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 Post subject: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Just a for-fun comparison.

IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike

Base Stats:
Cost: Lancer 31 (30 with Gha). Speeder - 21. Winner: Speeder
Hit Points: Lancer - 50. Speeder - 30. Winner: Lancer
Defense: Lancer - 17. Speeder - 17. Winner: Draw
Attack: Lancer - 10. Speeder - 5. Winner: Lancer
Damage: Lancer - 20. Speeder - 20. Winner: Draw
Speed (without attacking): Lancer - 24. Speeder - 24 (accelerate). Winner: Draw
Speed (with attacking): Lancer - 24 (strafe), 12 (strafe + attack). Speeder - 12 (strafe), 6 (strafe + attack). Winner: Lancer
Ranged Attack: Lancer - Melee. Speeder - Non-Melee. Winner: Speeder
Flight: Lancer - Yes. Speeder - Yes. Winner: Draw
Base Size: Lancer - Large. Speeder - Large. Winner: Draw

Commander effects/special abilities to boost them:
Gain Twin: Lancer - Grievous DAC (boardwide), Whorm (within 6). Speeder - Weir (boardwide). Winner: Speeder
Boost attack: Lancer - BD Commander (SA) +4 and (multiple) Grievous +4 or or OOM-9 +3. Speeder - Thrawn +3, and GARY, Piett or Mitthrawn +4. Winner: Lancer
Boost Defense: Lancer - Grievous DAC +4 or OOM-9 +3. Speeder - Thrawn, +3, Vader IC +6, Felucian Stormtrooper Officer (advantageous cover). Winner: Net Speeder, but realistically Lancer
Boost Damage: Lancer - BD Sergeant (within 6 SA), BD Lieutenant (within 6 CE). Speeder - Piett/Mitthrawn and/or Gary (boardwide with mas), Nyna (boardwide), Stormtrooper Commander (given adj, keeps it for a round). Winner: Speeder
Use a FP: Lancer - Never. Speeder - Rare but possible. Winner: Speeder
Movement Breakers: Lancer - Sidious (FP). Speeder - Thrawn (CE). Winner: Lancer

Reprisal:
Immune to critical hits/poison/pheromones: Lancer - Yes. Speeder - No. Winner: Lancer
Gun by ion gun: Lancer - Yes. Speeder - No. Winner: Speeder
Hurt by attacking: Lancer - Riposte, Djem-So, Zannah, Demagol, Self Destruct, Death-shots. Speeder - Reflect (rare), Zannah, Demagol, Self Destruct, Death-shots. Winner: Speeder
Strafer getting "trapped" in enemy territory: Lancer - Not without intenton. Speeder - through ABM, disruptive or distraction - yes. Winner: Lancer

Support:
Activation Control: Lancer - San Hill, Captain Mar Tuuk. Speeder - Admiral Ozzel, GM Tarkin (and Pellaeon to customize). Winner: Speeder
Initiative Control: Lancer - MTB only option. Speeder - Thrawn and/or MTB. Winner: Speeder.
Heal/Repair possibilities: Lancer - Gha Gnackt. Speeder - Nothing realistically. Winner: Lancer
Main backup attack figures: Lancer - IG-86s, A-Series Assassin droids. Speeder - Storm Commandos. Winner: Draw (debatable)
Commanders pulling weight after strafer is dead: Lancer - Grievous DAC - eh, Whorm - not much, sidious - eh. Speeder: Weir - cannon. Winner: Speeder
Boost to the Commanders: Lancer - Not really. Speeder - Tarkin IG. Winner: Speeder
Hurt by ABM, disruptive or distraction: Lancer - Movement and +4 from BDO - no, twin yes. Speeder - Yes, big time. Winner: Lancer
Access to Ysalimiri: Lancer - no. Speeder - Yes (x2). Winner: Speeder (makes up some ground from the previous category.)
Activation Count: Lancer - Can be over 20, usually 12-18 . Speeder - 10-16. Winner: Lancer

Overall winner: Inconclusive


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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Regional wins

Lancer:
7 =
2 urbanjedi double lancer
3 timmerb123 single
2 greentime single

Speeder:
0
For now anyway.


That stat is a bit unfair Lancer has been playable since it's inception. Speeder has only become playable in the last year.

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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
Regional wins

Lancer:
7 =
2 urbanjedi double lancer
3 timmerb123 single
2 greentime single

Speeder:
0
For now anyway.


That stat is a bit unfair Lancer has been playable since it's inception. Speeder has only become playable in the last year.


Small correction:
Lancer:
7 =
2 urbanjedi double lancer
1 timmerb123 single
1 timmerb123 single exact copy run by darthmaim in CA
1 timmerb123 double (with san) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/105706/Edit
2 greentime single


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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Oh - and let us not forget:

9th place GenCon Championship finishes: Lancer - TWO!


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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:40 pm 
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This is probably the worst possible way to compare pieces, because you aren't weighting anything. Yeah, the Speeder has slightly better damage boosting options, but that is slight. The Lancer having +10 base Attack instead of +5 base Attack is a huge difference, though. The fact that the speeder can move 24 squares and strafe everything while the Speeder only moves half that with strafing is even bigger! That's worth like 3 times as much as the Speeder's slightly better access to damage boosters. The fact that Lancer gets only slightly hurt by Disruptive while the Speeder gets absolutely wrecked by it is, again, huge. Then there's the fact that the Speeder just works well in far less squads than the Lancer can work well in, mostly because the Lancer is a much better piece on its own than the Speeder is. And "Access to Ysalimiri"? What a one-sided category. Why not "Access to Pawn of the Dark Side"? Yeah, you mention Sidious as a movement breaker, but it's much more than a movement breaker, it's a whole other turn. That's a pretty big deal. What about "Access to being in a squad with bombs"? Seps have Poggle Bombs, Imperials have nothing to compare.

I know you really like the Speeder, and in the right squad I'll even give you that it's a solid piece, but this fails to be any kind of meaningful comparison. If you want to compare them, make a list of squads with a Lancer in it, then make a list of squads with the Speeder in it, and compare the squads.

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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:56 pm 
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Couple small nitpicky points, not much to add really:

In the Access to Twin category, it should either be a Draw or Lancer, rather than Speeder.

Imperials do technically have access to a much crappier version of Poggle Bombs as do all factions in the form of Uggie Bombs.


The Speeder does have access to Pawn of the Darkside if it is in a Sith squad.

Also in the Reprisal category you overlooked Jedi Reflexes/Force Attuned Reflexes/Indiscriminate

**EDIT**Oh and come on be fair the Speeder can have the Medical Droid in it's squad, not any more unlikely than having a Speeder in the squad**END EDIT**

********************************************

I am truly amazed that this is even a debate, you have to be an extremely good player to effectively use either of these peices, but after all these years having the Speeder anywhere near the top is as ludicrous as when RS Jabba made a Regional top four last year.

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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Well Tim is an extremly good player, his accomplishments should speak for themselves. And with me having the good fortune (or misfortune) of playing Tim a lot, I've seen just how good speeders can be in the hands of Tim. I do believe that the lancer is still better so don't take this as a speeder is the new meta opinion. But I also think its wrong to say that they don't belong anywhere near the top. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tim wins a couple regionals this year with speeders he already has a third at HoF packed Mi regional.

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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:05 am 
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My verdict is that the lancer is between 500% and 1000% better than the speeder.

The lancer is an excellent piece on its own, that becomes amazing with the addition of relatively cheap boosters (20 points for Whorm, 8 for a BDO). The speeder is a godawful piece on its own, which becomes pretty good with the addition of huge, squad-warping amounts of tech (Weir, Old Thrawn, and Piett for 85 points in all).

And yes, many of these categories are ridiculous. "Boost to the commanders"?? Commanders pulling weight? Uh, Whorm gives twin to my whole squad, not just the lancer. The BDO boosts all my droids, not just the lancer. By comparison, Weir only benefits the speeders and storm commandos; Piett benefits nobody but the speeder. And why does Weir earn "cannon" status and Sidious gets a "eh" when pawning an IG-86 gets you the exact same thing, except with movement breaking mixed in?

Your "initiative control" category is also fatally flawed, as you should know, because you cannot bring in the MTB against lancer squads, but they will gleefully bring it against you Imperials or Sith. You also seem to have forgotten YOUR OWN SQUAD that used Nute Gunray to choose San Hill on a game-to-game basis, pretty much exactly the same as Pellaeon.

This is all pretty ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:10 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Just a for-fun comparison.



Am I the I only one who knows how to read.

You guys keep talking about how much better the lancer is because it can strafe 24, and strafe 12 and atk and that is so huge compared to the speeder. Well it's also huge that I can strafe and twin shot from across the board with the speeder. Which the lancer can not because it's melee. A ton of factors come into play and you guys are not even looking at the speeders strong points, you are only looking at it in a lancer perspective, but what's even worse is that you don't know how to read.
The first thing Tim said in this post is "just for fun comparison"
So back off his case.

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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:49 pm 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
The first thing Tim said in this post is "just for fun comparison"


My post was just for fun, too. After all, we're talking about a game.

As Daniel said, comparing squads makes a heck of a lot more sense than comparing two pieces, especially two pieces in two different factions that both kind of require boosts in order to be worth playing. Especially when you're looking at one piece that tends to be the center of its squad versus another piece that isn't quite. It's really quite difficult to reconcile that. Which is better, GOWK or Atton Rand? How do you even begin to compare them? In a way, "inconclusive" is the best way to put it. I'd give the same answer to GOWK versus Atton. It's inconclusive - what are you trying to do, exactly? If your first requirement is "play an OR squad," then Atton beats GOWK all hollow. If your requirement is "Get shot dozens of times and possibly not die," then GOWK would be your man.

We're doing exactly what Tim presumably wanted when he posted this, thinking and talking about his ideas. No need to get upset.

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Last edited by greentime on Sun May 06, 2012 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:51 pm 
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I for see Tim beating some people down with these speeders and a lot of people's tone will change.
Maybe another Tim V. Graham battle at Gencon to answer it once and for all lol.


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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:00 pm 
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greentime wrote:
sthlrd2 wrote:
The first thing Tim said in this post is "just for fun comparison"


My post was just for fun, too. After all, we're talking about a game.

As Daniel said, comparing squads makes a heck of a lot more sense than comparing two pieces, especially two pieces in two different factions that both kind of require boosts in order to be worth playing. Especially when you're looking at one piece that tends to be the center of its squad versus another piece that isn't quite. It's really quite difficult to reconcile that. Which is better, GOWK or Atton Rand? How do you even begin to compare them? In a way, "inconclusive" is the best way to put it. I'd give the same answer to GOWK versus Atton. It's inconclusive - what are you trying to do, exactly? If your first requirement is "play an OR squad," then Atton beats GOWK all hollow. If your requirement is "Get shot dozens of times and possibly not die," then GOWK would be your man.

We're doing exactly what Tim presumably wanted when he posted this, thinking and talking about his ideas. No need to get upset.



I can except that, and is a fair way to put it.

I have not got to play minis in a while and in my wife's own words, "You really need to get out and play some minis, cause your going through serious minis withdrawal".

If I sounded pissed, then I'm guessing that is why.

Who's better at playing Guitar? Jeff Beck or Jimi Hendrix? Personally I would say Jeff Beck, but that is coming from a person who doesn't play guitar and has seen Jeff Beck play. If you ask my brother who play's guitar, drums, keyboard, bass and makes music, he will tell you it's impossible to compare the two and if you try you won't get a true result, it will always be inconclusive.

Now this is getting way off topic, I didn't get that intent from your other posts but can completely accept that answer and believe that is the most fair way to express it.

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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Wow - this has gotten some heated responses.

Calm down folks, calm down.

It was indeed supposed to be "just for fun".

I think some of you did miss the point of this thread.


I'll respond to your posts as they came.


R5Don4 wrote:
In the Access to Twin category, it should either be a Draw or Lancer, rather than Speeder.


28 pts for boardwide twin vs 57 pts. Afraid I gotta go with Imps on this one

R5Don4 wrote:
Also in the Reprisal category you overlooked Jedi Reflexes/Force Attuned Reflexes/Indiscriminate


Same either way for JR and FAR - might as well not add another draw category.

What does indiscriminate have to do with anything?

R5Don4 wrote:
The Speeder does have access to Pawn of the Darkside if it is in a Sith squad.


Yeah - but I left it out because it's not very realistic, Sith doesn't have Weir.

R5Don4 wrote:

**EDIT**Oh and come on be fair the Speeder can have the Medical Droid in it's squad, not any more unlikely than having a Speeder in the squad**END EDIT**



My point was whether a Lancer squad is more likely to have Gha Gnackt or a speeder squad is more likely to have a medical droid. By far - the lancer squad is more likely to have Gha.

R5Don4 wrote:
you have to be an extremely good player to effectively use either of these peices


Thank you


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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Doesn't Indiscriminate let you attack characters with Flight?

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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:10 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I think some of you did miss the point of this thread.


Was the point not for you to share your list of comparisons between the two pieces and for the rest of us to discuss that list?

Obviously it was just for fun; like Graham said, it's about a game. I don't think anyone is (or should be, if they are) taking this super seriously.

I just think that the list is for one thing kind of unfair because it's far from comprehensive. For example, you can add to the things I mentioned earlier that you're missing "Access to Double Attack"; the Speeder would have to pay for Vader, the Lancer can get it from a Geonosian Overseer. Graham made the point very well that it's just too hard to compare these two pieces. Yeah, they're both strafe attackers, but the squads (and factions) that they are in work SO DIFFERENTLY that comparing them in this specific way doesn't seem particularly fruitful. You could definitely compare a fully built Lancer squad to a fully built Speeder squad; heck, you could even just play them against each other, or play them both against 10 other different squads and compare the results. That would be pretty meaningful. I just don't see how this list is even close to that meaningful. It's not a very complete list, but even if it were, it's not a good way to compare pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Echo wrote:
This is probably the worst possible way to compare pieces, because you aren't weighting anything. Yeah, the Speeder has slightly better damage boosting options, but that is slight. The Lancer having +10 base Attack instead of +5 base Attack is a huge difference, though. The fact that the speeder can move 24 squares and strafe everything while the Speeder only moves half that with strafing is even bigger! That's worth like 3 times as much as the Speeder's slightly better access to damage boosters. The fact that Lancer gets only slightly hurt by Disruptive while the Speeder gets absolutely wrecked by it is, again, huge. Then there's the fact that the Speeder just works well in far less squads than the Lancer can work well in, mostly because the Lancer is a much better piece on its own than the Speeder is. And "Access to Ysalimiri"? What a one-sided category. Why not "Access to Pawn of the Dark Side"? Yeah, you mention Sidious as a movement breaker, but it's much more than a movement breaker, it's a whole other turn. That's a pretty big deal. What about "Access to being in a squad with bombs"? Seps have Poggle Bombs, Imperials have nothing to compare.

I know you really like the Speeder, and in the right squad I'll even give you that it's a solid piece, but this fails to be any kind of meaningful comparison. If you want to compare them, make a list of squads with a Lancer in it, then make a list of squads with the Speeder in it, and compare the squads.


Daniel, I'll be honest. This post made me a little disappointed in you. I consider you to be a very good player and an intelligent person. But it really feels like you reacted emotionally to this thread. For someone who plays light side so often you sure are acting like a Sith. Let go of your hatred. Look - I understand you are upset because you have to play a speeder bike at a regional because you lost a bet. I am not trying to start a fight - just trying to open civil discussion.

Perhaps it's my fault for not being clear. I was never comparing how a lancer squad would do in a direct match versus a speeder squad. Lancer would smoke it. That wasn't the point.

I was thinking about more how to build a Lancer squad vs how to bulid a Speeder squad, and how each of those squads would fare vs the Meta right now. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

Well, let's start at the top.

Echo wrote:
This is probably the worst possible way to compare pieces, because you aren't weighting anything.


Exactly. I wasn't weighing anything. Did you see a tally at the end? No - I didn't even bother because I wasn't weighing anything. That wasn't the point of this at all.

Echo wrote:
Yeah, the Speeder has slightly better damage boosting options, but that is slight.


I wouldn't call it slightly. + 10 damage boardwide on twin attack is massive. You can get +20 without too much trouble.

Echo wrote:
The Lancer having +10 base Attack instead of +5 base Attack is a huge difference, though.


Agreed. I did give that to the Lancer. Perhaps I should have BOLDED it. It is a big difference.

Here's the thing. Squads I have run multiple times have the Lancer at +14, and the Speeder at +12. Barring disruptive/distraction/ABM - that's nominal.

Echo wrote:
The fact that the speeder can move 24 squares and strafe everything while the Speeder only moves half that with strafing is even bigger!


Agreed, that definitely deserves a BOLD

Echo wrote:
The fact that Lancer gets only slightly hurt by Disruptive while the Speeder gets absolutely wrecked by it is, again, huge.


How many turns (minimum) does it take the Lancer to kill R2PO?

How about the speeder?

The answer is half the number of turns for the speeder. Why does everyone keep forgetting IT HAS A FREAKING GUN!?!

Fly right over with a swoop, (to just ouside the disruptive bubble), swap, and then SHOOT those little pests at +12 with twin for 60 damage. No more disruptive.

Disruptive has a small range, distraction even smaller. They can be a nuisance, but I have won games with both the Lancer and the speeder vs disruptive, distraction and even ABM.

Speed and movement breakers are the key to both being able to compete in those less than ideal match-ups

Echo wrote:
Then there's the fact that the Speeder just works well in far less squads than the Lancer can work well in, mostly because the Lancer is a much better piece on its own than the Speeder is.


I think I just disagree here, I think there are relatively the same number. I mean - I guess you could just throw one of either in anywhere, but only certain builds really maximize them. For the Lancer you have single lancer and double lancer. You have Grievous or Whorm. Then you mess around with the last little bits of tech and support. Same with the speeder. Obviously for the speeder you're gonna have Weir every time (just like you're gonna have Sidious every time for the Lancer.) You can have single or double speeder (or even triple). You can give them opportunist, cunning or both. You can throw in the STC for +10 damage, you can throw in a second Ysalamiri bubble. There's lots of options really.

Echo wrote:
And "Access to Ysalimiri"? What a one-sided category.

I thought I made it clear by the commentary I put after it why I included it.
TimmerB123 wrote:
Hurt by ABM, disruptive or distraction: Lancer - Movement and +4 from BDO - no, twin yes. Speeder - Yes, big time. Winner: Lancer
Access to Ysalimiri: Lancer - no. Speeder - Yes (x2). Winner: Speeder (makes up some ground from the previous category.)

Seems fair to me. I wrote "yes, big time" that the Speeder is hurt more by ABM, disruptive or distraction. But Ysalimiri is the one way to mitigate ABM in any way, and that counts for SOMETHING - ie - "makes up some ground from the previous category". Note the italics on "some" - meaning not much, Lancer still wins overall with these 2 categories

Echo wrote:
What about "Access to being in a squad with bombs"? Seps have Poggle Bombs, Imperials have nothing to compare.


True, and that is handy. But then again the ABM disruptive and distraction seem to hurt the speeder the most - and those same things totally neuter Poggle bombs too.

Echo wrote:
I know you really like the Speeder.


I do. But I really think I like the lancer better - so I don't think I am biased.

I have been having a lot of fun with the speeder lately, but I don't think it's the end all be all.

This debate came up from me talking with Deri about it. He knows a thing or two about minis. In our discussion think he was actually leaning toward the speeder.

I feel like I know a thing or two about Lancers. I also feel like I have played a Speeder Bike in the last year competitively more than practically anyone.



One VERY important difference in favor of the Speeder that I don't think you are giving enough weight to is this: Melee vs Non Melee.

Jake brought up on important advantage - Strafe a few figs then blast another across the board. Even when not strafing, a fig that can shoot for twin +12 for 30 each hit is not shabby.

I brought up another point earlier in this post - you don't have to be adjacent to attack, and that gets you around distraction and disruptive at least some of the time, vs NEVER with the lancer.

Still another point - you can COMBINE FIRE to increase your attack. Even mid-strafe. Let those uggies and rodians take the +12 attack of the speeder alone, then combine fire with your stealth (or sometimes superstealth) guns to hit the Maces and other big defense guys you face.

The last main point to Non-melee being better than melee, especially for a strafer is this:
Number of figures with Riposte/Djem So = 40 (Several in the Meta) (In other words - Things that can hurt a Lancer when it attacks, but doesn't hurt the Speeder).
Number of figures with Reflect = 4 (none really in the meta)
I think these numbers speak for themselves. 10x the number of characters to counter a strafe in this manner. This should not be overlooked.

Melee vs Non-melee is overlooked too much, and it shouldn't be. I still think the Lancer is a better overall piece, no doubt. But right now I think it can at least be argued that comparing how a well built Lancer squad will fare in the Meta vs how a well built speeder squad will fare in this Meta is a tough call. Weir is the only thing that made this possible, so this is why it is only now coming up.


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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:08 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Number of figures with Reflect = 4 (none really in the meta)


Oh, hi dere!

Image

Vader, Legacy of the Force shows up occasionally in GARY squads too.

(PS. I've been enjoying reading the thread, and I don't want to annoy anyone, I just wanted to point out that Mace LotLS has been turning up at Regionals quite often, still a reflect 10 with a save11, is nowhere as scary as Djem So/Riposte is for a Lancer...)


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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:27 pm 
Master of the Order
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Obviously my intent was missed, and I guess that is my fault

greentime wrote:
As Daniel said, comparing squads makes a heck of a lot more sense than comparing two pieces, especially two pieces in two different factions that both kind of require boosts in order to be worth playing.


That's what I thought I was doing. Basically - I said to myself - ok, I want to make a competitive squad in this Meta with a Speeder, and one with a Lancer. Let's break it down. So my intent was to compare the squads, not just the piece - but you have to start with the piece and move on from there.

greentime wrote:
Which is better, GOWK or Atton Rand?

Not really fair. Two TOTALLY different figures, compared to 2 VERY similar figures. I think you can make valid compare/contrasts with a Speeder and a Lancer. (I understand you were giving an extreme example to make your point.)

Continuing on with Graham

greentime wrote:
The lancer is an excellent piece on its own, that becomes amazing with the addition of relatively cheap boosters (20 points for Whorm, 8 for a BDO).


Twin boardwide vs Twin within 6 is a huge difference.

greentime wrote:
The speeder is a godawful piece on its own, which becomes pretty good with the addition of huge, squad-warping amounts of tech (Weir, Old Thrawn, and Piett for 85 points in all).


I wouldn't call it squad warping. Thrawn (one or the other) is Meta in any Imp sqaud, not a stretch to say he's gonna be there.

Weir holds his own regardless.

I will conceed Piett.



greentime wrote:
And yes, many of these categories are ridiculous. "Boost to the commanders"?? Commanders pulling weight? Uh, Whorm gives twin to my whole squad, not just the lancer. The BDO boosts all my droids, not just the lancer. By comparison, Weir only benefits the speeders and storm commandos; Piett benefits nobody but the speeder. And why does Weir earn "cannon" status and Sidious gets a "eh" when pawning an IG-86 gets you the exact same thing, except with movement breaking mixed in?


My fault in not explaining what I mean by this better. What I meant was what can these guys do after they are no using their CE (or Pawn of the Darkside) any more. Weir can hit for 60 from across the board all by himself. We've both played Sidious enough to know how often he lightnings, and that is all he can do. Nothing makes Sidious do more damage, where IG Tarkin makes Weir do 120 damage. That is what I meant by all that - make more sense?

It seems valid to point out how Weir himself becomes a monster, and Sidious really doesn't do much alone.

greentime wrote:
Your "initiative control" category is also fatally flawed, as you should know, because you cannot bring in the MTB against lancer squads, but they will gleefully bring it against you Imperials or Sith.


Good point, but that is only is Sep vs Imp (or Sith). How often are we seeing that in the Meta? Once again - Lancer squad beats Speeder squad head to head, that is not what I was intending to compare.

greentime wrote:
You also seem to have forgotten YOUR OWN SQUAD that used Nute Gunray to choose San Hill on a game-to-game basis, pretty much exactly the same as Pellaeon.


Ironically - I did forget. But - I still say advantage Imps. Pallaeon benefits your team in many ways. Nute hurts your team.


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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:30 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
Doesn't Indiscriminate let you attack characters with Flight?


Holy crap I have never thought about that!

Does it?

It seems like it shouldn't, but based on the wording . . .


(Still would be another draw category)


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 Post subject: Re: IG Lancer Droid vs Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:48 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
R5Don4 wrote:
Doesn't Indiscriminate let you attack characters with Flight?


Holy crap I have never thought about that!

Does it?

It seems like it shouldn't, but based on the wording . . .


(Still would be another draw category)



Flight does not prevent characters from attacking...it simply ignores them. Only Jedi Reflexes allows you to ignore Flight.

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