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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:52 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Don;t get me wrong I see your points, especially on the not disatisfying x% of the community, but let's face it. That's inherent, look at the thread two years ago when Dean posted the legal maps with custom maps added. Same amount of complaints one way or the other...why not this, why that. Seems to me same thing here, just on timing.

Honestly, I've got to water down a lot of the complaints when people follow it up with "This won't affect me." Okay, so they're mad but...kind of a thing. One guy has this really truly affect and that is just as accountable to his overwhelming pride than anything...

You're pissed off...okay. Now get over it. I can see where I was wrong, and hopefully youc an see likewise. We'll move forward not backward on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:53 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
@Tim

One of the huge complaints of the local players that left recently was that the "elites" got to be in the know and do everything in the game, and even worse in their minds entirely shape and determine the rules of the game. While I don't agree with this sentiment there is a slight glimmer of truth. This can create an unfair advantage to those in the know. For example the Vset only tourney, players who have handled all the Vset 4 figs have an advantage over me in figureing out what figures to use in the event. Personally I think they earned that right for their hard work but Im sure we can all see where that might make someone feel they have an unfair advantage.

In this ruling case you and a few others got blindsided the same way everyone else did. Also if I may play devils advocate, why is it ok that the Vset 4 figures are legal for the Vset tournament under the guise of everyone will have all the fig stats in a few weeks and everyone is getting upset that three maps are gone with a few weeks notice. 70+ figs ok.. 3 maps in same amount of time.. bad.


I agree - v-set only with v-set 4 included is a bad idea. Similar to the epics last year frankly.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:55 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
In this ruling case you and a few others got blindsided the same way everyone else did. Also if I may play devils advocate, why is it ok that the Vset 4 figures are legal for the Vset tournament under the guise of everyone will have all the fig stats in a few weeks and everyone is getting upset that three maps are gone with a few weeks notice. 70+ figs ok.. 3 maps in same amount of time.. bad.


Because one thing affects the National Championship and the other affects a very small, relatively inconsequential tournament?

That said, I do agree with you somewhat, and I was one of the main people pushing for a full 2 weeks or more for people to look at V-set 4 specifically because of that tournament. If it were up to me, I would probably not allow set 4 specifically because of that unfair advantage that the people who have seen the whole set get, but hey, at least it isn't affecting the championship! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:58 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Echo wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Echo wrote:

which I still think could have been helped by more transparency, which is what I think this whole discussion is really about.



That's what I've would have thought two days ago but everytime I speak about this and mention that it was brought TO me by a person representing a decent cross section of the community, it's been ignored with a restatement of "Brad made this decision unilaterally".

I agree with a previous assessment someone made that it's really "I'm mad "because I didn't get a say."

So I'm pretty much over it now.


Giving vague statements doesn't help anything. I can see why people aren't satisfied by them. Personally I don't care WHY it was done - I care about what we do to fix it now, how to avoid backlash like this in the future. Transparency beforehand, and during the decision making process is a good step in that direction.


Sigh...the only thing vague was the names of the people, which given the volatility of this, is not my place to give. Transparency is there, as mentioned above, that ceases to be my problem. Not posting is different from not telling you when asked.


I take issue somewhat with this and with your prior post. It isn't the community's responsibility to ask you what you are planning on changing; it's your responsibility to let us know. You being willing to tell us if we ask isn't transparency, making sure everyone is informed beforehand about things like this is transparency.

In the future, I would suggest giving a "preview" of what will be done in the upcoming floor rules change before it is actually in place so any concerns can be voiced beforehand instead of after the fact. This has been done a lot in the past (everyone knew that SSM was going to be changed before it actually was BOTH times it was changed, for example), and makes these things go over better.


Probably and that's fair but see my previous post. You know full well this has happened before (where I have posted changes elsewhere besides general forums). This was one instance where I didn't, was it a mistake?? Maybe, maybe not. Will it happen in the future...probably not. However, I will not sit thru 9 pages of bullshit because 90% of us can't agree with the others.

You can DEMAND transparency and all of you knowing full well how I take demands I could demand you all kiss my ass. However, that is clearly not best, on either side. I've shown I'm willing to give plenty of times, but I'm not seeing it elsewhere right now. Mistakes were made, account them however you wish and we move on.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Echo wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
In this ruling case you and a few others got blindsided the same way everyone else did. Also if I may play devils advocate, why is it ok that the Vset 4 figures are legal for the Vset tournament under the guise of everyone will have all the fig stats in a few weeks and everyone is getting upset that three maps are gone with a few weeks notice. 70+ figs ok.. 3 maps in same amount of time.. bad.


Because one thing affects the National Championship and the other affects a very small, relatively inconsequential tournament?

That said, I do agree with you somewhat, and I was one of the main people pushing for a full 2 weeks or more for people to look at V-set 4 specifically because of that tournament. If it were up to me, I would probably not allow set 4 specifically because of that unfair advantage that the people who have seen the whole set get, but hey, at least it isn't affecting the championship! ;)


The thing is I don't mind. I think the design team has earned the right for that advantage by their hard work. I'm actually not trying to complain about that at all, just using it as a fact with this map discussion.

I totally understand how you guys feel about the Championship and that you want it to be the purest tournament of the year and that the winner needs to be the undisputed champion and no issues to deter from that.

Now to be fully honest and maybe this is affecting my melencoly on this issue is that I won't be at the championship. For me and HannahCannon the JC is our championship for the year. In my championship I'll be getting my cards the day of the event LOL. I guess planning for that is keeping from fretting to much over the fact I can't use my well liked Muun map for a long time :)

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:17 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Quote:
You can DEMAND transparency and all of you knowing full well how I take demands I could demand you all kiss my ass. However, that is clearly not best, on either side. I've shown I'm willing to give plenty of times, but I'm not seeing it elsewhere right now. Mistakes were made, account them however you wish and we move on.


If this is your attitude about it maybe you shouldn't be in charge of doing this anymore. Your basically sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "I'm right, your wrong, blah blah blah" it's childish. I will demand transparency in anything that effects how I spend my precious few hours of hobbytime and you telling me to kiss your ass isn't what I want to hear from the guy in charge of changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:17 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Weeks wrote:
Quote:
You can DEMAND transparency and all of you knowing full well how I take demands I could demand you all kiss my ass. However, that is clearly not best, on either side. I've shown I'm willing to give plenty of times, but I'm not seeing it elsewhere right now. Mistakes were made, account them however you wish and we move on.


If this is your attitude about it maybe you shouldn't be in charge of doing this anymore. Your basically sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "I'm right, your wrong, blah blah blah" it's childish. I will demand transparency in anything that effects how I spend my precious few hours of hobbytime and you telling me to kiss your ass isn't what I want to hear from the guy in charge of changes.


Reread it.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:23 pm 
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First I want to thank Brad for taking on the job that is going to generate the most complaints.

I think that we need to support whatever decisions Brad makes, even if we do not agree with them. Brad has taken the job that is most thankless and we should support him. If you do not agree with what he does just tell what you think is wrong and not drag it out into a long argument that makes the problem even worse for the community.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Dracon2 wrote:
First I want to thank Brad for taking on the job that is going to generate the most complaints.

I think that we need to support whatever decisions Brad makes, even if we do not agree with them. Brad has taken the job that is most thankless and we should support him. If you do not agree with what he does just tell what you think is wrong and not drag it out into a long argument that makes the problem even worse for the community.


+1

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:47 pm 
Master of the Order
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Dracon2 wrote:
First I want to thank Brad for taking on the job that is going to generate the most complaints.

I think that we need to support whatever decisions Brad makes, even if we do not agree with them. Brad has taken the job that is most thankless and we should support him. If you do not agree with what he does just tell what you think is wrong and not drag it out into a long argument that makes the problem even worse for the community.


+1

Any complaints should have been handled privately. I think it's okay to ask questions about decisions that are made, but on something like this where all the responsibility falls on the head of one person because NO ONE and I mean NO ONE wants any part of the process, I recommend a PM to the guy if the comments go beyond, "Why was issue X handled in this way?"

Once a person feels the need to dictate changes to that decision instead of asking for a better understanding, the conversation's tone is altered with that choice as well. Brad's in charge of map choices, and this is how he choose to do it. Sure some of us can disagree with that choice but we still need to respect that it is his to make. Telling him that because someone disagrees vehemently that a different person should be in charge doesn't help matters. All that changes is who has to take the brunt of the anger and hostility when decisions are made.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:15 pm 
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I've got little to add to this discussion from a player's perspective, since I don't play competitively. I therefore have no strong objection with the timing or nature of this map list change. Plus, given that Brad has been given limited help in the past with regard to map playtesting, it doesn't surprise me that map list changes would seem abrupt.

From the point of view of a guy still making maps for this game, though, I have some suggestions and observations that may be relevant in the future. Make of them what you will:

I would suggest that September (or even in August, during the convention itself) would be a great time for a map list update, as it allows newly-revealed maps from the Mystery Map tourney, and other new products revealed at Gen Con, to be put on the map lists as appropriate.

Doing so right after Gen Con (or better still, announcing the new map lists *at* Gen Con) gives people something new to look forward to in the "post-season" months, and gives you a lot more time to playtest the new lists and make any needed changes before Regionals. The artwork for the maps released at Gen Con is typically finished weeks ahead of the show, so it would be entirely possible for some top-tier players to test them out in advance and give their recommendation for list placement.

I've said this before, but will add it again since it's quite relevant: As a guy who has a booth at Gen Con where new maps will be sold, it would be a huge boon to my business to have the new map lists announced at the show, while the most competitive players are right there to buy them. It would serve as useful on-site marketing event, and help me to afford the booth presence at the show.

The benefit applies to those Gen Con players as well: My poster maps are discounted a couple of dollars at the show, and there are no shipping costs for customers who buy there, so having the new map lists announced at the convention gives those players a chance to get them at a lower cost.

On the other hand, if the map list is announced shortly before Gen Con and not updated again for several months, that creates a dead zone in map sales during which players don't know if a new poster will be worth buying for tournament use, and thus have less incentive to invest in the new posters. (It also gives me less incentive to produce maps with competitive SWM play in mind, since I'm not able to market them as such.) While I do consider tournament-level SWM playability when designing new maps, it's difficult to base business decisions and map design choices on that point when new maps are in limbo for half a year before getting listed.

So anyway, there's my two cents.

However the community proceeds from this point on with regards to decisions of this sort, I urge everyone to keep things in perspective and not let the controversy outweigh the fun factor. I'm frankly amazed at how you folks have kept this game alive and given people new reasons to keep playing in an organized fashion, and I'd hate to see a little hiccup in squad planning a few weeks before Gen Con run counter to those efforts.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:21 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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I don't see anyway for Maps released in August to be legal by August. The one time it was done is because the artist gave me a computer image months in advance and let me and a few others play on it and tweak it. It was not well recieved, though I am unsure whether that is playability or after market errors in printing.

I buy all of your maps regardless, though I am behind by 1 or 2 I think, but yeah I know a lot of people hinge on whether it is standard quality or better.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:26 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I don't see anyway for Maps released in August to be legal by August. The one time it was done is because the artist gave me a computer image months in advance and let me and a few others play on it and tweak it. It was not well recieved, though I am unsure whether that is playability or after market errors in printing.

I buy all of your maps regardless, though I am behind by 1 or 2 I think, but yeah I know a lot of people hinge on whether it is standard quality or better.


Well couldn't there could be a compromise where it could be announced which ones could be considered for the Restricted list. That would give myself and others a real incentive to buy and a bit of a preview of what new maps I should go ahead and take a chance to learn or get info on to feedback to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:28 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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audrisampson wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I don't see anyway for Maps released in August to be legal by August. The one time it was done is because the artist gave me a computer image months in advance and let me and a few others play on it and tweak it. It was not well recieved, though I am unsure whether that is playability or after market errors in printing.

I buy all of your maps regardless, though I am behind by 1 or 2 I think, but yeah I know a lot of people hinge on whether it is standard quality or better.


Well couldn't there could be a compromise where it could be announced which ones could be considered for the Restricted list. That would give myself and others a real incentive to buy and a bit of a preview of what new maps I should go ahead and take a chance to learn or get info on to feedback to you.


Well, technically, they're all considered. Sometimes I can tell at a glance, other times, not so much.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:34 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I don't see anyway for Maps released in August to be legal by August. The one time it was done is because the artist gave me a computer image months in advance and let me and a few others play on it and tweak it. It was not well recieved, though I am unsure whether that is playability or after market errors in printing.

I buy all of your maps regardless, though I am behind by 1 or 2 I think, but yeah I know a lot of people hinge on whether it is standard quality or better.


Well couldn't there could be a compromise where it could be announced which ones could be considered for the Restricted list. That would give myself and others a real incentive to buy and a bit of a preview of what new maps I should go ahead and take a chance to learn or get info on to feedback to you.


Well, technically, they're all considered. Sometimes I can tell at a glance, other times, not so much.


Ah Ok, I was just throwing out a compromise :)

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:05 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I don't see anyway for Maps released in August to be legal by August.


What if we set up a SWM Map Review seminar event at Gen Con where the community's cartographers could project their new maps (or even sketches/works-in-progress) on a big screen, or lay them out on tables, and the community could gather to provide feedback, talk about tactical options, discuss problem areas, and make suggestions for these and other future maps? Then, at the end, we collectively put together a tentative new map list that includes the newly-reviewed work, and send people out to playtest it.

I'd be all over something like that; direct face-to-face feedback and brainstorming is very valuable and hard to find in my line of work. Plus, it would give me more incentive to bring maps to the show that are ready for tournament-level evaluation.

There might not be time for that this year, but again: it's something to consider for the future. Honestly, I wish I had thought to suggest this idea years ago...

I'd love to have done more than just socialize a little with Matt and Josh in years past, but held a genuine creative critique session with our customer base.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:32 pm 
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Mapmaker wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I don't see anyway for Maps released in August to be legal by August.


What if we set up a SWM Map Review seminar event at Gen Con where the community's cartographers could project their new maps (or even sketches/works-in-progress) on a big screen, or lay them out on tables, and the community could gather to provide feedback, talk about tactical options, discuss problem areas, and make suggestions for these and other future maps? Then, at the end, we collectively put together a tentative new map list that includes the newly-reviewed work, and send people out to playtest it.

I'd be all over something like that; direct face-to-face feedback and brainstorming is very valuable and hard to find in my line of work. Plus, it would give me more incentive to bring maps to the show that are ready for tournament-level evaluation.

There might not be time for that this year, but again: it's something to consider for the future. Honestly, I wish I had thought to suggest this idea years ago...

I'd love to have done more than just socialize a little with Matt and Josh in years past, but held a genuine creative critique session with our customer base.


Holy cow, this idea is GREAT. I know I would personally LOVE to attend something like this and would give as much good feedback as possible. If you brought something to look at this year, I can't speak for anyone else, but I would do my best to find the time to be there. Schedule it practically whenever other than during the Championship and I'm in. Maybe Sunday morning? Since the Championship is on Friday this year with the finals on Saturday, there are just a few more casual events on Sunday morning, so that might be the best bet for missing conflicts.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:55 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Echo wrote:
Mapmaker wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I don't see anyway for Maps released in August to be legal by August.


What if we set up a SWM Map Review seminar event at Gen Con where the community's cartographers could project their new maps (or even sketches/works-in-progress) on a big screen, or lay them out on tables, and the community could gather to provide feedback, talk about tactical options, discuss problem areas, and make suggestions for these and other future maps? Then, at the end, we collectively put together a tentative new map list that includes the newly-reviewed work, and send people out to playtest it.

I'd be all over something like that; direct face-to-face feedback and brainstorming is very valuable and hard to find in my line of work. Plus, it would give me more incentive to bring maps to the show that are ready for tournament-level evaluation.

There might not be time for that this year, but again: it's something to consider for the future. Honestly, I wish I had thought to suggest this idea years ago...

I'd love to have done more than just socialize a little with Matt and Josh in years past, but held a genuine creative critique session with our customer base.


Holy cow, this idea is GREAT. I know I would personally LOVE to attend something like this and would give as much good feedback as possible. If you brought something to look at this year, I can't speak for anyone else, but I would do my best to find the time to be there. Schedule it practically whenever other than during the Championship and I'm in. Maybe Sunday morning? Since the Championship is on Friday this year with the finals on Saturday, there are just a few more casual events on Sunday morning, so that might be the best bet for missing conflicts.


Sunday would be awesome, but I'd suggest invite only. Echo is one I'd suggest inviting, but he has to cut his hair first. :D :P

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:05 pm 
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I actually got my hair cut just a couple weeks ago, thank you very much. It's similar to how it was at GenCon 2010. I figured maybe my play skill was connected to the length of my hair, so cutting it would help me win the Championship again. :D

(Also, my girlfriend said I looked better with it shorter. :? )

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Echo wrote:
(Also, my girlfriend said I looked better with it shorter. :? )


David's been saying this for years, why are you just now listening to him? :D :P

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