Echo wrote:
This is probably the worst possible way to compare pieces, because you aren't weighting anything. Yeah, the Speeder has slightly better damage boosting options, but that is slight. The Lancer having +10 base Attack instead of +5 base Attack is a huge difference, though. The fact that the speeder can move 24 squares and strafe everything while the Speeder only moves half that with strafing is even bigger! That's worth like 3 times as much as the Speeder's slightly better access to damage boosters. The fact that Lancer gets only slightly hurt by Disruptive while the Speeder gets absolutely wrecked by it is, again, huge. Then there's the fact that the Speeder just works well in far less squads than the Lancer can work well in, mostly because the Lancer is a much better piece on its own than the Speeder is. And "Access to Ysalimiri"? What a one-sided category. Why not "Access to Pawn of the Dark Side"? Yeah, you mention Sidious as a movement breaker, but it's much more than a movement breaker, it's a whole other turn. That's a pretty big deal. What about "Access to being in a squad with bombs"? Seps have Poggle Bombs, Imperials have nothing to compare.
I know you really like the Speeder, and in the right squad I'll even give you that it's a solid piece, but this fails to be any kind of meaningful comparison. If you want to compare them, make a list of squads with a Lancer in it, then make a list of squads with the Speeder in it, and compare the squads.
Daniel, I'll be honest. This post made me a little disappointed in you. I consider you to be a very good player and an intelligent person. But it really feels like you reacted emotionally to this thread. For someone who plays light side so often you sure are acting like a Sith. Let go of your hatred. Look - I understand you are upset because you have to play a speeder bike at a regional because you lost a bet. I am not trying to start a fight - just trying to open civil discussion.
Perhaps it's my fault for not being clear. I was never comparing how a lancer squad would do in a direct match versus a speeder squad. Lancer would smoke it. That wasn't the point.
I was thinking about more how to build a Lancer squad vs how to bulid a Speeder squad, and how each of those squads would fare vs the Meta right now. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
Well, let's start at the top.
Echo wrote:
This is probably the worst possible way to compare pieces, because you aren't weighting anything.
Exactly. I wasn't weighing anything. Did you see a tally at the end? No - I didn't even bother because I wasn't weighing anything. That wasn't the point of this at all.
Echo wrote:
Yeah, the Speeder has slightly better damage boosting options, but that is slight.
I wouldn't call it slightly. + 10 damage
boardwide on twin attack is massive. You can get +20 without too much trouble.
Echo wrote:
The Lancer having +10 base Attack instead of +5 base Attack is a huge difference, though.
Agreed. I did give that to the Lancer. Perhaps I should have
BOLDED it. It is a big difference.
Here's the thing. Squads I have run multiple times have the Lancer at +14, and the Speeder at +12. Barring disruptive/distraction/ABM - that's nominal.
Echo wrote:
The fact that the speeder can move 24 squares and strafe everything while the Speeder only moves half that with strafing is even bigger!
Agreed, that definitely deserves a
BOLDEcho wrote:
The fact that Lancer gets only slightly hurt by Disruptive while the Speeder gets absolutely wrecked by it is, again, huge.
How many turns (minimum) does it take the Lancer to kill R2PO?
How about the speeder?
The answer is half the number of turns for the speeder. Why does everyone keep forgetting IT HAS A FREAKING GUN!?!
Fly right over with a swoop, (to just ouside the disruptive bubble), swap, and then SHOOT those little pests at +12 with twin for 60 damage. No more disruptive.
Disruptive has a small range, distraction even smaller. They can be a nuisance, but I have won games with both the Lancer and the speeder vs disruptive, distraction and even ABM.
Speed and movement breakers are the key to both being able to compete in those less than ideal match-ups
Echo wrote:
Then there's the fact that the Speeder just works well in far less squads than the Lancer can work well in, mostly because the Lancer is a much better piece on its own than the Speeder is.
I think I just disagree here, I think there are relatively the same number. I mean - I guess you could just throw one of either in anywhere, but only certain builds really maximize them. For the Lancer you have single lancer and double lancer. You have Grievous or Whorm. Then you mess around with the last little bits of tech and support. Same with the speeder. Obviously for the speeder you're gonna have Weir every time (just like you're gonna have Sidious every time for the Lancer.) You can have single or double speeder (or even triple). You can give them opportunist, cunning or both. You can throw in the STC for +10 damage, you can throw in a second Ysalamiri bubble. There's lots of options really.
Echo wrote:
And "Access to Ysalimiri"? What a one-sided category.
I thought I made it clear by the commentary I put after it why I included it.
TimmerB123 wrote:
Hurt by ABM, disruptive or distraction: Lancer - Movement and +4 from BDO - no, twin yes. Speeder - Yes, big time. Winner: Lancer
Access to Ysalimiri: Lancer - no. Speeder - Yes (x2). Winner: Speeder (makes up some ground from the previous category.)
Seems fair to me. I wrote "yes, big time" that the Speeder is hurt more by ABM, disruptive or distraction. But Ysalimiri is the one way to mitigate ABM in any way, and that counts for SOMETHING - ie - "makes up
some ground from the previous category". Note the italics on "some" - meaning not much, Lancer still wins overall with these 2 categories
Echo wrote:
What about "Access to being in a squad with bombs"? Seps have Poggle Bombs, Imperials have nothing to compare.
True, and that is handy. But then again the ABM disruptive and distraction seem to hurt the speeder the most - and those same things totally neuter Poggle bombs too.
Echo wrote:
I know you really like the Speeder.
I do. But I really think I like the lancer better - so I don't think I am biased.
I have been having a lot of fun with the speeder lately, but I don't think it's the end all be all.
This debate came up from me talking with Deri about it. He knows a thing or two about minis. In our discussion think he was actually leaning toward the speeder.
I feel like I know a thing or two about Lancers. I also feel like I have played a Speeder Bike in the last year competitively more than practically anyone.
One VERY important difference in favor of the Speeder that I don't think you are giving enough weight to is this: Melee vs Non Melee.
Jake brought up on important advantage - Strafe a few figs then blast another across the board. Even when not strafing, a fig that can shoot for twin +12 for 30 each hit is not shabby.
I brought up another point earlier in this post - you don't have to be adjacent to attack, and that gets you around distraction and disruptive at least some of the time, vs NEVER with the lancer.
Still another point - you can COMBINE FIRE to increase your attack. Even mid-strafe. Let those uggies and rodians take the +12 attack of the speeder alone, then combine fire with your stealth (or sometimes superstealth) guns to hit the Maces and other big defense guys you face.
The last main point to Non-melee being better than melee, especially for a strafer is this:
Number of figures with Riposte/Djem So = 40 (Several in the Meta) (In other words - Things that can hurt a Lancer when it attacks, but doesn't hurt the Speeder).
Number of figures with Reflect = 4 (none really in the meta)
I think these numbers speak for themselves. 10x the number of characters to counter a strafe in this manner. This should not be overlooked.
Melee vs Non-melee is overlooked too much, and it shouldn't be. I still think the Lancer is a better overall piece, no doubt. But right now I think it can at least be argued that comparing how a well built Lancer squad will fare in the Meta vs how a well built speeder squad will fare in this Meta is a tough call. Weir is the only thing that made this possible, so this is why it is only now coming up.