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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:08 am 
Death Star Designers
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I might take the blame for infecting Atlanta with Citadels. We played it after hours at GenCon in 2010, and to my knowledge it was their first time.


Haha, oh yeah, I remember that. Deri got assassinated like 3 turns in a row and started getting pissed. :lol:


I find Ascension to be strictly worse than Dominion; the fact that what you can buy changes every turn makes it MUCH more luck-based (depending on just what is out for you to buy) and makes it much more difficult to create a strong deck since you have so much less control. Good Dominion play requires very deliberate, strategic execution of a plan. Good Ascension play is more about getting the right stuff at the right time and just buying the strongest card out there. I think that an algorithm that just buys the most expensive card you can afford each turn would do a lot better in Ascension than in Dominion.

Setup time is also greatly mitigated if you use a storage method other than the boxes that Dominion comes in. Personally I have a large 3-ring binder that easily holds all my cards and is organized by set and then alphabetically, and it never takes more than 2-3 minutes to set up or tear down the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Echo wrote:
Setup time is also greatly mitigated if you use a storage method other than the boxes that Dominion comes in. Personally I have a large 3-ring binder that easily holds all my cards and is organized by set and then alphabetically, and it never takes more than 2-3 minutes to set up or tear down the game.


Oooh... nice... gotta check that out and make modifications when I get back home.

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
Echo wrote:
Setup time is also greatly mitigated if you use a storage method other than the boxes that Dominion comes in. Personally I have a large 3-ring binder that easily holds all my cards and is organized by set and then alphabetically, and it never takes more than 2-3 minutes to set up or tear down the game.


Oooh... nice... gotta check that out and make modifications when I get back home.


Note that I have just Base and 3 expansions (Intrigue, Alchemy, and Prosperity). I've got I think a 2.5" binder and might be able to fit a 5th set in it, but it would be close. If you have more sets you should either get a larger binder or just use 2 binders. I also have a pretty nice one that zips up all around and has pockets for counters and such, and I keep the randomizers in a separate standard deck box. It's a nice package and makes it easy to carry the game around.

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:56 pm 
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Echo wrote:
I find Ascension to be strictly worse than Dominion; the fact that what you can buy changes every turn makes it MUCH more luck-based (depending on just what is out for you to buy) and makes it much more difficult to create a strong deck since you have so much less control. Good Dominion play requires very deliberate, strategic execution of a plan. Good Ascension play is more about getting the right stuff at the right time and just buying the strongest card out there. I think that an algorithm that just buys the most expensive card you can afford each turn would do a lot better in Ascension than in Dominion.


Translation: Blah blah blah, I'm a tosser.

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:19 pm 
Moff Disra
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The age old discussion, Ascension vs Dominion.

I'm looking forward to playing some at Gencon.


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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:06 am 
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Echo wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
I might take the blame for infecting Atlanta with Citadels. We played it after hours at GenCon in 2010, and to my knowledge it was their first time.


Haha, oh yeah, I remember that. Deri got assassinated like 3 turns in a row and started getting pissed. :lol:


What's funny is that to a Welshman getting pissed means drunk, and he was definitely doing that too!

Echo wrote:
Setup time is also greatly mitigated if you use a storage method other than the boxes that Dominion comes in. Personally I have a large 3-ring binder that easily holds all my cards and is organized by set and then alphabetically, and it never takes more than 2-3 minutes to set up or tear down the game.


It takes longer to set-up/tear down dominion EVERY TIME, regardless of storage system. I don't mind the organization of the Dominion box storage system. I have the big box exclusive, which has the original game, prosperity and alchemy all in one box. My issue with it is the size - it's huge. I have all the expansions and it practically takes a dolly to tote them all around. 3 ring binders might save space - so it is a good idea, but I don't see how much time it would save. I am not bringing Dominion this year because I literally don't have SPACE.

Echo wrote:
I find Ascension to be strictly worse than Dominion; the fact that what you can buy changes every turn makes it MUCH more luck-based (depending on just what is out for you to buy) and makes it much more difficult to create a strong deck since you have so much less control. Good Dominion play requires very deliberate, strategic execution of a plan. Good Ascension play is more about getting the right stuff at the right time and just buying the strongest card out there. I think that an algorithm that just buys the most expensive card you can afford each turn would do a lot better in Ascension than in Dominion.


This is spoken like someone who hasn't played Ascension much. While there is some truth to the fact that there is luck of when a card dropped that is not present in Dominion, it's much smaller than you think.

You are 100% wrong (hilariously so) about just buying the most expensive card would win you the game most times. As I get better at the game I find myself strategically NOT buying cards even when I can. I have probably played more games of ascension that you have Dominion (due to the fact it's an app on iPhone!) and I can't get enough.

Oh yeah, it's an app on iPhone! You can pop out a game in less than 10 minutes on your phone - Dominion wouldn't even be set up by that point! (You still have to choose what decks to use in Dominion, regardless of the "speedy" 3 ring binder setup)

And let's face it - you have to be selective about what decks you choose. I have a Dominion randomizer app, and random games often suck. The best Dominion games I have played were through carefully chosen decks. Otherwise it's clear that one strategy is the best, and everyone races for it. Then it's luck of the draw from your own deck. That's even worse than luck of the draw from the center deck.

You see - with the addition of "honor" and killing monsters, Ascension has multiple paths to victory. SO it's more fluid thinking, adapting strategies as different tools become available. Dominion you rarely change course - you make a plan and sprint towards it. Dominion is all about the pre-game plan. Ascension is thinking on your feet.

I was the "Dominion" guy in our group. I have all the expansions, and I was always trying to get people to play. People thought it was decent, but like Ascension better. Now that giant stack of boxes that is Dominion mostly collects dust.

Not all of us have a job where we sit in front of a computer and get paid while we play games. So no - I'm not going to play Dominion online.

Ascension on my phone in under 10 minutes anywhere I want? Yes please! I can be out and about and grab a quick game anytime and not be stuck at home in front of my computer. Sweet!

If they ever make Dominion into an app then I would buy it, but honestly I don't even know if I'll buy the new expansion.


Now - all that being said, I am in for Dominion. Although it won't be as fun with Daniel just trouncing us, I am still in. It's much better when you can just join in and play (not have to pick decks, organize, or transport everything - I was always that guy). Besides, I am playing in 2 Ascension tournaments on Thursday.


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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:40 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
And let's face it - you have to be selective about what decks you choose. I have a Dominion randomizer app, and random games often suck. The best Dominion games I have played were through carefully chosen decks. Otherwise it's clear that one strategy is the best, and everyone races for it. Then it's luck of the draw from your own deck. That's even worse than luck of the draw from the center deck.


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Dominion you rarely change course - you make a plan and sprint towards it. Dominion is all about the pre-game plan.


This is spoken like someone who hasn't played competitive Dominion much. A big part of Dominion is deciding your strategy before the first card is bought, sure, but inability to change will very often lead to you losing. In a game where it can be difficult to change gears but also important to do so, there's a lot of strategy to how and when you do that. You're also wrong that there is often clearly one best strategy; on very rare occasions is that true. There might be one very strong card that people rush for, but how you get that card or how you supplement it normally provides lots of options. I pretty much always consider random sets to be much more interesting than pre-chosen sets.

Also, if it takes you 10 minutes to set up Dominion, you're seriously doing something wrong. I guess always playing pre-chosen kingdoms makes that happen, because like I said, I can VERY easily set up or tear down the game in under 5 minutes with random kingdoms. Pre-chosen kingdoms is a variant, though, not the main way the game is played, and seems akin to stacking the deck in Ascension to make a more "interesting" game. I bet that would take a really long time, too!

There is also a Dominion app, BTW.

Really, I think the difference is similar to the difference between, say, Chess and SWM (but much less extreme). Chess might be more bland, but that's because it's more structured and really less chaotic. There is literally no random chance in Chess. It's pure tactics. SWM has more chaos, is less structured, less "fair" (the meta is fair since everyone has access to the same pieces, but individual games aren't since people bring different squads), and infinitely more random. Obviously the gap is vastly narrower between Dominion and Ascension, but it's a similar concept. Dominion is a more structured, less random, more tactical game. Ascension is much more chaotic. Despite the fact that I like SWM much more than Chess, in this case I like Dominion much more than Ascension.

One more thing...

Quote:
Not all of us have a job where we sit in front of a computer and get paid while we play games.


Don't be a jackass. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:55 am 
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Echo wrote:

There is also a Dominion app, BTW.

Installed for my android: 27 July 2012 11:55 am

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:02 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Echo wrote:

There is also a Dominion app, BTW.

Installed for my android: 27 July 2012 11:55 am


:lol: The Android Dominion app is more popular and has been around longer, but since Tim mentioned an iPhone I assume he has one of those. There is a Dominion iPhone app, and although it isn't official I've heard it's pretty good (I know Weeks uses it). Rio Grande is also making an official app, which I'm in the beta for and is really good (although I've only been able to test the in-browser version).

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:06 am 
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Back on topic: I'll also be bringing the Call of Cthulhu LCG with me. I just got the core set and I'm pretty excited to try it out, but I haven't had a chance to play it yet. It's only a 2 player game, but if anyone else is interested it will be an option.

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:20 am 
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Echo wrote:
Back on topic: I'll also be bringing the Call of Cthulhu LCG with me. I just got the core set and I'm pretty excited to try it out, but I haven't had a chance to play it yet. It's only a 2 player game, but if anyone else is interested it will be an option.


Shawn will, but we won't be in till Friday

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:47 am 
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Echo wrote:

Quote:
Dominion you rarely change course - you make a plan and sprint towards it. Dominion is all about the pre-game plan.


This is spoken like someone who hasn't played competitive Dominion much.


True - I can't get anyone to play this game with me anymore.

Echo wrote:
There might be one very strong card that people rush for, but how you get that card or how you supplement it normally provides lots of options. I pretty much always consider random sets to be much more interesting than pre-chosen sets.


I frequently found that all the players were racing for the same strategy, and whoever veered from the course lost. It's not so much pre-chosen Kingdoms that I like to play, it's carefully thought out ones with multiple viable strategies. But I fully concede that I have less experience than you.


Echo wrote:
There is also a Dominion app, BTW.


This I did not know - I will have to check it out. Can you play live or vs AI opponents?

Echo wrote:
One more thing...

Quote:
Not all of us have a job where we sit in front of a computer and get paid while we play games.


Don't be a jackass. :roll:


I think you misinterpreted my tone here. I am jealous, I wish I could do that. All my computer time comes out of my free time, I have such a full schedule that I have to be very careful with where I choose to spend computer time. Dominion online I am sure is very fun, but simply not an option for me. More of a shot if I can do it on my phone. I wish I could play Dominion more, but when very few people in my area want to play it that much, it's not really gonna happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:06 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Echo wrote:
There might be one very strong card that people rush for, but how you get that card or how you supplement it normally provides lots of options. I pretty much always consider random sets to be much more interesting than pre-chosen sets.


I frequently found that all the players were racing for the same strategy, and whoever veered from the course lost. It's not so much pre-chosen Kingdoms that I like to play, it's carefully thought out ones with multiple viable strategies. But I fully concede that I have less experience than you.


This is basically the third level of thought when you start playing Dominion a lot.

The first level is "Hey Action cards are awesome and more fun than money, so I'm just gonna buy Actions". This results in a lot of dead draws and bad combos and is just bad play, but common if you're new to the game and haven't learned any real strategy yet.

The second level is "Big Money beats everything, Dominion is lame" (Big Money is the strategy where you ONLY buy money and VP cards). It's easy to think that because Big Money is way stronger than just randomly buying Action cards, which is where people start at. It averages 4 Provinces in 18 turns, which is solid, and it's pretty much the standard that Dominion strategies are held to. You quickly learn, however, that it doesn't beat pretty much any well thought out deck, and things like Witch + Big Money or Smithy + Big Money are not only strictly better but vastly better.

The third level is learning that intricate strategies and engines are great and often the best way to win. However, this usually leads to either trying to force an engine when there really isn't a good one and you would actually be better off using some kind of X + Big Money, or you just know how a few engines work and rush for those when you see them instead of using more subtle, stronger strategies.

The fourth level is pretty much the pinnacle, when you realize that sometimes Big Money or X + Big Money is the dominant strategy, sometimes some sort of elaborate engine where you draw your entire enormous deck is the dominant strategy, sometimes a 5-card deck is the dominant strategy, sometimes alternate VP is the dominant strategy, and so on. I think that playing with pre-chosen kingdoms will actually prevent you from ever getting to this level, because if you're pre-choosing the kingdoms then you won't see new combos. You're picking from the beginning "Alright, we'll play with this combo, this combo, and this combo" instead of just randomly picking 10 and then figuring out the combo. That's why I think pre-choosing the kingdoms is actually a bad idea and takes a lot of the fun out of the game. You'll play with the same old combos every time, instead of slick new ones. For example, I recently won a game based on a really weird Scout + Wishing Well combo; neither card are really strong on their own, so if I pre-chose the kingdom I'd probably never choose them, but after seeing them out there I saw that they synergized really well together and went for it. That's what makes Dominion fun to me; figuring out what is best based on the kingdom. Pre-chosing the kingdom pretty much eliminates that and makes for a pretty un-fun game I would think.

Interesting kingdoms are ones that DON'T have any obvious strategies. Village + Torturer isn't really fun, nor is any kingdom with Ill-Gotten Gains and no counters. Being given a crappy kingdom and trying to figure out what will beat Big Money (which is obviously available in every kingdom, but is rarely the strongest option) is really a key part of the game.


Quote:
Echo wrote:
There is also a Dominion app, BTW.


This I did not know - I will have to check it out. Can you play live or vs AI opponents?


I think it's just AI, but I haven't actually used it. I know the official one that Rio Grande is making will have live multiplayer.

Quote:
Echo wrote:
One more thing...

Quote:
Not all of us have a job where we sit in front of a computer and get paid while we play games.


Don't be a jackass. :roll:


I think you misinterpreted my tone here. I am jealous, I wish I could do that. All my computer time comes out of my free time, I have such a full schedule that I have to be very careful with where I choose to spend computer time. Dominion online I am sure is very fun, but simply not an option for me. More of a shot if I can do it on my phone. I wish I could play Dominion more, but when very few people in my area want to play it that much, it's not really gonna happen.


Fair enough, I suppose. I definitely took your tone as you bring a jackass.

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:42 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Echo wrote:
Back on topic: I'll also be bringing the Call of Cthulhu LCG with me. I just got the core set and I'm pretty excited to try it out, but I haven't had a chance to play it yet. It's only a 2 player game, but if anyone else is interested it will be an option.


Shawn will, but we won't be in till Friday


If J and I come to this (we haven't talked about it, but it seems like a possibility), I would play with you. I have zero experience with Cthulhu, but I'd like to learn ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:19 am 
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Just trying to plan my game packing here. Is there any interest in the following games?

Puerto Rico
Medici
4rth Edition Talisman & The Dragon expansion
Star Trek Deck Building Game (The Next Generation)
Warcraft the Boardgame (Based on Warcraft 3, not the online RPG)
Star Wars Epic Duels
Frag
ScrumBrawl ( Think D&D/ Fantasy meets Rugby)

Lighter offerings:

Seven Dragons
Flapjacks and Sasquatches
Bananagrams
Cthulu Dice

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:02 am 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
Warcraft the Boardgame (Based on Warcraft 3, not the online RPG)
Puerto Rico
ScrumBrawl ( Think D&D/ Fantasy meets Rugby)

These ones appeal to me (in order from most to least), though for sure I want a game or two of Dominion that night too.

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:16 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
Warcraft the Boardgame (Based on Warcraft 3, not the online RPG)
Puerto Rico
ScrumBrawl ( Think D&D/ Fantasy meets Rugby)

These ones appeal to me (in order from most to least), though for sure I want a game or two of Dominion that night too.


As do I... Daniel is already bringing it, or I would have included it on my own list. Hey... maybe we can try some of these Tuesday night when you get here.

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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
Just trying to plan my game packing here. Is there any interest in the following games?

Puerto Rico
Medici
4rth Edition Talisman & The Dragon expansion
Star Trek Deck Building Game (The Next Generation)
Warcraft the Boardgame (Based on Warcraft 3, not the online RPG)
Star Wars Epic Duels
Frag
ScrumBrawl ( Think D&D/ Fantasy meets Rugby)

Lighter offerings:

Seven Dragons
Flapjacks and Sasquatches
Bananagrams
Cthulu Dice


Star Wars Epic Duels - aka gateway drug to Star Wars miniatures. Classic. Love it.

PS - Star Wars Epic Duels fun tournament 10pm on Friday. I can't wait! Should be a lot of fun after the World Championship.

Roommate got Star Trek card game. A bit dissappointed. Whoever lucks out and gets the first ship virtually always wins.

Bananagrams? Seriously? We're real gamers - we might as well play Apples to Apples. ;)

I like Puerto Rico alright, but you really need equal level opponents all around the board. Otherwise whoever follows the rookie runs away with it.

Regardless, we'll never play every option, even packing light. Very wise to see where is interest before bringing everything.

Its usually so chaotic on Wed night, people coming and going, catching up with everyone, etc. I recommend games that can easily be explained, and finish in under an hour (under 30min even better). I also recommend games that won't be bothered if people drop, since that's bound to happen.

Looking forward to it!


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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:07 am 
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OK - checked with the hotel, and we are good to go!

Checked if we can gather and game in the lobby (as long as we don't disturb other guests).

Checked if there were certain hours that we could do this (it's open 24/7)

Checked if we can eat and drink (as long as we don't make a mess)

We may be in the first floor lobby, or we may be up one flight of stairs on the second floor open area (they may have more table room up there). Either way - we're set.


So it's on!

Indianapolis Westin
50 South Capitol Avenue
Indianapolis, IN 46204
(317) 262-8100


PM me for my cell # if you want to meet up - or just come on by!


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 Post subject: Re: Wednesday night?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:51 am 
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I'm all for epic duels, and Kung fu. I havnt played dominion in over a year so I might pass on that one as I don't even think I remember everything of the game.
Hell, I'm up for anything.
And Tim, what's wrong with "real" gamers playing apples to apples. Apples to Apples is a blast, in fact,
I can bring my Big Bang Theory version with if anyone is interested (you don't have to know the show in order to play) but if you don't know the show, then your missing out, cause that is by far the funniest show, I love it. It's also one of the very few shows that my wife enjoys as much as I do.

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