logo

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:19 am 
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:17 am
Posts: 2931
Mace on a team with general skywalker steps adjacent to a character with Jedi reflexes. Jedi reflexes takes the AoO and hits, mace ripostes back. The question is if mace gets momentum on that attack. The judge ruled it only if mace declared him ending his movement there. I was ok with that but the more and more I thought about it, the more and more I thought it might be incorrect. If you step adjacent and the Jedi reflexes atk happans while you are entering the square than mace might declare he is going to end his move there but never actually ended yet.
Just following the steps
1) mace steps into the square
2) as mace is moving into the square Jedi reflexes occur
3) mace ripostes
4) movement finally ends and does his normal attacks

Don't you have to resolve everything first before mace can actually end his movement.

And if it's a simultaneous effect then wouldn't that fall to the Jedi reflexes character
If Jedi reflexes atks and hits, if the simultaneous effect falls to mace then he declered his ending movement then isn't it to late to declear riposte?

Am I wrong but it seems to me that if you go through and finish step by step then mace would not get momentum on that atk.

Just so were all clear, this would have had no influence on the outcome of the game whatsoever.
This was just me thinking more about the game and everything that occurred and if we played everything right. My mind got stuck on this instance as Jedi reflexes occurrurs while you are moving into the square.

_________________
"But one thing I have learned in this process is that flavor can't override the good of the game."
-urbanshmi2-


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:25 am 
Warmaster
Warmaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:18 pm
Posts: 559
According to what I know (which isn't a lot :P) jedi reflexes says as they move and skywalkers CE says when they end their move. As such, mace has not ended his move when the attack is made, so no momentum.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:01 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
How would you treat it if it was a normal attack of opportunity (meaning you were already adjacent and started to move past the character)? The answer to this question and to your question should be uniform.

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:12 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:57 pm
Posts: 3481
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
How would you treat it if it was a normal attack of opportunity (meaning you were already adjacent and started to move past the character)? The answer to this question and to your question should be uniform.


Not necessarily. A normal AoO is very specifically done BEFORE you move AND while you're moving. Jedi Reflexes is done when you enter the square.

I think that you would get Momentum if you've already declared that space as your ending space. My reasoning is that everyone knows that you can get Momentum on Galloping Attack when you end your movement, and Galloping Attack says "As this character moves...". So you obviously technically "end" before you get your final Galloping Attack, and I think you would technically "end" when you triggered Jedi Reflexes also (obviously if you've declared that as your ending space).

They might actually work slightly differently so I might be wrong, but it seems to be similar to this. Good question, though.

_________________
"An elegant, easy-to-understand concept or mechanic that accomplishes 95% of what you want is much better than a clunky, obtuse mechanic that gets you 100%" - Rob Daviau

"You can't per aspera ad astra unless there's some aspera in front of your astra. And that means sometimes the aspera gets you." - Donald X. Vaccarino


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:57 pm 
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:17 am
Posts: 2931
@Daniel - I didn't think of it in terms of galloping atk, and an interesting way to look at it but I think it would be different because as far as I know Jedi reflexes always took place while you were entering the square but before you actually got there.

Let's try a different point of view - if kybuck with 30 hp left and corran with 30 hp left. Kybuck wants to end his move adjacent to corran to kill him with a momentum induced gallop. But corran gets his opportunist Jedi reflexes and kybuck would never make it there.

From your insight, it's sounds like it would be simultaneous effects and since kybuck is the acting player that he would get to atk and kill corran before the Jedi reflexes atk. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that Jedi reflexes interrupts the turn of events and atks before the character ends his move.

I didnt think it would be this complicated but curious to see what the final ruling is.

_________________
"But one thing I have learned in this process is that flavor can't override the good of the game."
-urbanshmi2-


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:11 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:45 pm
Posts: 3886
The AoO for when they enter a space happens when they have fully entered the space. Thus, just like with Gallopping Attack and General Skywalker, if they chose that as their ending spot, Mace would be able to get Momentum for the Ripostes.

As for your other Gallopping Attack vs Jedi Reflexes example, the Gallopping Attacks and Jedi Reflexes AoO would be simultaneous. Don't mistake the ruling about a normal AoO with the ability to make an AoO when a figure enters a square.

_________________
Bloomilk Ambassador


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:14 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:57 pm
Posts: 3481
sthlrd2 wrote:
as far as I know Jedi reflexes always took place while you were entering the square but before you actually got there.


I don't think this is true, but I could be wrong. Regular AoOs DO happen in that way (before you enter the square you're moving into), but Jedi Reflexes is different. Jedi Reflexes allows AoOS "...against an enemy character that moves into or out of an adjacent square". I think you have to actually move into the square to get an AoO from Jedi Reflexes.


Actually, this follows the precedent for Self Destruct, which was answered in the DotF FAQ:

Quote:
Q: When exactly do you make an attack of opportunity on a character moving into an adjacent square if it matters for something like Self-Destruct?
A: The attack is made immediately after entering the square.


EDIT: Ninja'd by Scott!

_________________
"An elegant, easy-to-understand concept or mechanic that accomplishes 95% of what you want is much better than a clunky, obtuse mechanic that gets you 100%" - Rob Daviau

"You can't per aspera ad astra unless there's some aspera in front of your astra. And that means sometimes the aspera gets you." - Donald X. Vaccarino


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:24 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:00 pm
Posts: 6547
Location: Southern IL
Why is it one way for leaving an adjacent square, and another for entering?

The definition of AoO specifically says "pause the movement and make the attack".

Quote:
Attack of Opportunity
Timing: A character makes an attack of opportunity in response to an enemy’s movement. The attack takes place when the enemy is about to leave the adjacent square, but before it actually does. Pause the movement and make the attack; if the enemy is not defeated, it continues moving.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:45 pm
Posts: 3886
Because Jedi Reflexes messes around with the timing of a normal AoO.

Plain and simple, Jedi Reflexes simpley won't work otherwise. They can't make a Melee Attack if the enemy doesn't enter a square adjacent. To allow that, would cause a bigger rules mess than I already have to deal with in terms of Strafe.

_________________
Bloomilk Ambassador


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:47 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:00 pm
Posts: 6547
Location: Southern IL
Sithborg wrote:
Because Jedi Reflexes messes around with the timing of a normal AoO.

Plain and simple, Jedi Reflexes simpley won't work otherwise. They can't make a Melee Attack if the enemy doesn't enter a square adjacent. To allow that, would cause a bigger rules mess than I already have to deal with in terms of Strafe.


Ah right, melee...duh. :P
I got hung up thinking about the strafe discussion, forgetting that the strafer was already adjacent in that situation.

Nevermind :D


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:56 pm 
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:17 am
Posts: 2931
In the terms of kybuck or anyone for that matter that has the chance to kill corran or the seer or nomi, who is the acting character the person moving in to make the kill or the person making the AoO? It seems to me that kybuck or whoever would get the atk first. which means that a 60 pnt corran horn is completely hosed by a Naboo pilot. If the pilot is the acting character then I can tow run up 8 to base and atk corran putting 80 on him then he gets the AoO and kills the pilot who puts on another 80 with death shot and kills corran. You just traded a 9 pnt piece for a 60. If this is the way it works then I won't be playing corran again or anyone else with Jedi reflexes as they are just not that good and Jedi reflexes is more negative ability than positive. I will never hesitate to base a character with Jedi reflexes again.

Along those same lines if a 20 hp kybuck is based to someone and I want to move away and use gallop, then why can I not use gallop first to kill him before the AoO.

It just seems that there are a lot of contradicting things happening all at once.

_________________
"But one thing I have learned in this process is that flavor can't override the good of the game."
-urbanshmi2-


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:20 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:45 pm
Posts: 3886
sthlrd2 wrote:
In the terms of kybuck or anyone for that matter that has the chance to kill corran or the seer or nomi, who is the acting character the person moving in to make the kill or the person making the AoO? It seems to me that kybuck or whoever would get the atk first. which means that a 60 pnt corran horn is completely hosed by a Naboo pilot. If the pilot is the acting character then I can tow run up 8 to base and atk corran putting 80 on him then he gets the AoO and kills the pilot who puts on another 80 with death shot and kills corran. You just traded a 9 pnt piece for a 60. If this is the way it works then I won't be playing corran again or anyone else with Jedi reflexes as they are just not that good and Jedi reflexes is more negative ability than positive. I will never hesitate to base a character with Jedi reflexes again.

Along those same lines if a 20 hp kybuck is based to someone and I want to move away and use gallop, then why can I not use gallop first to kill him before the AoO.

It just seems that there are a lot of contradicting things happening all at once.


Okay, you are totalling misreading the timing here. The "entering" AoO of Jedi Reflexes has different timing than your standard AoO. Your situation does not work, because last I checked the Pilot does not have Gallopping Attack.

Here is what happens in your situation. The pilot moves into the square, resolve stuff that involves them moving into a square (ie Jedi Reflexes and Mines). Then they can attack. So the AoO would happen before the Pilot makes his attack, which means he can die, thus get off his deathshot.

You can't use Gallopping Attack before you move, because it happens when you enter a square. You can't move 0 squares. Which is where the timing comes from. And why the acting player (the person initiating the action that triggers the response, or who moved the piece), can choose whether Gallopping Attack or the Jedi Reflexes "entering" AoO to happen first. So yes, it isn't that great against Gallopping Attack, but normal figures can't make their normal attacks before the "entering" AoO, because you have to resolve the effects of entering the square first. Treat it like Mines.

_________________
Bloomilk Ambassador


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:40 pm 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
Sithborg wrote:
You can't use Gallopping Attack before you move, because it happens when you enter a square. You can't move 0 squares. Which is where the timing comes from. And why the acting player (the person initiating the action that triggers the response, or who moved the piece), can choose whether Gallopping Attack or the Jedi Reflexes "entering" AoO to happen first.


Posting for clarification and in response to an edited post; but doesn't this contradict what you stated in the Strafe thread? Or do the attacks from Gallop and Strafe occur at different times?

I really hate that we are starting to get such precise timings into movements.

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:42 pm 
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:17 am
Posts: 2931
Ok so a galloping kybuck can end his move and take his galloping atk with momentum and deal 30 to corran before the Jedi reflexes AoO. If that happans to kill him well then corran is just Sool or would he still get it kind of like a djem so after death?

And just to see if I understand this correctly. Kybuck moves only 10 galloping and ends his move adjacent to corran. Kybuck will get his gallop with momentum, then corran will get the Jedi reflexes AoO, then kybuck will get his regular atk with momentum correct?

You would move in, resolve any simultaneous effects, in this case gallop with momentum, then the Jedi reflexes AoO, then atk. So also following this thought, if a character with mines has 30 hp left i can end my move and gallop with momentum to kill him before I have to make a mines save correct, thus never having to make a mine save correct?

_________________
"But one thing I have learned in this process is that flavor can't override the good of the game."
-urbanshmi2-


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:46 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:31 pm
Posts: 3575
Location: Cincinnati, OH
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I really hate that we are starting to get such precise timings into movements.

I agree, it's getting very confusing. We just simply need a list of all these precise timings...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:17 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:00 pm
Posts: 6547
Location: Southern IL
jedispyder wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I really hate that we are starting to get such precise timings into movements.

I agree, it's getting very confusing. We just simply need a list of all these precise timings...

Maybe it would be simpler to just explicitly errata the way that J/FA Reflexes interact with certain things into the glossary. No parsing the rules to figure it out. It works that way because it says so right there in print.

If it matches intent, just say that once you enter that square, that attack will go off barring it being countered by abilities/powers that cancel or prevent attacks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: SkyMace vs Jedi reflexes
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:24 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:45 pm
Posts: 3886
jedispyder wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I really hate that we are starting to get such precise timings into movements.

I agree, it's getting very confusing. We just simply need a list of all these precise timings...


You and me both. Thus the need for an expanded FAQ. It is on my list of things to add.

But to make things clear, the Strafe situation and this situation is different. The Strafe situation is dealing with LEAVING a space, this situation is dealing with ENTERING a space.

I can gaurentee you that my rulings on this won't change until I get the new FAQ done, if they do.

_________________
Bloomilk Ambassador


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights style by Scott Stubblefield