure luck, and that is bad for the game. I also argued against the change back on SSM. Talk all you want about direct damage squads and so on, yet to see one that would do good against enough of a variety of squads to ever be played competitively.


Again, it goes back to the fact that a lot of the better pieces with this option aren't even really being played (ie Galen Marek - which btw I had nothing to do with designing, just playtest feedback and I still think it is the best piece the design team has ever made).


Was their consideration of Galen getting more Force Points? He has some good force abilities available, but I think Master Thon, despite his limitations of being a Large based piece, is a stronger option for Force Repulse 4 just because he has Force Renewal 2.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:27 pm 
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I am sure that is not what this is Dennis. Even though I disagree with Tim's assessment, I do respect his opinion and if over the course of the next "while" in the tournament scene if the evidence supports an additional change to SSM then I will support it just as much.

At this point, IMO, there is no evidence to support that. TheHutts would probably have better info than I would, but the regional season and gencon together did little to show me that Mace/Gowk is overpowered. I personally tried to break Mace in PA (as well as 2 others) and I did make T4 but both other players who brought it (both HOFers) did poorly. I was playing it with Skyguy and in the head to head against Hinkbert I beat him (and neither of us rolled any crits) in the semi-finals. I then lost to Weir commandos in the finals. Really the only Mace/Gowk to do well was the one piloted by Josh throughout the regional season. I would attribute that much more to skill than I would being luck-based. This is akin to saying that something like Yobuck should be "fixed" because Bill keeps winning with it. I certainly haven't seen any lesser players play a GOWK/Mace squad and make T4 of a regional or T8 of Gencon.

GOWK/Mace is a squad that is really, really good against a squad that has 1 or 2 big hitters and not much else. It seems to struggle against squads with tons of shots (naboo, storm commandos, etc). Right now the meta is such that everyone is playing big hitters that hit alot for lots of damage but not a lot of attacks, so this meta was ripe for a tank squad to clean it up. Especially one with a great back-up shooter and piloted by one of the best ever to play minis (4 T8 in 5 yrs is pretty good).

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:34 pm 
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TheHutts wrote:
Was their consideration of Galen getting more Force Points? He has some good force abilities available, but I think Master Thon, despite his limitations of being a Large based piece, is a stronger option for Force Repulse 4 just because he has Force Renewal 2.


There were a fair few iterations of Galen. He got the force he got because he has access to force batteries in both the rebels and imperials. His force powers also got changed a lot.

Galen is not really played for his repulse. Its decent activation control should he need it but with double twin and pull he's more about moving pieces out of position and beating people up behind walls. Unless he's running with Reiken his range defense is poor so jumping into the midst of opponents to repulse isn't worthwhile unless you have an exit strategy.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:58 pm 
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urbanjedi wrote:
At this point, IMO, there is no evidence to support that. TheHutts would probably have better info than I would, but the regional season and gencon together did little to show me that Mace/Gowk is overpowered. I personally tried to break Mace in PA (as well as 2 others) and I did make T4 but both other players who brought it (both HOFers) did poorly. I was playing it with Skyguy and in the head to head against Hinkbert I beat him (and neither of us rolled any crits) in the semi-finals. I then lost to Weir commandos in the finals. Really the only Mace/Gowk to do well was the one piloted by Josh throughout the regional season. I would attribute that much more to skill than I would being luck-based. This is akin to saying that something like Yobuck should be "fixed" because Bill keeps winning with it. I certainly haven't seen any lesser players play a GOWK/Mace squad and make T4 of a regional or T8 of Gencon.


According to my records, apart from Hinkbert's four Regional top 4 finishes (including three wins) and TINT's Vassal Regional win, you finishing in the top 4 in PA/MD was the only other time Mace made the top 4 at a Regional. Yours was the only one without GOWK. It's all here: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default. ... ts&t=10891. I'm also pretty sure that Mace-based squads were the most popular squad type this Regional season - he had a pretty low percentage of making the top 4 from what I've seen, although some Regionals I only have some data.

It is maybe noteworthy that of the 5 times Mace/GOWK made the Top Four in a Regional, they went on to win 4 of them, while once Mace/GOWK made the top 8 at GenCon, one also went on to win. So they struggled to make the top 4, but once they got their they often did really well.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:16 am 
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One thing I think may be getting lost in all this is that I am not saying GOWK is unbeatable. Or even broken.

I know how to beat him. I will reiterate that I have never lost to him in competitive play. Mace either for that matter.

SSM just makes the game less fun.

I remember Jake and I playtesting with Mace and GOWK to practice against our squads. It sickened us on both sides. The games were not fun. At all. We hated playing that squad, we hated playing against it. I guess people have different opinions on what is fun, but it's certainly not for us. Virtually every game came down to the luck of the rolls. This isn't to say they were close games. Frequently they were not. That's one of the issues, is that one or two lucky rolls can turn a giant swing. Republic usually got stomped, unless Mace rolled crits and/or Obi rolled 11+ on his first roll of SSM most of the time. We'd rather flip a pack of quarters and see who flips more heads, then play a game that is fun.

Jake and I both swore never to play those 2 characters.

There was a precedence for SSM being changed. And it was actually brought up to me by the powers who rule the floor rules that it is conceivable that it could change back. This is why I started the thread, to promote conversation about it.

What I fear now that GOWK/Mace has won the championship, is that everyone will hop on the bandwagon and it will be an annoying shitstorm to face.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:02 am 
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That's interesting, because I thoroughly enjoyed playing GOWK/Mace. The reason I ended up using them was because, if I was going to lose, then I wanted to lose playing what I enjoyed! Lol.

I'm with Jason on this one too: if it becomes clear that SSM needs nerfing then I'd be fine with that. I just don't want to see the change made because of knee jerk reactions or by unilateral decisions.

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