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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:09 pm 
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Just confirmed with old floor rules, and yeah, the July 2009 floor rules was when GOWK was banned, January 2010 he was un-banned but SSM was changed.

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:10 pm 
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Echo wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
He was actually banned briefly after Regionals before they could get the DCI errata.


I don't think I even knew that. So after the last regional and before GenCon he was banned. Was there any significant tournament where he was banned from during that time? If not, then it doesn't count for much


I'm pretty sure he was actually banned for GenCon that year, actually.... Floor rules have always been updated in the summer and the winter, and it was the summer updated (just before GenCon) that he was banned. I think it was the following winter when he was un-banned and SSM was just neutered.


Really wish he wasn't. We would have seen GOWK everywhere and I would have beat them all. :lol:

Still to this day I have never lost a match to GOWK in a tournament


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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:12 pm 
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He was banned toward the end of June '09 when Regionals were pretty much done with, and I think the DCI errata came out sometime the next year.

EDIT: Actually mid July 09.

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:58 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
@Audri...

Lobot is useful, but he's not dominant. I think that's the distinction we need to make here.

That is, we don't have a situation of "Lobot pwns all these different squads and IS the meta." That's how things originally were with GOWK before we adjusted SSM. In "the GOWK meta" you either played GOWK or you lost, period. GOWK was not only useful, but even dominant.

Lobot is just plain useful. He's tech, and as Daniel said about the Naboo, not all squads benefit from including him. I actually think my Mace/GOWK squad benefitted more by including RC Fi (at FrostyCon) than Lobot (at Gencon), but with the diversity of squads present at Gencon, I had to drop the squad's power to include Lobot's tech. Fi was more powerful, but Lobot was more useful.


I agree with Trevor here. Lobot in many ways "weakens" a squad but he also makes a squad far more viable and flexible in many different situations. And many different situations pretty much sums up the meta right now, and hopefully for the foreseeable future. If I need Lobot in my GOWK/Mace to make it competitive because of all the variable enemy squad types I could face then I'll gladly use him as a toll that I have to pay to help keep the game fresh. I'd rather have a wide open meta where a squad that starts with single digit activations can still compete against a squad with 25 activations and everything in between.

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:23 pm 
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Saying Lobot "weakens" a squad but helps a squad win seems inherently flawed to me.

If Lobot (or any character) helps a squad win more games in more circumstances, then it makes the squad stronger, not weaker.

Pure damage output does no rule this game. It is and always will be finding a right balance between power and tech that wins games and tournaments.

You can have a squad that pumps out 500dam a round standing still, having no override or satchel charge, and very commander effect heavy. Tons of damage output, but you won't win any games except against the greenest rookie opponents.

Adversely you can have override x4, master tactician, super-stealth, accurate shot, etc, etc - but if you don't have enough power to finish anything off you're not gonna win many tournaments.

I consider it great skill to not only know how much tech to put into a squad, but then to use the balance effectively in game as well.

Lobot IS included in squads he probably shouldn't be in (or at least doesn't need to be in). He takes great skill to use him effectively in my opinion. He dies very easily, and he's 27 pts and important in game tech. Aside from that, what reserves to bring and when is a huge part of the skill of Lobot. If you have "set" reserves (ie you bring the same reserves EVERY time), you are using Lobot wrong. If you have a squad that is solid on it's own, but 20 extra points of specific fringe reinforcements can give you the edge against other specific squads - THAT is when to use him. And these days, that need is much more frequent.

I used Lobot all the time before the R7, because in my opinion override is necessary and unless you played rebel or republic back in the day you were screwed without Lobot. Now any faction can have override for cheap, but Lobot's greatest advantage is still his reinforcements.

So banning tech pieces like Lobot would take a huge portion of skill out of the game. It would devolve into a bunch of Neanderthals running to the middle of the board and smashing each other. Rolling a bunch of dice and seeing who rolls higher more often. Maybe that's fun for some people, but not me. I enjoy the skill aspect. I enjoy running a team with less total power output, but using my tech to outsmart my opponent and win through brain, not luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:51 pm 
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The definition of "weak" can go back and forth all day. To make a big deal of semantics, I think I made my squad stronger by including Lobot, even though it was less powerful. :)

Other than that, +1, Tim.

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:36 am 
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fingersandteeth wrote:
The only reason that Lobot is always in the best squads is because he's the only fringe reinforcement piece that is worth using (which is a bit bizarre really).

Its not really Lobot, but the reinforcement concept.

Best path forward is to open fringe reinforcements to more characters down the road (e.g. reinforcements 10 etc).

This game is so deep these days that the flexibility is almost vital for many squads at the top because it restricts their shortcomings and gives them a chance in bad matchups.


+1

Other commentary in this string have hit on the point that our Cyborg friend is "tool" and that IMO is the main point/value of the piece. However in matchplay he is also a 27 point liability; as Deri pointed out earlier, an equitable trade needs to figured in for his potential demise.

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:07 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
So banning tech pieces like Lobot would take a huge portion of skill out of the game. It would devolve into a bunch of Neanderthals running to the middle of the board and smashing each other. Rolling a bunch of dice and seeing who rolls higher more often. Maybe that's fun for some people, but not me. I enjoy the skill aspect. I enjoy running a team with less total power output, but using my tech to outsmart my opponent and win through brain, not luck.


Sorry I fail to see how 20pts of countering my squad directly at the beginning of the game is really showing tech or skill. Skill is working your way out of a bad matchup or a losing situation. Not putting body guard in to absorb a crit that will make sure your melee character can out live Windu for example.

Skill in squad building is anticipating the match-ups you will see and putting small defenses against those squads in your main squad without affecting its efficiency.

If seeing what your opponents playing and then countering it is skill then Jaster Mareel is probably the best piece ever made in the game since he gets Mando CIO to hose the most commonly used tactic in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:05 am 
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The main difference between Lobot and Jaster or Garm, is the pieces available. Yes, Jaster has the ability to counter some stuff, but not nearly to the extent Lobot can. However, a large part of it is knowing what to bring vs what, and that includes bringing your choices ahead of time. Imo, knowing how to use your sideboard (using a Magic concept) is a skill.

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
The main difference between Lobot and Jaster or Garm, is the pieces available. Yes, Jaster has the ability to counter some stuff, but not nearly to the extent Lobot can. However, a large part of it is knowing what to bring vs what, and that includes bringing your choices ahead of time. Imo, knowing how to use your sideboard (using a Magic concept) is a skill.


I'm sorry when I made the comment about Jaster, I was being a bit silly. Lobot is certainly better. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:36 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
Sorry I fail to see how 20pts of countering my squad directly at the beginning of the game is really showing tech or skill. Skill is working your way out of a bad matchup or a losing situation. Not putting body guard in to absorb a crit that will make sure your melee character can out live Windu for example.

Skill in squad building is anticipating the match-ups you will see and putting small defenses against those squads in your main squad without affecting its efficiency.


IMO, a part of skill in squad building is scaling down your attackers enough so that you can fit Lobot in if you need him - it's something I hardly ever do, and should do more often. I often play Republic, and I find it hard to fit Lobot in on top of R2-D2 and Mas Amedda, but the Republic squads that have done the best at the highest level sacrifice some attacking power to fit him in. I'm thinking specifically of the Republic GenCon finalists over the last couple of years; Skybuck and TINT's GOWK/Windu squad (although the latter doesn't have need Mas since GOWK's CE works differently). I think giving yourself the ability to bring in a bodyguard against Windu is a great idea, not a crutch.

Lobot has been around for a long time, so I can't see him getting banned or anything. I get the impression that he's used by skilled players, who understand his subtle power, far more than by beginners. I keep an eye on new squads in Bloomilk's squad builder, and Lobot Computer Liasion Officer is the Lobot of choice for casual players.


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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:01 pm 
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TheHutts wrote:

. I think giving yourself the ability to bring in a bodyguard against Windu is a great idea, not a crutch.



Not just a great, but basically a necessity.

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:34 pm 
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hinkbert wrote:
TheHutts wrote:

. I think giving yourself the ability to bring in a bodyguard against Windu is a great idea, not a crutch.



Not just a great, but basically a necessity.


That right there just said everything about why I have an issue with him. In a game as balanced as ours is the ability to partially erase a bad matchup at the beginning of a match is seriously overpowered. Earlier in the thread someone compared Lobot to using a sideboard in Magic. At least when I finally get to that sideboad odds are Im down a game in a best of three series. In a best of one scenario that ability to reverse a bad matchup is just way to strong with a 27pt piece. Oops wait 7pts after you get your free 20pts.

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:57 pm 
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All this comes down to is if you don't like it, don't use it. Lobot and other strong pieces like him are going to be used because they are good. If you and your group don't like something then in your own group decide to not use it. The Atlanta group has pretty much decided that Black Ops Training is just mean and unfun, so we don't use it. I wouldn't say to someone else that they shouldn't use it just because I dislike it.

Lobot is good, if you dont like him no one is making you play him.

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Lobot was a key piece of my 2007 Landspeeder squad, this was back at 150 points, before mouse droids and Gha Nachkt. But it was great back then to just keep your opponent from getting points from killing your Ugnaughts, who were busy busting doors and earning gambit points.

Reinforcements figures, and figures under 5 points, can no longer earn gambit points, right? Those changes took Lobot down a few pegs but maybe have not been enough. Want to bust his chops again, why not start awarding full points for killing reinforcements but continue to award the full 27 points for killing Lobot? That would dramatically increase the risk of playing Lobot, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Do you think Mouse clutter would be more of a problem at this stage without Lobot?

You could mainline 6 or 10 or however many Mouse Droids into your squad, safe in the knowledge that Lancer and Yobuck are less prevalent than they used to be, and that people are unlikely to mainline Momaw Nadon into their squad.


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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:35 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
All this comes down to is if you don't like it, don't use it. Lobot and other strong pieces like him are going to be used because they are good. If you and your group don't like something then in your own group decide to not use it. The Atlanta group has pretty much decided that Black Ops Training is just mean and unfun, so we don't use it. I wouldn't say to someone else that they shouldn't use it just because I dislike it.

Lobot is good, if you dont like him no one is making you play him.


Its not that simple. When the Atlanta crew play HannahCannon or myself at next years regionals there is a good shot they will have to deal with BlackOps. Just like the same thing as when I travel to an event where Tim will be playing at, Im sure to see Lobot.

I have no dilusions here, I dont expect Lobot to be magically banned. He is entrenched in the tourney scene and has been for years. All I'm trying to do is bring up a few points that I see getting to be more of a problem as more Vsets and more figures that can be lobotted come out.

Just telling me "well don't play it" is a pretty ignorant response to a concerned player. That to me sounds like your saying dont bother coming to any regionals where you would see it or even GenCon. I seriously doubt that is something you want to be saying to any player in the game at this point.

There isn't much more for me to say on the issue. I guess I'll sit back and see what is up after Vset 4 gets played and Vset 5 comes...

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:25 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
Weeks wrote:
All this comes down to is if you don't like it, don't use it. Lobot and other strong pieces like him are going to be used because they are good. If you and your group don't like something then in your own group decide to not use it. The Atlanta group has pretty much decided that Black Ops Training is just mean and unfun, so we don't use it. I wouldn't say to someone else that they shouldn't use it just because I dislike it.

Lobot is good, if you dont like him no one is making you play him.


Its not that simple. When the Atlanta crew play HannahCannon or myself at next years regionals there is a good shot they will have to deal with BlackOps. Just like the same thing as when I travel to an event where Tim will be playing at, Im sure to see Lobot.

I have no dilusions here, I dont expect Lobot to be magically banned. He is entrenched in the tourney scene and has been for years. All I'm trying to do is bring up a few points that I see getting to be more of a problem as more Vsets and more figures that can be lobotted come out.

Just telling me "well don't play it" is a pretty ignorant response to a concerned player. That to me sounds like your saying dont bother coming to any regionals where you would see it or even GenCon. I seriously doubt that is something you want to be saying to any player in the game at this point.

There isn't much more for me to say on the issue. I guess I'll sit back and see what is up after Vset 4 gets played and Vset 5 comes...


I don't remember typing "don't come to any regionals or gencon" so that's not what I meant.

My point was if you dislike something then at a local level you should get together and say "hey lets not use X for a while". On a global level every piece in the game is availible. My point was more geared towards all the threads that always come out after gencon saying whatever won is Broken/Unbeatable (happens every year like clockwork).

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
Weeks wrote:
All this comes down to is if you don't like it, don't use it. Lobot and other strong pieces like him are going to be used because they are good. If you and your group don't like something then in your own group decide to not use it. The Atlanta group has pretty much decided that Black Ops Training is just mean and unfun, so we don't use it. I wouldn't say to someone else that they shouldn't use it just because I dislike it.

Lobot is good, if you dont like him no one is making you play him.


Its not that simple. When the Atlanta crew play HannahCannon or myself at next years regionals there is a good shot they will have to deal with BlackOps. Just like the same thing as when I travel to an event where Tim will be playing at, Im sure to see Lobot.

I have no dilusions here, I dont expect Lobot to be magically banned. He is entrenched in the tourney scene and has been for years. All I'm trying to do is bring up a few points that I see getting to be more of a problem as more Vsets and more figures that can be lobotted come out.

Just telling me "well don't play it" is a pretty ignorant response to a concerned player. That to me sounds like your saying dont bother coming to any regionals where you would see it or even GenCon. I seriously doubt that is something you want to be saying to any player in the game at this point.

There isn't much more for me to say on the issue. I guess I'll sit back and see what is up after Vset 4 gets played and Vset 5 comes...


I don't remember typing "don't come to any regionals or gencon" so that's not what I meant.

My point was if you dislike something then at a local level you should get together and say "hey lets not use X for a while". On a global level every piece in the game is availible. My point was more geared towards all the threads that always come out after gencon saying whatever won is Broken/Unbeatable (happens every year like clockwork).


Oh ok, My misunderstanding :) I apologize then :)

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 Post subject: Re: Lobot - most winning figure ever
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Lobot is good for the game.

He's not a piece that restricts what people play but more gives you the potential to turn a 100% loss into something manageable. Also, anyone can have this ability.

Lobot increases the number of figures seen in play tremendously and many of the characters you can choose from are iconic in starwars lore. Yes the 10 mice droid dump is annoying but its not a common tactic. I didn't use it once in the champs and didn't have it played against me IIRC.

While the 20 points he brings is usually right for the job they arn't really game breaking pieces either. Wicket, Garindan, BGDs, Dr E, uggies, TBSV, Salacious, grans etc don't really win games on their own. The 27 point investment needs to be built into the squad and that takes a bit of thought. How lobot helps your squad best is also subject to scrutiny and testing and its never a sure thing. You can lose the points of that entire investment in one shot, it happens often.

Lobot is a clever piece that requires skill to build in and knowledge of the lesser fringe to use correctly. It increases the number of playable figs and is not a MUST play piece.

He's T1, he's fringe so he's popular, but he shouldn't go anywhere.

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