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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:21 pm 
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obikenobi1 wrote:
So in total who comes out on top? I think the logical choice would be the Sith. Its common sense.


Might be logical to you, but in practice it really doesn't work that way.

If its "broke", where's the proof?

You aren't likely to argue me to believing it. Show me the hard core testing, real play situations, and actual tournament wins to prove it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:38 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
obikenobi1 wrote:
So in total who comes out on top? I think the logical choice would be the Sith. Its common sense.


Might be logical to you, but in practice it really doesn't work that way.

If its "broke", where's the proof?

You aren't likely to argue me to believing it. Show me the hard core testing, real play situations, and actual tournament wins to prove it.


As this piece is still relatively new, and hasn't been in the meta as long as other broken peices like Dodonna and Doombot, I don't have much of a case yet to prove it. But that I have seen Kaan showing up in regionals so far and doing well, leads me to beleive it is doing well and that it can do quite well against most other top tier squads. You'd probably tell me to give proof that Poggle the Lesser is broken to. I think the reaction of the community as a whole should be evidence enough as to what needs to be done with that piece. I theorize that it is broke because I see what you get for the cost and the faction it is in. I may be wrong in the long run, since I sincerely hope V-sets correct the other factions weaknesses against this overpowered piece. And as far as testing goes, this peice wasn't tested nearly enough as it should have been. I talked with thereisnotry about him and the Naboo Pilots in a recent game, and we both agreed about these pieces. The reason we have better V-sets in DotF and Vengance are because we had better playtesting and better design. I playtested all the Vong peices in R&R and I'm happy to see how they turned out. During playtesting, I never got to play against Kaan, since to do so would be ridiculous when I played Vong. I play Vong against tough matchups because I want to see how it does against adversity. I'm careful to suggest stats for pieces. I want balanced pieces, not overpowered ones. I think Kaan was a mistake, and I'd suggest recalling him and re-releaseing him in the next set to correct him. Playtest him better! I'm sorry if that offends the designer of this piece, but I'm just speaking what I feel needs to be said about it. I have so many issues with Lord Kaan, and a lot of others do also, so don't think its just me going this line of thought alone. I speak for my entire playgroup and others on bloomilk and this website. So take that how you want to. I give constructive criticism when I feel its deserved.

I'd like to hear from the designers why they felt Kaan should be what he is right now. I'd like to hear about Weir also. I honestly want to understand the reasoning behind them and why they had to be made for their cost. To me right now, I see no reason why the Imperials needed yet another highly competitive peice, when the Rebels and Mando's got nothing. Maybe some of the designers are biased for the Imperials...i don't know. After seeing the V-sets give rise to the Imperial faction, that's the only reason I can think of. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:41 pm 
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First, this is hardly the place to be discussing gripes about V-Set pieces. This is a place to discuss squads and concepts prior to Gencon. If you want to argue about Kaan, then start a new thread.

Second, to set the record straight, I greatly enjoy the vast majority of the V-Set pieces. The whole concept of banning and re-releasing certain pieces is just ludicrous to me. If a piece has been made, then we've gotta find ways to play around it. In a way, the development of Lord Kaan was a good thing, because we still wouldn't have a Tier 1 Regional-Winning Sith squad without him.

Finally, I find 11pt (actually 9pt) Naboo Pilots with Bravado 20 to be far more broken than Lord Kaan. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:54 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:

Finally, I find 11pt (actually 9pt) Naboo Pilots with Bravado 20 to be far more broken than Lord Kaan. :P


+1

But, as Billiv15 would say, where's the proof? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Kaan can be a strong piece in the current meta, so can Poggle and Weir, but the important part of that statement is "can". Part of having a wide open meta where any faction has the potential to be competitive is that many pieces can seem broken or over powered, but every single piece right now that has the potential to be countered by an equally powerful counter. The fact that that statement is true is incredibly important. If Kaan didn't have a counter that worked in the current meta, then he could possibly be over powered, but Ysalamiri, Vong, and droids all stop Thought Bomb, and all 3 a viable options in the meta. All 3 options can be in competitive squads.

We just have to accept that any squad choice right now could result in the potential for a bad match up. So learn your squad, practice well, and hope for luck and/or mistakes made by your opponent if they have the counter to your squad.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:41 pm 
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obikenobi1 wrote:
I'd like to hear from the designers why they felt Kaan should be what he is right now. I'd like to hear about Weir also. I honestly want to understand the reasoning behind them and why they had to be made for their cost. To me right now, I see no reason why the Imperials needed yet another highly competitive peice, when the Rebels and Mando's got nothing. Maybe some of the designers are biased for the Imperials...i don't know. After seeing the V-sets give rise to the Imperial faction, that's the only reason I can think of. :?


Mandos got nothing??? I would really like to counter that discussion. A lower powered Mando squad won a regional. My Mando squad has a top half finish at Owensboro complete with me blowing two matches with boneheaded plays and at 3rd place finish at the Danville regional beating Storm Commandos, Lancers and TWO! Bastilla squads. Jaster and a wide assortment of great non uniques like the CIO really pushed Mandos over the top.

Sure if Kaan goes off in middle of a ton of commander effects its going to stink bad for Rebels and Mandos. Its up to the player to not let that happen. If Kaan single handidly beat these squads and was broke we would have seen more Sith in regionals and well before the call came out that they were the only faction not to win one. You would also see lower level players rocking it and winning events because of it. Since none of that has happened I would assume that it isn't broke.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:29 am 
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audrisampson wrote:
Mandos got nothing??? I would really like to counter that discussion. A lower powered Mando squad won a regional. My Mando squad has a top half finish at Owensboro complete with me blowing two matches with boneheaded plays and at 3rd place finish at the Danville regional beating Storm Commandos, Lancers and TWO! Bastilla squads. Jaster and a wide assortment of great non uniques like the CIO really pushed Mandos over the top.


I don't really see the Mandos breaking into the top 8 at GenCon - they had Jaster and the CIO last GenCon, and the three Mando squads there finished #22, #30, and #39 in a field of 40. I actually agree with obikenobi1 that they missed out in Renegades and Rogues, where a lot of the other factions got some really key pieces. They did get some nice pieces in Vengeance, like the Scientist, Pre Vizsla, and the Death Watch Saboteurs, but I don't think it's enough to push them over the top.

They're good enough to compete at Regional level, but I still regard them as the weakest faction, and I don't think they're capable of taking out a National championship at this stage. I'd love to be proven wrong though.


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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:08 am 
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obikenobi1 wrote:
-Another huge difference between Unleash the Force and Thought Bomb is that Though Bomb can't be canceled. Unleash the Force can. I'd say that proves my point pretty well. Force Absorb/Force Defense mean absolutely nothing against Thought Bomb. And that is a big problem, imo.


That's gonna happen in what, 1% of games? When someone plays Master Thon or Yoda of Dagobah or some other second-rate guy? You're calling a piece broken because a condition that would almost never happen can't happen. I don't buy it.

Kaan does nothing against Vong and nothing against droids. At 36 points he is more expensive than virtually every support piece (which is what he is), so he only gets bravado if he's pounding on a main. He has backlash in a squad with no activation control and very few activations, so you only get it if your opponent gives it to you or if you set it up deliberately (unlike, say, Captain Rex, who gets his four shots no matter what). And you can't really talk about his great defensive ability (which is worse than lightsaber defense) without also mentioning that the regional-winning squads don't give him additional Force points, which means that he can't use it!

Anyway, talking about the Gencon championship meta, the real question for me is will anyone play Skybuck and Solo Charge? Everyone agrees that those squads are good, everyone agrees that they're still competitive... except almost no one played them. At any regional. And the handful of times they were played, they didn't do well! I think I'm going to have to buck the trend and argue that those squads are gone, at least for now. Yobuck is a much worse piece because of the goddamn Naboos and the general trend of playing fewer, stronger pieces. And Solo Charge, despite its many good qualities, just cannot consistently win games against Mace Windu and ysalamiri teams because they take away Mara Jade and/or Anakin. Those squads are such a large part of the meta now that I can't imagine anyone taking straight-up Solo Charge right now.

Mace, Weir, Naboo swarm, Nom Anor swarm, and Bastila are the big ones for me. If you have a plan to beat those squads, you will be well-served.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:14 am 
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TheHutts wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
Mandos got nothing??? I would really like to counter that discussion. A lower powered Mando squad won a regional. My Mando squad has a top half finish at Owensboro complete with me blowing two matches with boneheaded plays and at 3rd place finish at the Danville regional beating Storm Commandos, Lancers and TWO! Bastilla squads. Jaster and a wide assortment of great non uniques like the CIO really pushed Mandos over the top.


I don't really see the Mandos breaking into the top 8 at GenCon - they had Jaster and the CIO last GenCon, and the three Mando squads there finished #22, #30, and #39 in a field of 40. I actually agree with obikenobi1 that they missed out in Renegades and Rogues, where a lot of the other factions got some really key pieces. They did get some nice pieces in Vengeance, like the Scientist, Pre Vizsla, and the Death Watch Saboteurs, but I don't think it's enough to push them over the top.

They're good enough to compete at Regional level, but I still regard them as the weakest faction, and I don't think they're capable of taking out a National championship at this stage. I'd love to be proven wrong though.


Well I guess its a shame that the Mandos have a second rate pilot like myself supporting them and if I were going to the championships there is a good shot I would be rocking them. I have a hunch though they are showing up for one of the events I do on Thursday.

The addition to Mando scientist is huge. It gives you something to combat against the auto loss of Bastilla which was apparent in the fact that HannahCannon played against 3 Bastilla squads in the Danville regional and only lost to one of them. In that game he lost mainly to the fact that a +12 to hit with a scout was not enough to hit a 28 defense mouse droid that his opponent forced him to target. If at any point he could have really had a good chance to target M. Thon or the HK that was causing the havok then I would honestly assume he would have went 3-0 against Bastilla at the event.

@Greentime I totally agree about your assesment of Solo charge. When it became known that NR was the last faction needing a regional win this year I took the chance to play several games with it in playtest. Windu beat the stuffing out of it every time. I think it was 0-3 and each game was clearly a victory for Windu. That is why I didn't take the squad or any form of it to the Danville Regional. Outside of maybe Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi everything in the NR loses to Windu.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:55 am 
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greentime wrote:
Anyway, talking about the Gencon championship meta, the real question for me is will anyone play Skybuck Everyone agrees that those squads are good, everyone agrees that they're still competitive... except almost no one played them. At any regional. And the handful of times they were played, they didn't do well! I think I'm going to have to buck the trend and argue that those squads are gone, at least for now. Yobuck is a much worse piece because of the goddamn Naboos and the general trend of playing fewer, stronger pieces. And Solo Charge, despite its many good qualities, just cannot consistently win games against Mace Windu and ysalamiri teams because they take away Mara Jade and/or Anakin. Those squads are such a large part of the meta now that I can't imagine anyone taking straight-up Solo Charge


I played yodabuck (not a skybuck) at Kokomo and took 8th. If dice would have been kinder to me, it probably would have been a top 4. I was ok with an 8th place finish giving how many mistakes and how lousy I've been playing this year in general and giving the line up/competition at Kokomo regional. Maybe you don't consider that good but I did and was pleased with my play for the day

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:59 am 
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Kaan
Seps-droids odds are useless
Vong-useless
Imp-odds are they will have a counter
Rebels,NR,OR have distruptive to stop the really deep strike. Alot of those squads out act the sith so they can see whats coming.
Republic have the speed to take out kaan before the does anything if you play it right.
Mandos have the damage but yeah they can get hurt by him
Sith have the speed to go at kaan and can spread out.

So really on paper I am just not seeing how he is broken when 1/3 of the squads are useless vs him and another 1/3 has a counter to the speed and can run the MTB to counter Revan. So I guess if your meta is Sith,Mandos,Republic non speed he is broken.

back on topic I think there are a few other squads that will see play that we have not seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:26 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
The addition to Mando scientist is huge. It gives you something to combat against the auto loss of Bastilla which was apparent in the fact that HannahCannon played against 3 Bastilla squads in the Danville regional and only lost to one of them. In that game he lost mainly to the fact that a +12 to hit with a scout was not enough to hit a 28 defense mouse droid that his opponent forced him to target. If at any point he could have really had a good chance to target M. Thon or the HK that was causing the havok then I would honestly assume he would have went 3-0 against Bastilla at the event.

@Greentime I totally agree about your assesment of Solo charge. When it became known that NR was the last faction needing a regional win this year I took the chance to play several games with it in playtest. Windu beat the stuffing out of it every time. I think it was 0-3 and each game was clearly a victory for Windu. That is why I didn't take the squad or any form of it to the Danville Regional. Outside of maybe Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi everything in the NR loses to Windu.


I think Mandos could get round Bastila last year by including Lobot, and bringing in a Czerka if they drew Bastila. The Mandalorian Scientist does make it a bit more efficient though. I don't think Bastila is the biggest problem for Mandos - among other things, I think they're vulnerable to swarms since they've got low hit points and defenses, and no easy access to disruptive. Even with death shot, if you can base a Scout with a lower costing piece, it's a good trade.

The Jaden Korr version of Solo Charge got 2nd in Danville - if there's lots of Mace around in the meta, I think it's a good call as it has a better chance against him with an extra direct damage option. It's still a tough matchup, as Mara does get neutralised, but between Han's shooting, Ganner's Force Push, and Jaden's force powers, I think it has a shot, although Imperial squads with Ysalamari will also cause it problems. So maybe this year's not its year, but I think it could still potentially do well - having sturdy disruptive is a big advantage against a lot of squads. I'm not really a fan of Jaina, even if she has a chance of standing up to Mace - 60 damage out of a 56 point piece doesn't seem like enough - she's tough to kill, but not insurmountable.

I also second Johnny in wondering if there's some new squad out there that no one's seen that will do well - there have been so many good new pieces in the last year, it's quite believable that there are still some good squads that haven't yet been seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:15 am 
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Obviously Kaan could be a bad matchup for Mandos, but you play against him just like you would against a Lancer. Spread things out as much as possible to reduce his effect. Then he can get maybe a couple attackers, or one of the commanders. It's an annoyance, but his effect can be mitigated by altering your strategy against that squad. There is no one perfect dominant squad. Everything has one or two bad matchups, so you have to prepare for those in hopes of giving yourself the opportunity to win them.


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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:41 am 
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TheHutts has a thread on Bloo Milk that has assembled all the top 4 Regional Squads. Here's the link: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default. ... ts&t=10891

For easier reference, here is a basic listing of the types of squads that have made top 4, by faction:

Imperial:
Imperial Echani Handmaidens
Storm Commandos
Scout Trooper on Speederbikes/Storm Commandos
Lord Vader + Jarael Black and Blue
Storm Commandos, Tyber Zann
Celeste Morne, Mitthrawn, Jedi-Sith Clones
Cad Bane, Arica, Mitthrawn
Boba Fett BH, Mitthrawn, Vader LotF

Mandos:
Jaster Mereel with Scouts
Cassus Fett, Pre Vizla, DW Saboteurs
Cassus Fett, Bardan Jusik, Mando Scouts

Old Republic:
Bastila, Kavar, Atton, Carth
Bastila, Exile, Atton, Carth, Pilot helpers
Bastila, Atton, Carth, Diplomat, Watchman
Bastila, Nomi CotF, Atton, Bossk TH
Bastila, Atris, Echani Handmaidens

Republic:
GOWK, Rex, Atin, Fi, Foul
GOWK, Mace, Foul, Dr. Evazan
Mace, General Skywalker, Panaka, Foul
Captain Panaka of Theed, Mon Mothma, Naboo Pilots
Captain Panaka of Theed, Mon Mothma, Naboo Troopers

New Republic:
Corran Horn JM, Dash, R2P0, Pilot helpers
Han, Mara, Ganner, Anakin
Han, Mara, Ganner, Jaden Korr
Corran Horn JM, Cad Bane, R2P0

Vong:
Cad Bane, Nom Anor, lots of Workers
Tsavong Lah, Nen Yim, Jedi Hunters
Da'Gara, Jedi Hunters, Quednak
Shedao Shai, Quednak, Ossus Guardians,

Sith:
Revan, Zannah, Traya, Bandon
Revan, Zannah, Atton
Zannah, Huntress, Atton, Traya
Revan, Atton, Kaan
Revan, Celeste, Rakghouls

Separatists:
Single Lancer, IG-86 x2, Darth Sidious, Poggle with 6 Drones
Hk-47 Assassin Droid, IG-86 x4
Double Lancer

Rebels:
Han Smuggler, Princess Leia, Crix, ERCs, Luke RC
Han STA, Red Squadron Aces

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:26 am 
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Here we go

Top 8 will be

2 Imperial Weir
1 NR Han/Mara
1 Sith
1 Republic Naboo Deathshots
1 OR Bastilla/Jaq + Dudes
1 Sep Lancer
1 Republic Mace

6 factions in

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:37 am 
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I dunno Weeks. Not sure a Lancer can make it. I don't think I will be playing it since my map got taken off the list.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:44 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
I dunno Weeks. Not sure a Lancer can make it. I don't think I will be playing it since my map got taken off the list.



It won two regionals. Its the natural counter to Weir squads, which will be in full force.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:08 pm 
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I say at least 1 Kybuck in the T8 (maybe 2)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:15 am 
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I see the imps dominating this year. Weir is a beast and a half and his SC's can do respectable damage quite often. They also have the most varied commanders and the best mobility and init control. Bluntly, they can be made to cover up most weaknesses. If Bastila JM was not in existence, I could see the spread being a lot wider but the fear of coming against her and getting an almost auto loss is making a lot of people run squads that are not CE heavy, limiting several factions and (as I see it) putting imps in at least 6 of the top 10 spots, if not more. (note seps went from number 1 to last in number of regional wins...they have gotten a TUN of hate in recent sets. Lancers are not tier one anymore, leave the seps alone already.)

Bluntly, the V-sets need to make a solid counter to force abilities. Yeah, great, I can try to attack her to turn it off, or I could just design an imp or vong squad and not worry about it. I'm a gonna go with the imp/vong option, just in case. Maybe we should just bite the bullet and make a Ysalamiri mini with Emplacement already. Yeah, it won't be 100% effective and will have other side effects but with the way the ability works do we have much choice?

As for non imp's in the top 10. Sith will stand a chance solely because of Kaan, I can see a top 10 for them. Vong will be there but I have no idea how good they will do, top 15 maybe? NR will be present but I do not think they will do to great. Republic swap will do good till it auto losses to a bast squad, I can see a top 10 if they are lucky. Bast will be present (note I don't even call it OR, there is no OR unless there is Bast) and will ruin a lot of peoples hopes but probably not make a top 10. Mando's and Rebels? If they show up at all I don't see a strong finish for either.

Now if there were no bast squads, I still see Weir imps dominating. I wouldn't think the imps would show as well, maybe 4 of the top 10. I would think a lot more diversity in squads would appear than current limitations allow for as well. Bast is a problem not solely because she is broken but because she causes people to try to build against her, neglecting several squad ideas for fear of an auto loss. Kinda reminds me of the universe days of thrawn, when talk of banning him was in full swing. Either way, this is going to be a boring national because, even with the "wide open" meta, everybody is going to bring the most solid thing they can think of, Imps. The imp squad designed to best handle other imp squads will likely win.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:28 pm 
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Jedi_Master wrote:
Now if there were no bast squads, I still see Weir imps dominating. I wouldn't think the imps would show as well, maybe 4 of the top 10. I would think a lot more diversity in squads would appear than current limitations allow for as well. Bast is a problem not solely because she is broken but because she causes people to try to build against her, neglecting several squad ideas for fear of an auto loss. Kinda reminds me of the universe days of thrawn, when talk of banning him was in full swing. Either way, this is going to be a boring national because, even with the "wide open" meta, everybody is going to bring the most solid thing they can think of, Imps. The imp squad designed to best handle other imp squads will likely win.


Bastila was great, as she stopped the cheap effective Rebel commanders like Dodonna, Rieekan, and Crix from dominating the game. If there was no Bastila, the game would probably be dominated by Naboo Pilots, Rebel Cannon, Rebel Red Squadron Aces, and a few other CE dominated squads. Plenty of CE based squads did well in Regionals, but Bastila does keep them on the leash a bit.

In my meta, we don't see much Bastila in big tournaments, as often Bastila squads play too slowly to get 3 point wins (especially as we have some legendarily slow players).


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