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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Well to be honest, that was on a tile wars game. (no where to hide or position so that mace can't get into that position. But as it is he has 10 left and I shouldn't have missed all those shots and all those crits that he rolls shouldn't have killed all my guys but for flurry every time.

But your right, never mind the ridiculous stats on mace, and that he wins games by killing a full hp beat stick on a riposte and then absorbs the defense on a 65 pnt piece.

You talk about a powercreep coming up in this game. Mace has unlimited damage potential cause he could never stop atacking with this luck that we're talking about. At least people like Atton (who is still sick) has a limit. If atton rolls 2 crits while using sith rage and cunning. Much less likely than with mace, but at least it's a limit. With mace there is no limit, he can keep going as long as there are enemy's. I've seen time and time again of where mace is out matched so the mace player is left with one choice; to charge in and hope for the best. Result is crit after crit

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:58 pm 
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I think removing Flurry would solve that matter entirely. He could still do some crazy damage on his turn, but he would not have the infinite-damage capability that he has now.

In fact, I remember strongly urging the removal of Flurry during Playtesting, actually.

The thing is, there are other ways around Mace. More Force Alter would do it. More Parry pieces (yes, it's only 50%) would help too. And Josh and I have come up with a squad that will eat him for supper every time (assuming he doesn't roll unlimited crits back-to-back).

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:17 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
The thing is, there are other ways around Mace. More Force Alter would do it. More Parry pieces (yes, it's only 50%) would help too. And Josh and I have come up with a squad that will eat him for supper every time (assuming he doesn't roll unlimited crits back-to-back).


So have I. It's amazing how much Mace slows down when faced with a Droid with Advanced Shields 2, even with Momentum. And there are some great options out there. Saesee gets new life with Quiggy, Force Spirit. HK-47 with Shields 1 slows him down tremendously. Two IG88s with Shields 1 as well. Short of spreading out Resilient/Armored Space Suit out to every beatstick, it will be a bit of a an issue. The counters are there.

And besides, this has strayed from GOWK to Mace, another arguement I'm a bit tired of.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:28 pm 
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As am i. This was just more on topic of luck taking over the game.
I'm all for defensive abilities like parry and evade and teras kasi and similar things. The main issue I think here is SSM is all atacks. While parry is all melee and evade is non adjacent. I like abilities that neuter some atacks (like parry and evade) but not all. And all on a roll of 11, or 7, or 3.
And for the record, I'm a fan of force bubble, and am having ideas of a similar ability that may be able to help with the powercreep. But more on that later. Or you can just pm me.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:15 pm 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
And there always will be a place for luck and the people who want to run luck based squads. But if the goal is to become a better player then they are not improving their play by using nothing but luck based squads. It's not even about using a luck piece or 2, it's that we see hints that this game is headed in a direction of much more luck based, and you talk about there being a place for players of all levels, then what happans to the skill players when more and more luck based squads are coming out and more and more are playing them kinds of squads. With that happening, then the luck causing a less experienced player to win will happen more often. And when that happens, it didnt make him a better player.



Granted. Or, at least, granted that a fully "luck-based" win has less potential to teach a player than a win achieved through other means. I was responding to a tone I thought was starting to develop: namely, that less-skilled players never have any business winning against more-skilled players, but should just resign themselves to losing and try to learn from the experience. Of course, you should always try to learn from any game, win or lose, and many of the best players have said the same. But most people aren't going to keep playing a game that they not only can't ever win, but can't ever seem to even get close to winning. It's very discouraging to get stomped every time you sit down, and most people don't have substantial amounts of time to devote to getting better outside of competitive play. These "luck-based" pieces at least provide the opportunity to stay in the game a little longer; arguably, that suggests playing them would actually afford a better chance to learn, since the squad survives to see more game situations.

I also disagree strongly (and I think TinT will back me up on this) that Mace/GOWK are purely luck-based pieces (i.e., requiring minimal skill or thought to run). These pieces do have weaknesses, lots of them. Very VERY few squad types make for a reasonably sure win, particularly if they're well run. So the Republic player has to make a large number of strategic calculations, which vary from match to match, and often from turn to turn. It may ultimately boil down to "just run in and start swinging," but there is still generally a lot of consideration that goes into the timing of that decision. Not only that, but the odds of that gamble paying off exactly how you hope aren't exactly in your favor. The type of thing described above obviously can happen, but would be incredibly rare.

To actually get onto the topic of GOWK, I don't have much experience playing with or against the piece, with or without the errata. However, I see no reason why the same strategies that worked against him before (direct damage, large quantity of attacks, etc.) would not still work. Heck, get Exar Kun, DFS up near him with Dark Aura, and all of a sudden the mettle is essentially negated. Find ways to steal his force points, or force him to use them. Push him into a force bubble so he can't use them. Play Vong. Obviously some of these ideas are more feasible than others, but the point is, there are lots of ways to minimize the impact of SSM on any given match. I can understand not wanting to have to build a squad specifically to address the presence of one piece, but that situation has been common in the history of the game. Eventually, the meta always shifts away from X or anti-X to something more moderate.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:37 pm 
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This may seem inelegant, but if GOWK or Mace or the Naboo anyone else is a problem, I would favor the SWCCG response: a direct named counter that Lobot could bring in. Not a ban, not an errata, just a total nerf on the competitive level. Or if it's SSM, a direct named counter to that ability that can be brought in via Lobot.

I would especially vote against GOWK getting yet another errata. Right now it's what the card says, which is great. The original glossary said only melee... the first errata said go with the card over the glossary (all attacks)... then it was only non-melee (directly contradicting the original glossary)... now it's back to all attacks.

Nerfing is easy, clean, and doesn't cause any confusion. The only problem is that it's an inelegant blunt force solution. (Another possible problem is that it takes up a slot in a Vset that designers would probably rather use on something more fun.) See, it's easy:

On a Fringe Force User with cost 14:
Makashi Style Training: Enemy characters [or even just GOWK if you prefer] get -4 on Soresu Style saves and may not reroll saves made with Soresu Style, including Soresu Style Mastery (Note: This is a boardwide effect.)

OR Makashi Style Training: Enemy characters [or even just GOWK if you prefer] get -4 on Soresu Style Mastery saves and may not use Soresu Style Mastery versus Melee Attacks(Note: This is a boardwide effect.)

On a Fringe character with cost 11:
Critical Armor: Unique allies gain Resilient (Note: This is a boardwide effect.)

On a Fringe character with cost 11:
Naboo Spy: Enemy characters whose name contains Naboo may not be affected by Commander Effects (Again, a boardwide effect)

I don't know that I'd vote for any of the above. The meta seems pretty good right now. GOWK/Mace is strong (tier 1, but that's another discussion). However, I don't think it calls for a ban or errata. If it ever got to that point, as mentioned above, I'd vote for nerfing it with a "silver bullet counter" instead of a ban or errata.


Last edited by FlyingArrow on Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:56 pm 
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UrbanShmi wrote:
I also disagree strongly (and I think TinT will back me up on this) that Mace/GOWK are purely luck-based pieces (i.e., requiring minimal skill or thought to run). These pieces do have weaknesses, lots of them. Very VERY few squad types make for a reasonably sure win, particularly if they're well run. So the Republic player has to make a large number of strategic calculations, which vary from match to match, and often from turn to turn. It may ultimately boil down to "just run in and start swinging," but there is still generally a lot of consideration that goes into the timing of that decision. Not only that, but the odds of that gamble paying off exactly how you hope aren't exactly in your favor. The type of thing described above obviously can happen, but would be incredibly rare.

Not only do I back you up on this, but you also get a cookiee! :)

Seriously though, the GOWK/Mace combo is not a "luck-based" squad at all. It's actually a very difficult squad to play, because you're almost always outactivated, and there are a number of matchups which are exceedingly difficult for it.

I wonder if part of the outcry against Mace/GOWK has to do with the fact that we haven't seen a tank (ie, rock) squad do well in...years. Tanks win by shrugging off damage, and by using their cannon to dish it back. Don't be surprised if the dominant squad-type for the past several years (scissors) no longer has its place of dominance, now that a rock squad is finally viable. Rock beats scissors...but paper squads (ie, Gerry's Naboo Soviets) can cause real problems for the rock/tank. (And good droid squads can be a pain too.)

Therefore maybe, instead of nerfing SSM again, we need to look at how the meta needs to adjust to account for rocks again (or maybe for the first time?).



One more thing: I can't (re-)emphasize strongly enough how important timing is to strategy, even with tanks like Mace/GOWK. A poorly timed or poorly chosen move has cost me the game more than once with this squad. I know from experience that if Mace doesn't roll a crit against Atton/Cad/Carth, he's usually as good as dead...and so you have to carefully plan your moves in such a way that you don't need the crit in order to survive. It's like playing Boba BH back in the day: if you were playing for the Disintegration, you were doing it wrong. Mace Critdu, if played carefully, doesn't need the crit in order to win. But if he's not played carefully, even a crit is often not enough to save him.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:35 pm 
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I personally think it should stay as it is now (all attacks). The reason I feel this way is because it says MASTERY! I agree it can be frustrating to play against. However GOWK isn't the only piece with this ability but seems to get most of the attention in this debate. I don't hear nearly as many complaints about this in relation to say Zannah or Flobi. I also like the fact that it adds an element of luck due to the fact that it can allow a slightly less capable player to actually win a game against a more veteran player once in a while. I beleive that this is important going forward to help grow the game because it gives a newer player a chance to occasionally win a game and have fun doing so against the veterans at his/her local shop.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:08 pm 
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I realize I wasn't really around for all the high activation squad shenanigans in the past, but I'm still super glad that low activation squads can compete now. I agree with everything TinT said and I'll add this too. When you have so few activations you really need to make them count, which factors into the whole time your strikes thing, and when you can't just spin some mice to buy some thinking time it can become nerve-wracking very fast.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:19 pm 
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Isn't almost the entire game based around luck? I mean we are rolling a dice to see if something happens. You know going into that 5% of the time you are going to miss.

Granted we all know that there are things you can do to improve your odds, but every time you roll the dice you are going with luck, or something that you have no control over.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:38 am 
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Les and I discussed this on the show Thursday, so I won't rehash everything I said, but just offer a shorter synopsis. I support leaving SSM just as it is, because I feel it would create an imbalance on the types of successful squads. I am not a 'tank squad' player; I prefer high activation squads. In fact, I am a fan of many of Tim's creations along this line. So...if I have any bias, it would be AGAINST tank squads since I generally don't play them.

Laura touched on something I also said Thursday night on the show, that forgiving pieces like GOWK, Mace, or even Boba BH before them are important in our game for players who maybe are not good enough to compete successfully in the tournament scene but now have a chance with these pieces. Of course, getting to the top with GOWK demands more than luck, as we've seen, and I remain confident that winning our championship still requires a great player, among other factors.

Regarding the power creep that is evident in our game, that was not started by our vset design teams, but rather by WotC. In order to bring parity to the factions (which they have for the most part) our vset designers have, by necessity, had to continue down the power creep road. The other choice was to errata all of the previous power creep out. I don't think it has gotten out of hand. In fact, I applaud their efforts to reintroduce older pieces gathering dust on our shelves.

I think the current meta climate is just fine, and I look forward to our designers fine tuning things as they go.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:42 am 
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I will add, however, that high activation strategies require just as much skill as tank squad strategies at the highest levels of competition. It's not merely 'spinning mice' that leads to victory anymore than dumb luck lands a tank squad on top.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:58 am 
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Well said on both posts, Jim.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:31 pm 
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I just have a couple more things that I want to say before I lay this topic to rest.
1) I understand it takes skill to win the championship, Trevor is a very good player and fought his way to the championship. Trevor is also just a great guy who has helped in all aspects of this game. Including helping me get The Royal Rumble ready for Gen Con.

2) I was in no way saying Mace/GOWK are nothing but luck pieces, as most pieces require at least some skill to run to where it is most effective. With that said, I have heard from numerous people on this thread that it often comes down to running in and rolling the dice, which tells me it is more luck based than many other pieces that we have.

3) I don't like this Mace, I think he is undercosted for all the stats that he has and the unlimited damage potential. As Trevor pointed out earlier, that removing flurry would solve a great deal and it speaks volumes as to how much he understands this ridiculous, and unlimited damage potential as he was one to fight against flurry during playtesting. I am confident with him as a designer and can trust he won't let anything like that happen again.

4) I understand there are counters to GOWK, such as overwhelming power, vong, direct damage, stealing force.
Overwhelming power, at least through V-3 just doesn't have what it takes to compete at tier 1 level (I should know cause I've tried all year to make it work). With various degrees of success but nothing I feel was capable of winning the championship or even making the top 8, which is why I went with a different idea in the championship. Vong don't have what it takes right now, and I don't believe that V-4 has done anything to change that. Stealing force, well let's just face it, we have very limited options in that right now. Direct damage. Probably the safest and most direct way to deal with GOWK, but the problem that I have with this method is I don't like being forced to have to play direct damage. I would think its safe to say that most squads have both melee and non melee in them now. You face an evade squad, you have a way to deal with it by either melee or basing them with your gun. You face parry and you have a way of dealing with them by shooting them. These counters are built in to the ability and I think that is what makes them succesfull. SSM, no built in counter, you either have direct damage or you hope that your opponent has bad rolls cause if he doesn't, it's going to be a long boring game as you try and kill everything else and still try and get 55 pnts of gambit so that you can still get a 3 pnt win. Hard to do in an hour if you don't have direct damage and your opponent is hot with his saves (although hot with GOWK saves is easier when you need saves of 7 or even 3 to avoid damage). That's the problem I have with GOWK. I like the built in counters that parry and evade have cause they don't force someone to have to build with direct damage (which IMO limits some of the types of squads that you can build and puts a restriction on some creativity). I won't play Mace/GOWK or Mace or GOWK, I don't like the style. IMO I just feel as if I have less options when the only viable counter to SSM is direct damage.

Well that is about the only thing I have left to say as I feel this topic has run its course. I was not trying to just go off on some rant and sound like I'm crying about Mace and GOWK, as I'm not. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion as I guess is evedent from this thread.

And one last thing that I must end this post on.

This one's for you Tim,

SORESU STYLE THIS, B****!!!

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:42 am 
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If you don't like the changes to SSM and/or the new Mace Windu and want to direct the blame toward someone, you can start with me. I am the one who proposed the idea of reinstating the original SSM card text. I am the one who created the base template for the Mace. Before you hit the reply button, please do me the courtesy of reading on as I explain my position on these two issues. :)

1. Let's start with SSM. With v-sets 2 and 3, a lot of changes were introduced to the game. Vong were already made stronger, and that was a trend that continued in those sets. We created a second Ysalimiri character in Destiny as well. With Vengeance and R&R, the game introduced a plethora of alternate-damage abilities that we felt confident would see play as people adapted their games to the new options. When we design cards, we try to consider what the current concepts will do to the game and how they will impact old options. As I proposed the idea, I and several others here playtested the concept to see if it was broken. We tested things against it that aren't currently being played, and I believe that is because the meta hasn't evolved the way we imagined it would. Few if any were playing Vong or Force Immunity or alternate-damage dealing options at GenCon from what I saw.

Let me state that again: I believe that is because the current meta hasn't evolved the way we imagined it would.

I don't really have a good answer to that. Over time, will the game and the players adapt to the luck-based combo? V-set 4 will have an additional impact on the game that players haven't had the chance to discover yet, either. There's at least one ability that actually screws with Mace in this set, and 2 pieces have it. He may not be able to attack every time if he can't make the save. What's more, there are a lot of pieces that haven't even really been played the way I thought they would be. Galen Marek is one of the best pieces ever made and I have yet to see it fielded. But when I playtested it, it was the Lord Vader replacement on a squad with Pellaeon and Jarael. I give up 5 points and a quad commander attack for an Imperial character that can swap in, run 6 squares and blow everything up that isn't Force Immune. In 3-5 rounds, the game is over almost every time. At least, that was my experience.

2. Mace Windu. His original template didn't include Reflect, and I argued hard against adding it after playtesters said they found him TOO luck based for his cost. We didn't want to lower the cost either, though, so eventually the playtesters won out and it got added. Was it too much? I don't know. But I wanted the Republic to have a solid melee figure that scared opponents and Mace provided that. I think there are some other similar new additions that will be on that level, but only time will tell if I am right.

The game has had a luck-based component from the outset, and I am not just talking about attack rolls. One of the classic stories that doesn't get talked about much is the 10-man Rebel Pilot team that took down SL Vader and RS Palpatine using Grenades. Vader could only hit one Pilot at a time, and Palpatine burned Force Points trying to roll higher than 11. I know there are other similar stories out there (the Gotal Fringer team is a popular classic).

In closing, I don't think we should change SSM back given those additions to the game, as mentioned above. I think they just need time to be tried, to be played, and then see where to go from there. We have a lot of other ways of dealing with it if those options just aren't as good as they seemed in playtesting.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:37 pm 
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I hear where you're coming from, Jake: it's frustrating when you feel like you need to play a certain element (ie, direct damage) in order to compete with SSM/Mace. I'm not sure if people who share your frustration are aware of it or not, but that's how it felt for me and several others during the high-activation-tempo-control meta: you either played tempo control or you had some mass-kill potential (Arica/Yobuck/Lancer) in your squad. Without having one of those 2 options, your squad could not compete at the top level. You had 3 options: tempo control, mass-kill potential, or lose. That was the meta. And as I said, I can hear where you're coming from, because at the time I wanted to see Dodonna/San/Ozzel banned. It's frustrating to not be able to play what you want (assuming it's a good squad) at the top level, because it doesn't fit into the current meta.

But I think that's the thing: as Dennis just said, the meta has shifted. Or, as Galadriel says in the prologue to LotR, The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it." [man, I can't wait for the Hobbit!] The meta hasn't shifted in the same ways that people thought it would, but it surely has shifted. It used to be that a squad had to be able to handle scissor squads if it was going to be able to compete; now a squad must be able to handle rock squads.

There were a number of things that allowed GOWK/Mace to do well in the Championship meta this year. First, there were LOTS of characters making high-damage attacks (Skybuck, Jaq, etc), but not a lot of direct damage. That's the perfect scenario for SSM to thrive. More specifically, consider the following:
--Vong were almost entirely absent. It's currently very difficult to build a beefy-and-competitive Vong squad. But Force Immunity on pieces that do 30/40dmg per hit is a strong counter to GOWK/Mace.
--There was (according to my memory) only one Pelleon squad (Matt Spry), and for some reason, he didn't do well in the first few rounds and didn't have an impact beyond that. If he would've made the Top 8, he would've been a strong contender to win it all. Pelleon/Weir cause some major headaches to GOWK/Mace if played well. Once Weir dies it's game over, but once Mace dies it's over too. The advantage goes to the Imps in that matchup for sure; in fact, that was one of the big reasons why Josh used the Shieldbearer in his GOWK/Mace squad.
--There were lots of OR squads, and GOWK/Mace has a strong advantage there. Sure, ABM removes GOWK's CE from play...but the OR shooters still have to hit a 26 in cover, which is not easy to do when you're shooting at +13s and the defenders have force points.
-There weren't very many Naboo Pilot squads. Gerry's troopers were powerful, but they weren't going to hit a lot when they needed 17s to hit (as long as my Rex was un-targetable and my tanks were in cover, I had little to fear from the troopers). The Pilots on the other hand, needed something like 7s, and that's extremely dangerous. Josh barely (and with unheard-of dice luck) won his match vs Daniel's Naboo squad. I can almost guarantee that wouldn't happen twice. And if it was against my squad, I'm about 80% sure I'd lose; I just got lucky in matchups. I almost didn't play Mace/GOWK because I was afraid there'd be more Naboo than there was.


If any of these things had been different in the championship, I'm quite sure that we wouldn't be talking about how Mace/GOWK need errata/banning...or at least not as much. So all it takes is for people to start playing more of these types of squads (and/or zaps/mines/magma-pebbles), and the dominance of SSM will be history. SSM will always be a factor, but it won't always dominate.

This is (or has been?) a good discussion, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:55 pm 
Master of the Order
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thereisnotry wrote:
--There was (according to my memory) only one Pelleon squad (Matt Spry), and for some reason, he didn't do well in the first few rounds and didn't have an impact beyond that. If he would've made the Top 8, he would've been a strong contender to win it all.


Ahem,

--Stealth N' Blue (and Pellaeon too!)--
54 Cad Bane
32 Thrawn (Mitth'raw'nuruodo)
31 Arica
27 Lobot
16 Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
12 Gha Nachkt
11 Grand Moff Tarkin
8 Mas Amedda
3 Rodian Brute
6 Mouse Droid x3

(200pts. 12 activations)

9th place after Swiss.


Be thankful I didn't slip into the top 8. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Trevor was certainly thinking of Weir squads. And he's right in that there was only 1, which was shocking. The fact is that the GenCon meta this year was ripe for GOWK/Mace to win. There were a few counters around (Graham's HK squad and my Naboo squad), but not many, and when they did meet up the Mace players were often either better or luckier than their opponent. If more counters had showed up (or just more Weir, which was expected by many people) I agree with Trevor that this conversation either wouldn't even be happening or have a much different tone. GOWK was played by one of the best players in the world and the meta was favorable for it, so he won. Calling that "domination" is pure disingenuity.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Just for the record I am much happier with the meta now than when every body had tempo control. I know Mace/GOWK are a pain in the butt but at least you get to attack them.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Echo wrote:
Trevor was certainly thinking of Weir squads. And he's right in that there was only 1, which was shocking. The fact is that the GenCon meta this year was ripe for GOWK/Mace to win. There were a few counters around (Graham's HK squad and my Naboo squad), but not many, and when they did meet up the Mace players were often either better or luckier than their opponent. If more counters had showed up (or just more Weir, which was expected by many people) I agree with Trevor that this conversation either wouldn't even be happening or have a much different tone. GOWK was played by one of the best players in the world and the meta was favorable for it, so he won. Calling that "domination" is pure disingenuity.


Weir isn't the only counter with Pellaeon. Arica and Cad Bane shooting from the bubble so Mace cannot reflect and GOWK cannot reroll is massive. I really think my squad can beat Mace/Gowk squads, but unfortunately in the champs I never faced any.

I would have the same stance on GOWK (really it's about SSM) no matter what happened this year. I hate SSM with a passion (in case that wasn't already clear). The issue for me is that ATTACKS are what this game is founded on. I have no problem with alternate damage, but it should never be a requirement to win. Someone has parry? I can use a non-melee ATTACK. Someone has evade? I can use an adjacent ATTACK. Someone has SSM? You are screwed with attacks. Don't bother listing the ways to get around it - I know all of them. None are really that viable. You should always be able to ATTACK characters and have a shot at winning. If someone is rolling hot with GOWK - you really can't.

For me - this boils down to luck up and skill down

GOWK winning the world championship just gives more reason to bring it up.


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