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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:39 pm 
Warmaster
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Look over the regional results. As the regional "season" progressed Bastilla seemed to be more and more marginalized. In final regional in Danville there were 3 and none of them made the top 4 cut. Matter of fact Mandos did with beating 2 of the 3 of them and in the one loss HK did more harm to HannahCannon then Bastilla did.

When the regional season first started I thought Bastilla was going to lead me through 4 regionals because I thought I had a strong chance against any commander effect squad. I learned very quickly that while she looks extremely broken on paper, real life was far from it. You need to prep for her but don't assume she is the be-all/end-all of the format.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:52 pm 
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At this point I think it's more of who makes top 8 than what factions do. Sure I think Sith could make it...if Tim, Bill, Weeks, or someone else that has shown some skill with Sith play that faction. Otherwise I don't think they make it in. Mandos? Sorry nope. Yuuzhan Vong? Will I be there? So no. Just kidding...someone might squeak in there with them...but I doubt it (though would absolutely love to see it!). Seps? Yeah...I think we'll see one. Death shot Naboo..err Republic? Yeah I think we see two. Imps? Yup. I think three. OR? One. NR? I doubt it...I didn't see much of this faction all season. Rebels? I think one makes it in. So...is that 8? If not it's pretty close.

Seps 1
Imps 3
Rebs 1
OR 1
Rep 2

It's a tough call though...as I'm not sure who all will be attending.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:31 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
Look over the regional results. As the regional "season" progressed Bastilla seemed to be more and more marginalized. In final regional in Danville there were 3 and none of them made the top 4 cut. Matter of fact Mandos did with beating 2 of the 3 of them and in the one loss HK did more harm to HannahCannon then Bastilla did.

When the regional season first started I thought Bastilla was going to lead me through 4 regionals because I thought I had a strong chance against any commander effect squad. I learned very quickly that while she looks extremely broken on paper, real life was far from it. You need to prep for her but don't assume she is the be-all/end-all of the format.


And this is why I think there will be a few bast squads and why there will be an overwhelming majority of imps. I still think bast will do little beyond scare people from bringing anything outside imps and auto losing the few unlucky people who run up against it unprepared.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:44 pm 
Warmaster
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Jedi_Master wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
Look over the regional results. As the regional "season" progressed Bastilla seemed to be more and more marginalized. In final regional in Danville there were 3 and none of them made the top 4 cut. Matter of fact Mandos did with beating 2 of the 3 of them and in the one loss HK did more harm to HannahCannon then Bastilla did.

When the regional season first started I thought Bastilla was going to lead me through 4 regionals because I thought I had a strong chance against any commander effect squad. I learned very quickly that while she looks extremely broken on paper, real life was far from it. You need to prep for her but don't assume she is the be-all/end-all of the format.


And this is why I think there will be a few bast squads and why there will be an overwhelming majority of imps. I still think bast will do little beyond scare people from bringing anything outside imps and auto losing the few unlucky people who run up against it unprepared.


I dont think she is going to deter much of anything. She is something people will factor in their playtest but I don't think people are just going to play Imperial because she exist. IF you were right you would have seen much more Imps and other "bastilla" proof squads during the regional season.

When I played Mandos in Owensboro and was going over it for Ben for our regional, the Bastilla matchup was pretty simple.. Bring in two scientist with Jaster then out activate the OR squad and wear her down.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:37 pm 
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Jedi_Master wrote:
And this is why I think there will be a few bast squads and why there will be an overwhelming majority of imps. I still think bast will do little beyond scare people from bringing anything outside imps and auto losing the few unlucky people who run up against it unprepared.


From what I understand, you're saying that it's a rock, paper, scissors situation, but you think that everyone's going to play paper?


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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:48 pm 
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TheHutts wrote:
Jedi_Master wrote:
And this is why I think there will be a few bast squads and why there will be an overwhelming majority of imps. I still think bast will do little beyond scare people from bringing anything outside imps and auto losing the few unlucky people who run up against it unprepared.


From what I understand, you're saying that it's a rock, paper, scissors situation, but you think that everyone's going to play paper?



I just throw fire.

If you can outact Bastilla and be mobile without ce's then you will win. Something as simple as ensuring you have 15+ acts and override is often enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:37 am 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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The +10 damage from Bastila is just as important, in some matchups, as cancelling CEs. Atton and Carth go from very good to world-beaters with that extra damage. Even against Weir, two 40 damage shots are guaranteed to kill a storm commando while two 30 damage shots are not. And my personal experience is that double bubble squads are not the best answer to Bastila anyway. If you have to keep everyone near Pellaeon, either you are giving me a shot at Pellaeon or you are detracting from your own ability to attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:32 pm 
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All this talk of Kaan being broken (he is under-costed), and no mention of Atton Jaq Rand? He's the most ridiculous character created yet.

Double Greater Mobile - OK, so you want to make him awesome.
20 damage base + assassin - Wow! Assassin in in play most of the time, this gut is sick.
60 damage most of the time and easy ways to get him up to 80 in both factions, if not 100. Also keep in mind (Jaq + Gary vs living) +17 attack twice for 40 each (52 pts) is better than 4 +16 attacks at 20 each (Cad bane vs uniques). Same damage output total, but as it was already pointed out, with the meta full of damage reducing abilities (sheilds and the like) less shots for more damage is better. Also - more likely to be attacking a living character than a unique. Oh, and 2 activations is better than 1.
So he is an offensive beast, with built in greater mobile to keep him alive. He's worth 36 points already. Oh wait - he's a pilot so you can also easily and cheaply give him evade and speed 8. Yikes! Then the fact that you can pair him with Revan for the best offensive swap in the game, quick and deadly all in on phase. Jedi mind trick is something that could come quite in handy, especially since it doesn't replace attacks or turn. OK - now here's where it gets so stupid it makes me want to puke. Override? SERIOUSLY!?! WTF!?! So you use a big nasty shooter that in one phase can swap in from across the board, lay down 80-100 damage then LOCK THE DOOR in your face? Why on EARTH was he given overrride? Give him door gimmick, or even advanced door gimmick, but letting one character be your sick offensive punch then lock the door is a mistake that should have ended with ERCs. Oh but wait - we're not done yet. He has avoid defeat. One of the worst abilities ever created. At least with a medical droid you had to keep someone adjacent, and wedge isn't really an offensive threat. But putting it on a main piece, and that piece has FORCE POINTS to reroll!?! STUPID. But it's not like he has easy access to renewal . . . oh wait - 2 easy options under 15 pts. Wow. If someone is rolling hot, they could never die. In MO regionals one guys made 6 Avoid defeat saves in a row. SIX!!! I'm impressed I still won. I hate abilities that let luck so strongly factor into a game. Luck is already innate in a game involving dice, why do we need to amplify it with stupid abilities like reserves, soresu style mastery, vapaad mastery and avoid defeat. So yeah - Jaq is stupid.

That being said (and more on topic) - no Sith squad without him will make the top eight, I'd even say no OR will either, if either faction even makes it. I'd even say that if a Sith squad makes it, it will contain Revan, Jaq, and Kaan - or no Sith will make it.

Vong - nope, sorry. Only Nom + Cad + Yomin + Workers can compete - and vs Lobot you lose. Why? Roran Corrob.

Mandos - nope. No even close. The problem is, and this is not factored into smaller 4 round regionals, 2 pt victories hurt a LOT more in a 6 round championship. Way more than a 4 round regional, and even more than you might think in a larger 5 round regional. Mandos have some tough squads, but they play slow, and have a harder time getting 3 pt victories. If you play Mandos you will not make the top 8 at GenCon - prove me wrong.

Speaking of squads that play slowly - how are you Mr. Weir? Holy cow Storm Commandos are the 2 pt kings. Look at Regional results - apart from Spry's build which has more attacker potential and a speeder variant which is better at 3pt victories but not as good overall, Weir and SCs have a TON of 2 pters racked up. Even their losses are often 2 pts for the opponent. That is annoying! And frankly I think even Spry's version will get at least one 2pter along the way, he just faced a bunch of Melee that had to keep running at him and get shot to bits. I do predict a few imps in the top 8, but more Weir squads will be the gatekeeper as they will HAND OUT 2 pt vicotries. Weir is the bandwagon squad this year, and many don't really know how to run it. Ysalimiri is the great equalizer, and then some.

Seps - yup, lancer is still dangerous. I predict 1 in the top 8. There will be a few droid swarms (IG and A-series) that will do decent, but not make the top 8.

Republic, republic, republic. How annoying of a faction - as if they didn't have enough, they got a ton more this year. Mace squads are all about match-ups and crit timing. One may slip in to the top 8, but more likely one will beat a better player with a better squad with several lucky crits and shake things up. Oh and then the stupid Naboo pilots swarm. Yeah - bad idea for a fig. Agree with the broken assessment. 1 will make the top 8. Thank GOD for Kaan which will help hold them at bay (I laughed with glee as I blew away tons of pilots and they tried to target my other figs and I informed them that they had to target the already dead Kaan!). Oh, and then there is the very little seen so far this year Yodabuck. Still awesome, still dangerous - he will make the top 8. Still think Mean Green Smashing Machine is the best Republic squad out there (Yodabuck, Panaka and Mace).

NR - Maybe 1. Ysalimiri really hurts Mara AND Corran. Big smashy squads can usually take them out, and lots o' guns can find a way if they out-activate and have a movement breaker. But they have enough tricks to maybe slip in there.

and good old Rebels - I think it will be like last year, they still have enough going on that they are a threat, and 1 will slip into the top 8. Hell good old-school 2010 style rebels still have what it takes. Especially since they can out-activate and the mass activation killers are less prevalent.

So - to summarize:

My original tallies added to 9, so to squeeze it down to 8 -

OR - 0
Mandos - 0
Sith - 1
Seps - 1
Republic - 3
Rebels - 1
Imps - 2
NR - 0
Vong - 0

-1 to any faction to let NR slip in.

That's my 2 (ridiculously rambling) cents


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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:59 pm 
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I should also put that this year more than ever before match-ups are EVERYTHING. It is a bit like rock-paper-scissors. Except instead of 3 things there are 8-10. It's happened before where someone slips into, and even does well, in the top 8 - simply based on favorable match-ups. And it is exponentially more-so that way this year.

What so many people don't realize is that regionals and the championship are SO DIFFERENT. Please - take it from me - I think I might (painfully) know this better than anyone.

What you are seeing at Regionals has to be taken with a GIANT grain of salt. So many squads slipped into a top 4 at a regional because the regional was weak, or due to match-ups.

So many regionals had a squad end up in 9th place and get ignored, when it came down to one initiative in the final game and that was the difference between 3rd and 9th place. Yes, it creates that much of a swing. But the more matches you have in a day, the better assessment it is. Adding just 1 more round, much less 2, gives a much better ranking for the top players.

The other factor that will really F things up is 2 point wins. What I mean by this is that there are certain squad types that you HAVE to play slow and careful against, and it will cause YOU to get a 2 point win when you face them. I am confident that I can beat any mando squad, but it may well have to be a 2 pt win if I am unlucky and get paired with one. Same goes for Weir squads. It's frustrating to know that you can beat a squad but it may keep you out of the top 8 because it's a snail squad. I'd much rather face a Mace squad that could get a lucky timed crit and beat me due to it, rather than slog through a match against Super-stealthed Weir or cloaked Mando death-shots. At least vs Mace you know if you win it will be 3 pts.

You have to be able to confidently get 3 pt wins EVERY TIME to make the top 8. Last year we had one (excellent) player slip in with a single 2 pt win, everyone else had all 3 pters.

I really stand by the general squad building guideline that you need a way to kill mass activations. As we have seen this year - activations have changed in some squads, and lower activations can compete, but high activation squads are NOT gone. You have to have a way to deal with them. You need a movement-breaker, a mass activation killer, and a slugger. Can you win games without all three? Yes. Will you make the top 8 at GenCon without all 3? Less likely. If you don't have all 3 of these things in your squad, you'd better know how to play fast and furious to get three pt wins. You'd better know it like the back of your hand and not waste any time.


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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:04 am 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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No way does Yobuck get in the top 8 this year. There are just too many awful matchups. Naboos are an autoloss. Mace is pretty close to an autoloss. Weir is a 50-50 shot at best. Revan squads aren't easy either. Where are the games that Yobuck (relatively) easily wins? Maybe Stealth 'n' Blue and... OR?

There is a reason why no one, repeat no one, has enjoyed very much success with Yobuck this year. I'm honestly confused about how people can keep on insisting that it is still a top tier squad when they are among those who have given it up for better options.

Aside of that, I mostly think you're on point. Actually, I think everyone is giving OR short shrift, too. They at least have a chance against Naboos (which is more than many squads can say!), Weir is not anywhere close to the autoloss that people assume (it really depends on which Weir build), and they have enough mad crazy firepower to kill Mace Windu before he wrecks your entire squad. If he runs in and rolls zero crits, you probably just won the game. I'd say that people were discounting them because they weren't played much in regionals, but there were a ton of OR squads in action this year. The only matchup that I think they really can't handle is Slow Lancer and probably Kaan.

I also think that HK swarm is a really powerful squad in a meta with relatively little Arica/lancer/Yobuck (as this one shows every indication of being). Revan/Kaan squads autolose to it, NABOOS autolose to it, Mace all but autoloses to it. Weir is a tough matchup, and lancer or Arica is pretty much an autoloss, but that's a lot of favorable games.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Do Old Republic squads play fast enough to get 3 point wins? Obviously jester007 managed it at last year's GenCon, but in our local meta I find they rarely manage full wins; maybe that's because more careful, defensive players gravitate towards them.

As the compiler of the Top 4 Regional thread on Bloomilk, I absolutely agree that top 4 is an arbitrary cut-off and that all Regionals are not equally weighted with looking at the overall meta. I'd give a bit more credibility to Regionals where players from other regions are also able to attend, as well as overall size.


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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:40 pm 
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TheHutts wrote:
Do Old Republic squads play fast enough to get 3 point wins? Obviously jester007 managed it at last year's GenCon, but in our local meta I find they rarely manage full wins; maybe that's because more careful, defensive players gravitate towards them.

As the compiler of the Top 4 Regional thread on Bloomilk, I absolutely agree that top 4 is an arbitrary cut-off and that all Regionals are not equally weighted with looking at the overall meta. I'd give a bit more credibility to Regionals where players from other regions are also able to attend, as well as overall size.


It goes back to the player. Playing slow has more to do with the player then the squad.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:42 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
Do Old Republic squads play fast enough to get 3 point wins? Obviously jester007 managed it at last year's GenCon, but in our local meta I find they rarely manage full wins; maybe that's because more careful, defensive players gravitate towards them.

As the compiler of the Top 4 Regional thread on Bloomilk, I absolutely agree that top 4 is an arbitrary cut-off and that all Regionals are not equally weighted with looking at the overall meta. I'd give a bit more credibility to Regionals where players from other regions are also able to attend, as well as overall size.


It goes back to the player. Playing slow has more to do with the player then the squad.


I don't know, I think had you said faction I would agree. There are several squads though that are designed to play slow.

I guess I do agree actually, as even in those slower squads it'ts still a 60/40 split favoring the player.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:47 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Weeks wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
Do Old Republic squads play fast enough to get 3 point wins? Obviously jester007 managed it at last year's GenCon, but in our local meta I find they rarely manage full wins; maybe that's because more careful, defensive players gravitate towards them.

As the compiler of the Top 4 Regional thread on Bloomilk, I absolutely agree that top 4 is an arbitrary cut-off and that all Regionals are not equally weighted with looking at the overall meta. I'd give a bit more credibility to Regionals where players from other regions are also able to attend, as well as overall size.


It goes back to the player. Playing slow has more to do with the player then the squad.


I don't know, I think had you said faction I would agree. There are several squads though that are designed to play slow.

I guess I do agree actually, as even in those slower squads it'ts still a 60/40 split favoring the player.


Right, for the life of me I can't think of any squad that I personally would play slow on purpose. There is very little to gain by playing slow as it also slows down your opponent. Playing slow leads to two point wins and two point wins lead to missing cuts and regretting not playing faster.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:56 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Weeks wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Weeks wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
Do Old Republic squads play fast enough to get 3 point wins? Obviously jester007 managed it at last year's GenCon, but in our local meta I find they rarely manage full wins; maybe that's because more careful, defensive players gravitate towards them.

As the compiler of the Top 4 Regional thread on Bloomilk, I absolutely agree that top 4 is an arbitrary cut-off and that all Regionals are not equally weighted with looking at the overall meta. I'd give a bit more credibility to Regionals where players from other regions are also able to attend, as well as overall size.


It goes back to the player. Playing slow has more to do with the player then the squad.


I don't know, I think had you said faction I would agree. There are several squads though that are designed to play slow.

I guess I do agree actually, as even in those slower squads it'ts still a 60/40 split favoring the player.


Right, for the life of me I can't think of any squad that I personally would play slow on purpose. There is very little to gain by playing slow as it also slows down your opponent. Playing slow leads to two point wins and two point wins lead to missing cuts and regretting not playing faster.



I'm just remembering a game a couple of years back. I can't remember if it was pre or pst 3/2 system but I was judging and a game was going slowly. When I walked ovedr there for my "snapshot" there was a 7 activation squad and a 20 activation squad. Guess who got the slow play warning...

A 20 activation squad can be played quickly, but that's what I had been thinking initially about. It's pretty much still the player...

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:08 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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TheHutts wrote:
Do Old Republic squads play fast enough to get 3 point wins? Obviously jester007 managed it at last year's GenCon, but in our local meta I find they rarely manage full wins; maybe that's because more careful, defensive players gravitate towards them.

As the compiler of the Top 4 Regional thread on Bloomilk, I absolutely agree that top 4 is an arbitrary cut-off and that all Regionals are not equally weighted with looking at the overall meta. I'd give a bit more credibility to Regionals where players from other regions are also able to attend, as well as overall size.


I don't think I have ever gotten a timed win with OR. Unless you're playing something unusual like that squad with Atris, handmaidens, and Bastila, I wouldn't expect them to go slowly. Your damage output is just so high that once you get going, it's either kill or be killed. Defensive players probably want another faction, like one of the ones with activation control. OR has to play aggressively to win consistently!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:20 pm 
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greentime wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
Do Old Republic squads play fast enough to get 3 point wins? Obviously jester007 managed it at last year's GenCon, but in our local meta I find they rarely manage full wins; maybe that's because more careful, defensive players gravitate towards them.

As the compiler of the Top 4 Regional thread on Bloomilk, I absolutely agree that top 4 is an arbitrary cut-off and that all Regionals are not equally weighted with looking at the overall meta. I'd give a bit more credibility to Regionals where players from other regions are also able to attend, as well as overall size.


I don't think I have ever gotten a timed win with OR. Unless you're playing something unusual like that squad with Atris, handmaidens, and Bastila, I wouldn't expect them to go slowly. Your damage output is just so high that once you get going, it's either kill or be killed. Defensive players probably want another faction, like one of the ones with activation control. OR has to play aggressively to win consistently!


I have, it was against a low activation squad who had the beef but was so afraid of my damage output they wouldn't advance. I had gambit, and it was on him but when he was finally forced to it was too late. Honestly, it was a game he should have won as I didn;t get the three point win on slow play because I had zero atatckers left....

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:36 pm 
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greentime wrote:
I don't think I have ever gotten a timed win with OR. Unless you're playing something unusual like that squad with Atris, handmaidens, and Bastila, I wouldn't expect them to go slowly. Your damage output is just so high that once you get going, it's either kill or be killed. Defensive players probably want another faction, like one of the ones with activation control. OR has to play aggressively to win consistently!


That's cool - we do have a bunch of really slow players in our group. I have to play something aggressive if I want to get three point wins consistently.


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