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 Post subject: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:58 pm 
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GOWK dominated the scene in 2009, until he was breifly banned and then errata'd to effective only against non-melee.

Cut to the 2012 competitive season when SSM was changed back to the card text (effective against all attacks), and he races to the top - winning several regionals and ultimately the world championship.

I argued vehemently against using the card text again, and I will again put forth the motion that SSM needs to be changed back to 2010-2011 definition permanently.

GOWK is clearly dominant, but that's not even my biggest issue. My issue is that luck is such a big part of the piece. Now don't misinterpret this please. Good players use him well. Trevor is without question one of the greatest players in our game, and he used him perfectly. That being said - a 50/50 chance of negating ANY attack is ridiculous. And that's without even a force point. Anything that increases the luck factor vs the skill factor in this game (where it is increasing too much IMO anyway) is a bad thing.

Do we really want to have our game be opening up a pack of quarters and seeing who flips more heads? That's what it feels like. In games with evenly skilled opponents and evenly matched squads it's always been true that luck can be the difference. That will never change. What I don't like is when mismatched skill and mismatched squads can be overcome by dumb luck. And not insane luck like "I rolled 13 1's in a row and he rolled fifteen 20s!", but he rolled over ten 3/4 of the time, and when he rolled under, he FPd and made the save. That's not that dramatic of luck but it's a huge swing in the game. With figures that are less skill pieces and more luck dependent (once again, don't misinterpret this - skilled players can use these pieces even more insanely well), this game is moving in a bad direction. With Avoid defeat being thrown around like candy and Mace LotLS killing full health 140pt figures from a riposte, we need to make a stand.

GOWK is the best place to start. Republic is without question dominant. Now they have a new piece that unless facing MT, virtually assures them winning a key init (why did we make that again?).

We need to go back to this:

Soresu Style Mastery:
When hit by a non-melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Hmm interesting points. By that logic that luck should be lessened in the game shouldn't we remove Windu before GOWK. At least GOWK can only do 40 damage maximum. You want to talk about luck driving the game more then strategey and skill look at my 150pt tourney in the JC at Gencon.

I went 3-1 easily. No real strategy just run Windu in and let the dice fly. Ooops didnt roll a crit well let me burn force pts to roll again. By the end of the 4 rounds I rolled crits (usually at key attacks) over 10 times in three wins and the one loss I was masterfully outplayed by Greg from Atlanta. None of my wins were any brilliant strategy used. Matter of fact I joked the entire tourney that I didnt want to think for the morning and just wanted to roll dice. Soresu is annoying as heck but it can be stopped with direct damage or just a superior attacker. In Windu's case if you get lucky and the crits start flying odds are your opponent will quickly be defeated.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:15 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
Hmm interesting points. By that logic that luck should be lessened in the game shouldn't we remove Windu before GOWK. At least GOWK can only do 40 damage maximum. You want to talk about luck driving the game more then strategey and skill look at my 150pt tourney in the JC at Gencon.

I went 3-1 easily. No real strategy just run Windu in and let the dice fly. Ooops didnt roll a crit well let me burn force pts to roll again. By the end of the 4 rounds I rolled crits (usually at key attacks) over 10 times in three wins and the one loss I was masterfully outplayed by Greg from Atlanta. None of my wins were any brilliant strategy used. Matter of fact I joked the entire tourney that I didnt want to think for the morning and just wanted to roll dice. Soresu is annoying as heck but it can be stopped with direct damage or just a superior attacker. In Windu's case if you get lucky and the crits start flying odds are your opponent will quickly be defeated.


I agree and that is my next thread


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:15 pm 
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The glossary defination was errata'd, so it can't go back to that.

In the age of powerful Vong and Double Ysalimari, I'm not overly worried about GOWK twisting the game again. I mean, even the ol'Electroshock squads got new life. There is so much diversity, that the GOWK counters can come out and do well.

You may want to also check out at the amount of Overwhelming Power like stuff has been made.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
The glossary defination was errata'd, so it can't go back to that.

In the age of powerful Vong and Double Ysalimari, I'm not overly worried about GOWK twisting the game again. I mean, even the ol'Electroshock squads got new life. There is so much diversity, that the GOWK counters can come out and do well.

You may want to also check out at the amount of Overwhelming Power like stuff has been made.


Clearly these didn't change anything. Just look at the results. Jake tried all year to make a competitive overwhelming force squad, but it never quite made it.

Vong are obviously not a threat at the moment, but even if so - (and this goes for Ysalamiri too) it doesn't effect the initial roll. If you are successful on the first 50/50 - you're golden no matter what.

There is a precedence for changing SSM, which is why I started here.

Another point is that SSM as it is greatly PROLONGS games. Not good in our game where so many games already go to time.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:23 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Another point is that SSM as it is greatly PROLONGS games. Not good in our game where so many games already go to time.


Im quoting that for emphasis. In the before mentioned JC, my first match was against a mirror GOWK/Windu. Our Windus literally were defeated at the same time and we had both killed all the other figures in the match to where it was just two GOWKs... ten minutes later were still going in the Gowk on Gowk matchup. Just to clarify that was ten minutes of; Roll iniative, Player 1 rolls first attack, player two roles Seresu, player 1 rolls second attack, Player 2 rolls Seresu.. So on and so forth.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:26 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Another point is that SSM as it is greatly PROLONGS games. Not good in our game where so many games already go to time.


Im quoting that for emphasis. In the before mentioned JC, my first match was against a mirror GOWK/Windu. Our Windus literally were defeated at the same time and we had both killed all the other figures in the match to where it was just two GOWKs... ten minutes later were still going in the Gowk on Gowk matchup. Just to clarify that was ten minutes of; Roll iniative, Player 1 rolls first attack, player two roles Seresu, player 1 rolls second attack, Player 2 rolls Seresu.. So on and so forth.


Exactly. That could LITERALLY go on forever


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Interesting idea, and I'm not surprised that it came up. And actually, I personally wouldn't mind the change. :)

But before we take that step (again), we need to seriously consider the damage output that flies around these days. Naboo Pilots do 90dmg on their deathshots, nevermind what they do beforehand. The Weir/Tyber combo (winning init with MT) does up to 200dmg (within a Ysalamiri bubble too). Mace can eat anything with a lucky string of 17s. Sometimes it seems like almost every squad has its own version of the Death Star's planet-destroying-laser!

So if we're looking to neuter SSM, then we've got to consider what will hold the game's insane damage output in check.

I don't have a problem with Avoid Defeat being more common, nor do I have a problem with Evade and Parry being more common either. These things are necessary in today's game. Yes, they add more save-based luck; in the RR Team Tourney this year, my Huntress evaded 240dmg (!!!) before finally dropping to a shooter that based her for the sure damage. But that kind of save luck is rare. Because of the high damage output in the game now, there simply has to be some method of avoiding damage (and/or else of healing well, ala Dr.Evazan).

It is clear that "tank squads" are becoming more popular. I think that's a good thing, because it allows more squads to be able to compete. Anyone would agree that the competitive SWM meta is more wide-open now than it's ever been. But what if those tank squads are no longer so durable...then will we see more of the high-activation squads again? The competitive meta is a delicate balance, and one that we need to be careful with.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:44 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Interesting idea, and I'm not surprised that it came up. And actually, I personally wouldn't mind the change. :)

But before we take that step (again), we need to seriously consider the damage output that flies around these days. Naboo Pilots do 90dmg on their deathshots, nevermind what they do beforehand. The Weir/Tyber combo (winning init with MT) does up to 200dmg (within a Ysalamiri bubble too). Mace can eat anything with a lucky string of 17s. Sometimes it seems like almost every squad has its own version of the Death Star's planet-destroying-laser!

So if we're looking to neuter SSM, then we've got to consider what will hold the game's insane damage output in check.

I don't have a problem with Avoid Defeat being more common, nor do I have a problem with Evade and Parry being more common either. These things are necessary in today's game. Yes, they add more save-based luck; in the RR Team Tourney this year, my Huntress evaded 240dmg (!!!) before finally dropping to a shooter that based her for the sure damage. But that kind of save luck is rare. Because of the high damage output in the game now, there simply has to be some method of avoiding damage (and/or else of healing well, ala Dr.Evazan).

It is clear that "tank squads" are becoming more popular. I think that's a good thing, because it allows more squads to be able to compete. Anyone would agree that the competitive SWM meta is more wide-open now than it's ever been. But what if those tank squads are no longer so durable...then will we see more of the high-activation squads again? The competitive meta is a delicate balance, and one that we need to be careful with.


+1

Pretty much, defense has not kept up with the damage powercreep. The amount of figs that can Double/Twin at over 20 Dam is pretty bad. As much as I like the first 2 Vsets, you have to recognize that it sort of escalated things, some intentionally, some not. Where does defense get escalated? How do you do it without creating another GOWK situation.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:52 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Interesting idea, and I'm not surprised that it came up. And actually, I personally wouldn't mind the change. :)

But before we take that step (again), we need to seriously consider the damage output that flies around these days. Naboo Pilots do 90dmg on their deathshots, nevermind what they do beforehand. The Weir/Tyber combo (winning init with MT) does up to 200dmg (within a Ysalamiri bubble too). Mace can eat anything with a lucky string of 17s. Sometimes it seems like almost every squad has its own version of the Death Star's planet-destroying-laser!

So if we're looking to neuter SSM, then we've got to consider what will hold the game's insane damage output in check.

I don't have a problem with Avoid Defeat being more common, nor do I have a problem with Evade and Parry being more common either. These things are necessary in today's game. Yes, they add more save-based luck; in the RR Team Tourney this year, my Huntress evaded 240dmg (!!!) before finally dropping to a shooter that based her for the sure damage. But that kind of save luck is rare. Because of the high damage output in the game now, there simply has to be some method of avoiding damage (and/or else of healing well, ala Dr.Evazan).

It is clear that "tank squads" are becoming more popular. I think that's a good thing, because it allows more squads to be able to compete. Anyone would agree that the competitive SWM meta is more wide-open now than it's ever been. But what if those tank squads are no longer so durable...then will we see more of the high-activation squads again? The competitive meta is a delicate balance, and one that we need to be careful with.


Good points indeed. I do agree that many things must be thought through before making a decision like this.

It's unfortunate that so many luck abilities (especially 50/50 ones) are considered necessary to play these days. It's hard to argue that damage has gone up, but is making a 50/50 save to negate it all the answer? I say no.

I actually think abilities like Teras Kasi are better. Don't negate that 30 damage hit entirely, just soften the blow.

Actually, a non-melee version of this would be great. -10 Dam from non- adjacent attacks


Last edited by TimmerB123 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Interesting idea, and I'm not surprised that it came up. And actually, I personally wouldn't mind the change. :)

But before we take that step (again), we need to seriously consider the damage output that flies around these days. Naboo Pilots do 90dmg on their deathshots, nevermind what they do beforehand. The Weir/Tyber combo (winning init with MT) does up to 200dmg (within a Ysalamiri bubble too). Mace can eat anything with a lucky string of 17s. Sometimes it seems like almost every squad has its own version of the Death Star's planet-destroying-laser!

So if we're looking to neuter SSM, then we've got to consider what will hold the game's insane damage output in check.

I don't have a problem with Avoid Defeat being more common, nor do I have a problem with Evade and Parry being more common either. These things are necessary in today's game. Yes, they add more save-based luck; in the RR Team Tourney this year, my Huntress evaded 240dmg (!!!) before finally dropping to a shooter that based her for the sure damage. But that kind of save luck is rare. Because of the high damage output in the game now, there simply has to be some method of avoiding damage (and/or else of healing well, ala Dr.Evazan).

It is clear that "tank squads" are becoming more popular. I think that's a good thing, because it allows more squads to be able to compete. Anyone would agree that the competitive SWM meta is more wide-open now than it's ever been. But what if those tank squads are no longer so durable...then will we see more of the high-activation squads again? The competitive meta is a delicate balance, and one that we need to be careful with.


+1

Pretty much, defense has not kept up with the damage powercreep. The amount of figs that can Double/Twin at over 20 Dam is pretty bad. As much as I like the first 2 Vsets, you have to recognize that it sort of escalated things, some intentionally, some not. Where does defense get escalated? How do you do it without creating another GOWK situation.


Another +1.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:58 pm 
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The errata would still give GOWK a better evade then anyone else. Non-melee and you get to keep it if the shooter goes base to base. Awsome sauce, thats a totally great deal at 55 pts with a 22 defense fig with that commander effect. Where I think the problem lies is that you get to put this figure with the best movement breaker in the game, one of the best shooters and oh yeah the best Melee figure to ever appear in the game that doesnt cost 100pts.

Now in 200 I dont think any of this is that big of an issue. I went to four regionals and watched many squads tear down those figs time and time again. Also the 200pt meta is diverse enough to allow a luck based squad to do ok.

The problem was in the smaller pt total events. Notice 2 G/W squads took the top 4 in the 150 of the JC. Also I think the only loss for one of them was a mirror and mine lost to being out witted on the map I deplore most.. broken Base.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:06 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Actually, a non-melee version of this would be great. -10 Dam from non- adjacent attacks


No real arguement from me. I do like damage reducing abilities like Teras Kasi. There is one piece in V5 I'm eagerly awaiting playtest info on.

I'm not dismissing concerns. But I've seen a real problem with damage that others haven't really noticed, imo. I kind of want to see how things balance out with stuff coming out.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
I'm not dismissing concerns. But I've seen a real problem with damage that others haven't really noticed, imo. I kind of want to see how things balance out with stuff coming out.


You won't hear any argument from me on this one. I hate losing a key figure in one turn because Atton Rand hits me with two shots for 40 and reactivates and does it again. Oops you just misplaced your fig so Im going to blast it for 120pts of damage, killing it before you use it. It makes sure that rounds end in time, but it sure doesn't allow for a lot of interaction of the figures.

I don't think a mere 10 damage is going to do all that much. So Atton shoots your Jedi for 30 instead of 40 or Windu crits for 50 or maybe even 60 still depending on the squad. About the only squad I see a -10 consistantly being hurt by would be Storm Commandos. The rest of the usual suspects would treat it like a rd block at best.

The best answer I think for the issue would be an ability that reduced the damage to its printed original total. Atton would shoot for 20 and lose bastilla, Assasin, and the +10 damage from the diplomat. That would put the damage back into range with how this game was designed to deal damage.. 20 at a time.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:24 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
Im quoting that for emphasis. In the before mentioned JC, my first match was against a mirror GOWK/Windu. Our Windus literally were defeated at the same time and we had both killed all the other figures in the match to where it was just two GOWKs... ten minutes later were still going in the Gowk on Gowk matchup. Just to clarify that was ten minutes of; Roll iniative, Player 1 rolls first attack, player two roles Seresu, player 1 rolls second attack, Player 2 rolls Seresu.. So on and so forth.

We sure did have fun with that, lol. You lucked out and made more Soresu saves than I did.


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:26 pm 
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jedispyder wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
Im quoting that for emphasis. In the before mentioned JC, my first match was against a mirror GOWK/Windu. Our Windus literally were defeated at the same time and we had both killed all the other figures in the match to where it was just two GOWKs... ten minutes later were still going in the Gowk on Gowk matchup. Just to clarify that was ten minutes of; Roll iniative, Player 1 rolls first attack, player two roles Seresu, player 1 rolls second attack, Player 2 rolls Seresu.. So on and so forth.

We sure did have fun with that, lol. You lucked out and made more Soresu saves than I did.


Yeah it was fun and kindoff nerve racking at the same time. Each roll had a ton of drama in them LOL.

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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:44 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
jedispyder wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
Im quoting that for emphasis. In the before mentioned JC, my first match was against a mirror GOWK/Windu. Our Windus literally were defeated at the same time and we had both killed all the other figures in the match to where it was just two GOWKs... ten minutes later were still going in the Gowk on Gowk matchup. Just to clarify that was ten minutes of; Roll iniative, Player 1 rolls first attack, player two roles Seresu, player 1 rolls second attack, Player 2 rolls Seresu.. So on and so forth.

We sure did have fun with that, lol. You lucked out and made more Soresu saves than I did.


Yeah it was fun and kindoff nerve racking at the same time. Each roll had a ton of drama in them LOL.


This doesn't sound fun to me


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 Post subject: Re: GOWK. Yes, sorry, this had to be brought up
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:12 pm 
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Is there any reason why you're talking about GOWK rather than Zannah? Do you consider GOWK more powerful because he can be paired with a potentially heavy damage dealer like Windu?

I'm kind of in team Sithborg, where I don't mind having some damage soaks in the meta to negate the heavy damage, but last time I played against Zannah she was super frustrating. She negated 6 30 damage shots at +17 and +19 without taking damage or even having to spend a force point.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:22 pm 
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I'm guessing the reason GOWK is a bigger problem is because he also has mettle. So it's more likely he'll avoid damage every time he gets to reroll.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:26 pm 
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hannahcannon wrote:
I'm guessing the reason GOWK is a bigger problem is because he also has mettle. So it's more likely he'll avoid damage every time he gets to reroll.


Correct. GOWK is the figure at the top of the heap, but I hate Zannah too.

The proposed change (back) to SSM would effect both.


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