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 Post subject: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:14 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Okay campers, here we go. In just a few short weeks Gencon will be at hand. Now is the time to start figuring out what to play and what to tech against.

Regional Winners by main pieces. (quick list)

Lobot:10
GOWK:3
Mace Windu:3
Cad Bane:3
Atton Jaq Rand:3
Lancer Droid:2
Admiral Pellaeon:2

So there are your power pieces. Not too shocking that Lobot continues to round up victories. New pieces like Jaq Rand, Mace, and Pellaeon continue to shine as well as WOTC pieces like Lobot, Lancer, and GOWK are all still going strong. So what will the gencon winner be? What will be the squad to look out for? Discuss!

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:41 pm 
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I think Hanny Galactic and the new NR crew (Jaden, R2PO) are going to be dangerous. Frankly I'm surprised it took the NR till Danville to get to the winner circle.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:45 pm 
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I'm not going to be anywhere near GenCon, but this is what I see as the new squads using pieces from the last two sets that have made the biggest splash:

Weir-thering the Storm-- http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/117511/-w ... nal-winner - Imperial

'JAQ'ed up!-- - http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/117445/jaqed-up- - Sith

Roll The Bones - http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/117045/roll-the-bones - Republic

OR Jank - http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/116027/or-jank - Old Republic

Corran and Cad - http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/118206/co ... als--2012- - New Republic - I'm not convinced that it's the best Corran Horn squad out there, but it's the only one that's won a Regional.

Plus Mace squads - there are two versions of Hinkbert's Mace/GOWK squads, plus urbanShmi's Mace in Your Face, that have all been doing well.


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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:35 pm 
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All of the above-mentioned squads are very solid and play really well. I've tried them all, and I think that any could win the big event. I think the real question is about good matchups, bad matchups, and auto-loss matchups.

IMHO, WiertheringTheStorm (or some version of it) has the fewest bad matchups (Naboo Pilots seem to be the worst), and it seems to have answers for pretty much everything else. R4/Wicket to deal with Mace, Ysalamiri to neutralize Kaan and OR and to hinder force-reliant characters (GOWK, Zannah), etc.

Naboo Pilots are also rock-solid, with the only truly bad matchups seeming to be vs Stealth 'n Blue (still powerful but fragile) and NR Disruptive (which has a hard time vs lots of other squads).

I'd love to say that some form of Yobuck is an option, but the Naboos' twin Bravado 20 shots just cripple him, and many of the other squads will be very up-hill battles, though perhaps winnable with some luck.

Mace could be a BMF if he gets a lot of good dice at the right time, but he's got too many absolutely horrible matchups: Naboo Pilots, Weir, shooter-heavy squads, etc.


I have narrowed my list of potential Championship squads down to about 7 or 8 now.... :?

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:50 pm 
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I'm voting Star by Star Strike team if V4 is legal...

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:19 pm 
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And squads without recent pieces that are maybe strong options:

Solo Charge - hasn't been played much, but the variation with Jaden Korr just placed second in Danville.

Old Republic Beef - won last year, although it can arguably be strengthened by including newer OR pieces like Carth, Old Republic Senator

Lots of other Imperial builds - Cad and Arica, Echanis, Scout Trooper on Speeder

Slightly more dubious, but could be there:
Nom Bombs
Rebel Han Cannon
Lancer
Yobuck


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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:05 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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TheHutts wrote:
And squads without recent pieces that are maybe strong options:

Solo Charge - hasn't been played much, but the variation with Jaden Korr just placed second in Danville.

Old Republic Beef - won last year, although it can arguably be strengthened by including newer OR pieces like Carth, Old Republic Senator

Lots of other Imperial builds - Cad and Arica, Echanis, Scout Trooper on Speeder

Slightly more dubious, but could be there:
Nom Bombs
Rebel Han Cannon
Lancer
Yobuck

All true. I'm still working on tweaking the previous top squad concepts.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:12 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
And squads without recent pieces that are maybe strong options:

Solo Charge - hasn't been played much, but the variation with Jaden Korr just placed second in Danville.

Old Republic Beef - won last year, although it can arguably be strengthened by including newer OR pieces like Carth, Old Republic Senator

Lots of other Imperial builds - Cad and Arica, Echanis, Scout Trooper on Speeder

Slightly more dubious, but could be there:
Nom Bombs
Rebel Han Cannon
Lancer
Yobuck

All true. I'm still working on tweaking the previous top squad concepts.


Me too. I already played my modified Han Cannon squad in Kokomo (it didn't do great...), but I've got one or two ideas that I think could be really strong. I am also somewhat fond of the Jaden Korr version of Solo Charge.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:11 am 
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I've been saying this for a while. The V-sets have consistently paved the way for the Imperials to rise to the top. Ysalmiri is such a powerful weapon against force user heavy squads that are seen in the top squads. As thereisnotry stated, the Imperials have the fewest weaknesses. The fact is, Bastilla and Lord Kaan have so weakend every other faction, its left the Imperials to fill the void and rise to the top. Naboo Pilots are very strong also, since Naboo Pilots are simply broken and weren't playtested enough (just like Lord Kaan and Weir as well...oh wait....all of them were from R&R and the accomanied mini-set......hmmm)

So I think the Weir/Storm squad will come in 1st.

Naboo Pilots will come in 2nd.

GenKaan will come in 3rd.

Bastilla will come in 4th.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:53 am 
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I know this discussion is about how the various squads fit into the meta, but more broadly it's about preparation for Gencon.

At the VERY least, as you prepare for a tournament, make sure that you've clearly thought out your attack strategy on your map, even to the point of knowing where all your pieces will usually move for the first round or 2. If you make a plan of attack and know how to execute it well, you're already a step ahead. Obviously, each game is different and you'll need to alter your plans to respond to your opponent...but the point is that you've clearly thought out how you'll handle all the various options. That's part of why it's valuable to win the map roll.

Not only do you need to know YOUR map, but you also need to think about how your squad will play on each of the other legal maps for the tournament. You didn't pick Rancor Pit but your opponent won the map roll? Ok. You're probably going to take the left side for easy gambit? Cool; it's 2nd round and you're encamped in gambit...now what? Do you have a semi-decent strategy for engaging in the next few rounds without getting destroyed? How can you bring the fight to him if you need to? Ideally, you'll want to think along these lines for each of the legal maps if you want to stand a decent chance of success in the tournament.

I still think that choosing a squad--which can handle the meta and which you understand well--is the most important factor when preparing for a tournament. But after that, you simply must learn the intricacies of your squad on all the various maps.

Maybe at some point I'll turn this into an article for Echo's new site (SWMResources.com), but it's enough for now.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:30 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:

I still think that choosing a squad--which can handle the meta and which you understand well--is the most important factor when preparing for a tournament. But after that, you simply must learn the intricacies of your squad on all the various maps.

Maybe at some point I'll turn this into an article for Echo's new site (SWMResources.com), but it's enough for now.


The problem is that there ara a lot of auto-loses now. Its sad that Mando's, Rebel's and the Vong aren't in the discussion. The reason is because they pretty much lose to all the squads currently posted for the current meta of 2012. Mando's literally can't handle Lord Kaan/Revan swap because the Mando's main units are all mid range hp. 50-70hp doesn't cut it against thought bomb. Rebels suffer the same problem as the mando's against the Kaan dilemma. Lord Kaan has hurt this game, and I can't understand why he ever left the design table with the stats he has now. He's too cheap, he can move 6 squares and do 60 damage, and when he dies, he can do at least 40 more damage to everything in 6 squares. And to counter that you need to play: Imperials, Vong, and Seps droids. The fact you can't cancel Thought bomb just really iritates me. Force Light is nothing compared to Thought bomb. I'd have been fine if he was just a walking bomb, but being able to base a beatstick, do 60 damage (80 with Bandon) and then die and do 40 to 80 more damage is way to good for 36 points when you factor in Revan's CE.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:40 am 
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obikenobi1 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:

I still think that choosing a squad--which can handle the meta and which you understand well--is the most important factor when preparing for a tournament. But after that, you simply must learn the intricacies of your squad on all the various maps.

Maybe at some point I'll turn this into an article for Echo's new site (SWMResources.com), but it's enough for now.


The problem is that there ara a lot of auto-loses now. Its sad that Mando's, Rebel's and the Vong aren't in the discussion. The reason is because they pretty much lose to all the squads currently posted for the current meta of 2012. Mando's literally can't handle Lord Kaan/Revan swap because the Mando's main units are all mid range hp. 50-70hp doesn't cut it against thought bomb. Rebels suffer the same problem as the mando's against the Kaan dilemma. Lord Kaan has hurt this game, and I can't understand why he ever left the design table with the stats he has now. He's too cheap, he can move 6 squares and do 60 damage, and when he dies, he can do at least 40 more damage to everything in 6 squares. And to counter that you need to play: Imperials, Vong, and Seps droids. The fact you can't cancel Thought bomb just really iritates me. Force Light is nothing compared to Thought bomb. I'd have been fine if he was just a walking bomb, but being able to base a beatstick, do 60 damage (80 with Bandon) and then die and do 40 to 80 more damage is way to good for 36 points when you factor in Revan's CE.


I'm sorry, what regional(s) are you referring to where Lord Kaan dominated?

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:55 am 
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Wasn't he in both versions of All Jaq'ed up?

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:57 am 
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Yeah, Kaan was in 2 Regional winning squads. Strong, but not really dominating or broken in my opinion. I personally have no problem just moving my dudes away and then killing him from afar. *shrug *

EDIT: This is probably most true for Rebels. You might have to take an AoO from him when you move away, but that's usually about it. It's very easy to just back up and kill him with Rebels. As a very avid Rebel player, I have never worried about Kaan. There are other things keeping Rebels out of the meta.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:27 pm 
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More often then not your opponent will dictate how good of a bomb you get off. The bomb won me 2 of my 7 games in the regional I played it at. In the other games it was less of a factor, because my opponents later figured out to simply spread their dudes out and go for an early kill on Kaan.

Obi, I'm curious what proof you have of this "broken Kaan". I say that because of a situation early last month where you made the same claim on the Gray Jedi's dark temptation. Its probably just a misunderstanding of how Kaan is best used and countered.

Kaan is just a good piece. His power level is at 10 but he isn't an autowin just by playing him. If he was Tim and I wouldn't have been the only ones to win regionals with him.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:29 pm 
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Personally I think Kaan is very map dependant. On a map like Rhen Var I can see him being very devastating because of how tight everything is.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Weeks wrote:

Obi, I'm curious what proof you have of this "broken Kaan". I say that because of a situation early last month where you made the same claim on the Gray Jedi's dark temptation. Its probably just a misunderstanding of how Kaan is best used and countered.



I've talked with numerous people about Lord Kaan, some of them people who go to regionals. He is poorly designed and undercosted, imo, because he can easily take out his points worth in 1 bomb. 80 damage is a lot, especially for factions with few high hp figures. He is broken when compared to other peices available to the faction. The issues I had with Grey Jedi are resolved and I read the rulling by nickname on when you can use Dark Temptation, and I retract my statement of them being broken (although I still think it is a mistake to have a mini that can do 120dmg by itself at a cost of 30pts). But Lord Kaan is broken. He's too good to pass up for his cost. I can see how Rebels may be able to deal somewhat with Kaan, but you need to have Never Tell me the Odds and disruptive that can surivive long enough, and quite frankly, the Han that has it is almost unplayable in a competitive sense. The one big advantage that the Rebels still hold is that they have Dodonna, so they can still work around the sith positioning Kaan without him affecting your stuff yet. so then you can run away your stuff (hopefully your units within his range are not activated). There are a lot of people like myself that don't like Kaan. He should have cost more points, since I look at not only his stats/powers but also the faction he's in and the movement breaker that Revan introduced. I have no problem with any other sith peice, except for Kaan. He was too much for too little, and we will be seeing him more.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2012 Meta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:51 pm 
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See, I only see Kaan being overpowered when combo'ed with Revan. Otherwise, he is pretty susceptable to being shot, and you won't want to trigger it while in with your own guys. And really, how much worse it the Mind Bomb vs Anakin's Unleash the Force or Kyp's Push 5, neither of which are a one off.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:15 pm 
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obikenobi1 wrote:
Weeks wrote:

Obi, I'm curious what proof you have of this "broken Kaan". I say that because of a situation early last month where you made the same claim on the Gray Jedi's dark temptation. Its probably just a misunderstanding of how Kaan is best used and countered.



I've talked with numerous people about Lord Kaan, some of them people who go to regionals. He is poorly designed and undercosted, imo, because he can easily take out his points worth in 1 bomb. 80 damage is a lot, especially for factions with few high hp figures. He is broken when compared to other peices available to the faction. The issues I had with Grey Jedi are resolved and I read the rulling by nickname on when you can use Dark Temptation, and I retract my statement of them being broken (although I still think it is a mistake to have a mini that can do 120dmg by itself at a cost of 30pts). But Lord Kaan is broken. He's too good to pass up for his cost. I can see how Rebels may be able to deal somewhat with Kaan, but you need to have Never Tell me the Odds and disruptive that can surivive long enough, and quite frankly, the Han that has it is almost unplayable in a competitive sense. The one big advantage that the Rebels still hold is that they have Dodonna, so they can still work around the sith positioning Kaan without him affecting your stuff yet. so then you can run away your stuff (hopefully your units within his range are not activated). There are a lot of people like myself that don't like Kaan. He should have cost more points, since I look at not only his stats/powers but also the faction he's in and the movement breaker that Revan introduced. I have no problem with any other sith peice, except for Kaan. He was too much for too little, and we will be seeing him more.


Do you have the same issue with Anakin Solo?

Anakin does pretty much the same thing, and he completely dominated 2 years worth of meta's because of how he could nuke whatever Mara didn't kill. Mara/Ganner/Anakin costs 97, and doesn't care about disruptive. Revan/Kaan/mouse droid (for swapping) costs 101 and gets shut down completely by disruptive. I'd say they are at most even strategies. But the NR is better due to you getting more out of the combo and it being harder to counter.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
obikenobi1 wrote:
Weeks wrote:

Obi, I'm curious what proof you have of this "broken Kaan". I say that because of a situation early last month where you made the same claim on the Gray Jedi's dark temptation. Its probably just a misunderstanding of how Kaan is best used and countered.



I've talked with numerous people about Lord Kaan, some of them people who go to regionals. He is poorly designed and undercosted, imo, because he can easily take out his points worth in 1 bomb. 80 damage is a lot, especially for factions with few high hp figures. He is broken when compared to other peices available to the faction. The issues I had with Grey Jedi are resolved and I read the rulling by nickname on when you can use Dark Temptation, and I retract my statement of them being broken (although I still think it is a mistake to have a mini that can do 120dmg by itself at a cost of 30pts). But Lord Kaan is broken. He's too good to pass up for his cost. I can see how Rebels may be able to deal somewhat with Kaan, but you need to have Never Tell me the Odds and disruptive that can surivive long enough, and quite frankly, the Han that has it is almost unplayable in a competitive sense. The one big advantage that the Rebels still hold is that they have Dodonna, so they can still work around the sith positioning Kaan without him affecting your stuff yet. so then you can run away your stuff (hopefully your units within his range are not activated). There are a lot of people like myself that don't like Kaan. He should have cost more points, since I look at not only his stats/powers but also the faction he's in and the movement breaker that Revan introduced. I have no problem with any other sith peice, except for Kaan. He was too much for too little, and we will be seeing him more.


Do you have the same issue with Anakin Solo?

Anakin does pretty much the same thing, and he completely dominated 2 years worth of meta's because of how he could nuke whatever Mara didn't kill. Mara/Ganner/Anakin costs 97, and doesn't care about disruptive. Revan/Kaan/mouse droid (for swapping) costs 101 and gets shut down completely by disruptive. I'd say they are at most even strategies. But the NR is better due to you getting more out of the combo and it being harder to counter.


Ok, I'm glad you brought this up. Sithborg also mentioned this as well. There is a couple of huge differences between Unleash the Force/ Force Push 5 and Thought Bomb. I'll handle Unleash the Force first:

-Unleash the Force requires you to lose an ally with a force rating. Its not an automatic force power like Thought Bomb is, where you can trigger it anytime you want. I know there is a strategy of killing a Felucian with Momaw Nadon, but that still gives your oppnent points. Now people might say "Well doesn't Kaan give you points also when he dies?" And my answer is yes he does. But he will take out more than his points cost in enemy figures. Anakin Solo only has 50 HP. He's easy to kill with anything that is left over. Beleive me, there will be a lot more stuff left over when you are dealing 30dmg/60dmg respectively, than when you are doing 40dmg/80dmg. So you can give you opponent the 23pts for Anakin after he's done his thing and dies. Kaan has better Hitpoints, better Attack and damage output regardless of Thought Bomb, and better defense.

-Another important thing is that Kaan can trigger Thought Bomb immediatly first round. Anakin can't do Unleash the Force right away. He's got renewal for that, and that is something Kaan should have had (Force Renewal 1 with his starting force at 2 at least imo). Also, as far as triggering Thought Bomb is concerned, I'd say its a huge difference when you can also trigger it when he is about to be defeated, than when it only replaces attacks like Unleash the Force is. Come on man! I'd say that a pretty big difference.

-Another huge difference between Unleash the Force and Thought Bomb is that Though Bomb can't be canceled. Unleash the Force can. I'd say that proves my point pretty well. Force Absorb/Force Defense mean absolutely nothing against Thought Bomb. And that is a big problem, imo.

Now onto what Sithborg had mentioned about Force Push 5:

-Just like what I had said about Anakin being able to use Unleash the Force, Kyp Durron can't use Force Push 5 right away. Yes you can kill your own stuff to get him his renewal first round, but that again gives points to your opponent right away, and kills your activations. Kaan only kills himself to do his thing, and his doing so can take out a lot of the opponents activations in the process. Force Push 5 will only hit 1 target (or adjacent ones if your opponent lets you). Its a powerful force power, but not as powerful as Thought Bomb.

-Just like I said also about Unleash the Force, you can actually cancel Force Push 5. :o
You can't cancel Thought Bomb with Force Defense or Absorb. :x
Nuff said.

-Triggering is also different again. Thoughbomb is when he dies or when he replaces his turn. Force Push 5 is just when he replaces his turn.

Ok, so now that I made my points about the differences, I hope people see that there is really no comparison. Revan is pretty much a mainstay for competitive Sith squads so far (although V-set 4 will change it up a bit from what I've seen in playtesting). So with Revan in most squads, of course some really good options people will include are Atton Jaq Rand and Kaan. Why? Atton is a good shooter and is mobile with overide. Kaan is cheap compared to what he will do. Weeks said a strategy to defeat Though Bomb was to spread your guys out. I have tried this tactic. When I played against a Kaan/Atton Revan swap squad, I spread my guys out in 3 groups. The result. Revan and Kaan hunted down the individual groups. That is why Mando's don't win against Kaan. Hopefully this will change in V-set 4, as I haven't seen most of the peices for the Mando's yet. I have no problems at all facing Force Push 5 or Unleash the Force. At least I can survive it or cancel it. You can levitate Mara in who will do here damage and then die (45pts for your opponent) and then levitate in Anakin who unleashes and then dies (23pts). Or you can just safely lightsaber assault with Revan (or just move 18 squares), Revan swap in Kaan (Revan is safe) and then do Thought Bomb (36pts for your opponent). So in total who comes out on top? I think the logical choice would be the Sith. Its common sense.

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