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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:45 pm 
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This is a judge issue.

Judge should be clear that you have an hour from when he says start, regardless of your state of set up.

It should go

pairings
5 minutes
judge says "go"
1 hour later finish last round

you might start later due to slow arsed set up but you shouldn't start before "go".

The idea of a tournament is to give everyone the same situation. Starting early is an unfair advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:09 pm 
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fingersandteeth wrote:
This is a judge issue.

Judge should be clear that you have an hour from when he says start, regardless of your state of set up.

It should go

pairings
5 minutes
judge says "go"
1 hour later finish last round

you might start later due to slow arsed set up but you shouldn't start before "go".

The idea of a tournament is to give everyone the same situation. Starting early is an unfair advantage.


Agreed.
Slow set up is completely different from starting early and if discussed should be in a different thread. Starting early is wrong. An extra 30-60, or 90 seconds is all it takes in a late game. I recall a game last year, the game was in my control but I was down in points when time was called. 30 more seconds to roll another init (2 seconds even) and forcing one more round was all I needed to finish the game and win.
I can recall other games where I was up in points when time was called and thanked god we didn't get one more init in cause I would have lost.

Extra time no matter how small can be huge, it can mean a win or a loss.

We should not start until judge says go.
No earlier.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:37 pm 
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I agree, it is a judge's issue. He needs to make it 100% clear at the start of the tourney how things are going to run, and then make it very clear when to start playing. Fingers' suggestion makes the most sense to me.

I've found that sometimes at Gencon it can be hard to hear the "Go" announcement because of the high ambient volume of noise from the other games...in that case, the judge needs to repeat himself numerous times and from different locations so that players aren't left asking each other, "Did he say Go?" I know I've had a couple of games where I've lost a couple of minutes because of that... "What? He already said go? Ok, let's hurry up...."

In either case, I always start my own timer once we roll the first init anyway, just so that I'm aware of how much time is left in the match.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Lol at this. I do get the point Tim, I really do. With that said, I'm always going to get my game going (other than the Championship).

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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:12 pm 
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So if a game starts early, that's bad. If a game takes a while to setup and get going that's ok? Example. During one round of the tourney 4 of the 12 games going get started late, all at different times (1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes).

Now, normally a judge would just extend whatever game started late by whatever time late they started. But is a judge going to keep 4 differant times for each late game? No, that would be way too much. So he will probably extend all those games by 5 minutes. How is that any differant then someone starting a game early?

The fact that giving warnings to players that start early is even part of the discussion is insane. Promptness Gould be rewarded not punished. If you setup and start 5 minutes before everyone else then congrats, you earned yourself 5 extra minutes for being prepared.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:12 pm 
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I'll be quite honest, it's only an issue for those that regularly go at or near time. No offense intended Tim and Jake, but nearly all of my games end at least 15 minutes for the end of time.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:05 pm 
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@Bill, I believe most of my games are finished before time as well but in your last statement you said nearly all of your games finished at least 15 min before time was called but what about those ones that don't (however few it might be). That's all it takes sometime is one game and if that one game wins or loses you the game then that not only effects you but also everyone else in the tourny with matchups and SoS all based on a result that should have been different in 1 game. I just want what is fair for everyone no matter how experienced they are or how much of a noob they are.

@Weeks. I understand what you are saying but I don't think that is the issue at all. If someone is setting up slow at table 1 shouldnt give you or anyone the right to start early at a different table. I like the way Les ran it at Kokomo. You have 10 min to set up (I thought it could have been 5 but that's beside the point). After that whistle is blown, you can start. Everyone started at the same time and no issues to be resolved.

Even so I think that slow set up by someone else is a completely different topic than if you or someone else starts early.

I don't want to offend anyone in these posts but I just don't understand how someone else setting up slow gives you or me or anyone the right to start before time. If someone is setting up slow then they should be warned or dealt with accordingly. It's a different issue and weather or not they have been warned or not has nothing to do with someone starting early.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:25 pm 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
@Bill, I believe most of my games are finished before time as well but in your last statement you said nearly all of your games finished at least 15 min before time was called but what about those ones that don't (however few it might be).


I haven't had a game go to time that required even serious counting of the points to determine a winner in several years. I'd say the last one was the final round of the 2008 Champs against James Naegle. One way or the other, my games are nearly always over well before the time limit. There isn't a single game I can remember in 3 years where an extra minute or 3 would have turned the outcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:40 pm 
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So is the real issue someone getting an extra turn?

How about this, if the game goes to time the winner can only get a 2 point victory (no 3 points after the bell has rung).


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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:42 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
sthlrd2 wrote:
@Bill, I believe most of my games are finished before time as well but in your last statement you said nearly all of your games finished at least 15 min before time was called but what about those ones that don't (however few it might be).


I haven't had a game go to time that required even serious counting of the points to determine a winner in several years. I'd say the last one was the final round of the 2008 Champs against James Naegle. One way or the other, my games are nearly always over well before the time limit. There isn't a single game I can remember in 3 years where an extra minute or 3 would have turned the outcome.


Yeah, my one timed win at Kokomo it was obvious I won, I just wasn't fast enough killing guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:13 pm 
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From a different, unrelated thread. This belongs here.

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
LESHIPPY wrote:

So here is different problem that I faced as a judge. At the beginning of the day I announced that once everyone was seated i would start a 10 minute time giving everyone the similar amount of time to set up before we started. After the 10 minutes the round would start. I feel that Tim brings up a good point on this issue and I know that many times I have needed one more round to win, or that one more round would have changed the outcome. So this is why I decided to do this.



Good. I feel like this fits my point about each judge running things differently. I don't like the idea of adding 40-50 minutes to a tournament and will generally call time when about 2/3 of the players are set. Virtually, no one has time to start early at this point.

You had clear reasons for doing it differently, and I want that to continue.

LESHIPPY wrote:
In round 5 Eric (Engineer) and Graham (Greentime) decided to ignore this for what ever reason. I told them to stop. They continued. Then I had to sternly tell them to stop and got some body language and facial experssions that was telling me they thought this was stupid. To but this into context just about all of Eric's game through out the day had went to time. I am not sure about Grahm's. But I would have expected that experienced gamers wouldn't have to be told twice.


I count two warnings, plus you had clearly stated your intent prior to the tournament starting. You had grounds to take further measures, whether that be DQ, or simply deducting the 3 to a two (unless of course it ended 20 minutes early or so).

I get that people are on different sides of that argument, but you are the judge and in the end to fairly satisfy both parties in that debate, you MUST BE respected.


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 Post subject: Re: Starting a skirmish before judge has started the timer.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:09 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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Also from the other thread:

LESHIPPY wrote:
So here is different problem that I faced as a judge. At the beginning of the day I announced that once everyone was seated i would start a 10 minute time giving everyone the similar amount of time to set up before we started. After the 10 minutes the round would start. I feel that Tim brings up a good point on this issue and I know that many times I have needed one more round to win, or that one more round would have changed the outcome. So this is why I decided to do this.

In round 5 Eric (Engineer) and Graham (Greentime) decided to ignore this for what ever reason. I told them to stop. They continued. Then I had to sternly tell them to stop and got some body language and facial experssions that was telling me they thought this was stupid. To but this into context just about all of Eric's game through out the day had went to time. I am not sure about Grahm's. But I would have expected that experienced gamers wouldn't have to be told twice.

Sorry about that. We were being morons. Your point is well taken and I will strive to set a better example in the future.

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