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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:35 am 
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AoOs should always interrupt the normal sequence of play. Thinking about it this morning, the issue is that SWM is an exceptions-based game, meaning there are a standard set of rules and the characters typically circumvent those rules in one way or another. The problem is that eventually, with enough sets, you have exceptions to exceptions and without a true timing chain in place, it just spirals out of control. It's impossible to anticipate every competing exception, and it will be more difficult as time goes on.

Someone smarter than me and with more time on his or her hands can figure out a solid timing chain that makes the order of a turn flow concisely and fairly.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
figure out a solid timing chain that makes the order of a turn flow concisely and fairly.


Seems to me that "For simultaneous events acting player chooses order" is as concise as you can get. It also happens to be what we have always had, so changing this one instance would open up Pandora's box.

Like I said before - sometimes it's silly and doesn't make sense in universe (A bacta tank can SHOOT A BLASTER with certain commander effects!?!), but it's a game and with complex sets of rules you have to just accept certain oddities without making it all far more complicated and even more confusing.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:47 pm 
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After some thought, there is a precedent that is making me think I might have been wrong.

That is something that should've been brought up vs blaming the system or talking about rewriting rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:11 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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so it doesnt work?
We might want to find out which one it is soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:41 pm 
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I know Jason would (in undefinable) circumstances go with desinger intent...I'll be curious to see what comes out of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:49 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I know Jason would (in undefinable) circumstances go with desinger intent...I'll be curious to see what comes out of this.

Someone gonna talk to Rob about his intent with speeders? The real issue here is how strafe works. AoOs are the same as always, and Jedi reflexes allows AoOs when you couldn't get one before.

The real thing that seems to be surprising people is exactly how strafe works. The fact that the attack happens immediately before you enter the square (in other words adjacent to the target as opposed to on top of the target) is what leads to the confusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:03 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
figure out a solid timing chain that makes the order of a turn flow concisely and fairly.


Seems to me that "For simultaneous events acting player chooses order" is as concise as you can get.


Except they are not simultaneous events. AoOs interrupt what the acting character is doing. It has always been that way. The only thing that is different now is that Jedi Reflexes created - as you set out to discover and conduct discussion on, which I have little doubt was primarily for your own benefit rather than for drawing public attention to it so it could be discussed - created an odd interaction in attacks of opportunity that no one else in the weeks of playtesting, not even the rules people, considered.

It's no surprise that we are on different angles of this. I want it to work fairly. You counter that because it fits with your playstyle, well then it already does so. Which is why I responded that I would leave it up to others with more time on their hands than I have and a fairer sense of play about the game than you have to figure out what is reasonable.

Don't bother responding, I've written all I intend to and won't be coming back to look at this thread again.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:45 pm 
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No offense to Dennis (or any of the others involved in DOTF) but it didn't take me that long to look at it and figure out some possible workarounds. I asked Scott awhile ago about this for my own personal knowledge just to be sure, but it is how I had planned to beat any OR I had seen at last year's Gencon.

IMO this isn't much different than 2 years ago using the same fact (strafe occurs before you enter) to get around the edges of disruptive and what not. Look your guy is in the disruptive bubble and I get to hit him with twin because I am outside of it. Def took some people by surprise and I know Bill had to look it up at least once because opp didn't believe me.

This has worked the same way since BH when it was ruled that way with the Basilisk War Droid and momentum interaction.

And actually AoOs don't really interrupt the sequence anymore than strafe does. AoO is done before you leave the square. If we start adjacent then strafe is also done before I leave the square. 2 things occuring at the same time. Acting player chooses order. Obv Acting player chooses strafe first. Defending character is defeated before an AoO can be made. Now some might argue that the AoO should still get made since it was "generated" but that is not the case via previous rulings. For instance if someone is defeated (djem-so/riposte/whatever) before they get to make their twin attack then that attack is lost.

In reality this isn't much different than any of the other crazy rulings over the years that are now enmeshed in our brains. (Why does override trump door gimmick? why doesn't lobot get +10 damage from bastilla unless he has some other damage booster as well? why can you play door tricks with RS Princess Leia? Why can you play door tricks with intuition? Why does heavy weapon interact different with an attack vs a replaces attack ability? Why is Han still a Rebel if you use Jaina to bring him to the NR?) I know the answer to all these things they are just examples of things that could have been ruled either way and wouldn't have made much difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:56 pm 
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urbanjedi wrote:
IMO this isn't much different than 2 years ago using the same fact (strafe occurs before you enter) to get around the edges of disruptive and what not. Look your guy is in the disruptive bubble and I get to hit him with twin because I am outside of it. Def took some people by surprise and I know Bill had to look it up at least once because opp didn't believe me.


There we go, that definitely seems like the precedent this should follow. AoOs happen when you leave a square, but you HAVEN'T left the square yet; you're still in the original, adjacent square, just like in the Disruptive example you're still in the non-Disrupted square. They're happening simultaneously, acting player chooses the order, case closed.

I also 100% agree that the "acting player chooses order" rule is as simple as this can get, and I'm totally against making any revisions that messes that up.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:44 pm 
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It's to bad Dennis isn't coming back to this thread anymore as this might have cleared everything up.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:03 pm 
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The problem I have is the piece needs to move to use Strafe yes I know it attacks adj.

I will NEVER USE THIS LOOP HOLE. I will not go around you if I am next to you at the start of a battle because this is so broken.

I understand the whole reason why they attack adj just think its dumb they really dont have to move at the start of the a round if they are adj even though they need to move and go into the square to even use strafe.

Tell me how this even makes sense. Yes its how strafe has worked since BH I understand that just think the start/adj is broken.

Its just sad you are unwilling to change even though the rule makes zero sense. I would of fixed sweep targeting right when the game was over with WOTC and fixed all the errors that happened before jason came around.

anyone that is playing strafe for now on I will just give them the win? So if you bring in the ewok with strafe via lobot free win for you. I am done with this rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:00 pm 
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There is a situation that is making me rethink my initial ruling.

Unless you want to throw some more precedents at me to help me reconsider, than you should leave. Seriously, crying about a ruling falls on deaf ears. I have heard it far to often, even on the most obvious answers. This game is still pretty simple, but there are interactions that have gotten more complex and difficult.

If something does not work as intended, a designer should talk to me. I'm willing to work with them. Even Rob was wrong with how things worked at times.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:14 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
There is a situation that is making me rethink my initial ruling.

Unless you want to throw some more precedents at me to help me reconsider, than you should leave. Seriously, crying about a ruling falls on deaf ears. I have heard it far to often, even on the most obvious answers. This game is still pretty simple, but there are interactions that have gotten more complex and difficult.

If something does not work as intended, a designer should talk to me. I'm willing to work with them. Even Rob was wrong with how things worked at times.

Ill throw my reasons why it should stay the same give me a day or two. As much as I disagree with how the rule is now. Its the right rule and it should not be changed.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Strafe says a character can "attack each enemy whose space it enters." Then it says "Roll each attack just before this character enters that enemy’s space." Let's say that the strafe would not kill the defender, and he actually performs his AoO killing the lancer. The lancer then would never actually enter the "enemie's space" and would not qualify therefore to make the strafe attack in the first place. This glossary entry is poorly worded because you have an attack being rolled before you have actually met the conditions necessary to make that attack, i.e. entering the enemies space. Jedi-reflexes has simply made this logical error apparent.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:48 pm 
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I have been thinking about this for a while. The big problem with my original thinking of process of leaving and entering a square being simultaneous is the precedent of Snare Rifle on an AoO. Snare Rifle on the AoO interrupts the movement, the character never leaving the square. This obviously throws a wrench into how Strafe would work and my original thought on the simultaneous movement. Given a theoretical combination of a character with Snare Rifle/Clamp with Jedi/Force Attuned Reflexes, obviously, the conditions for Strafe would not be met, so the AoO must come first. So I am changing my original answer:

The AoO of Jedi Reflexes would happen before the Strafe Attack if you start adjacent.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:34 am 
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Clarification, this only applies to the normal AoO situation (ie the leaving of a square adjacent), not the entering of a square effect of Jedi Reflexes, which follows the timing of Mines.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:33 pm 
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You do not need the whole scenario to come up with a problem:

TimmerB123 wrote:
So let's say you have a lancer that is trying to mow down Corran Horn JM. You out-activate, and fly over the top and land next to him. Obviously he gets his AoO, and you probably take 30 damage.


But does the lancer get an attack if Coran hits a crit for 50 on the way in? Strafe comes before AoO?


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:48 pm 
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It's a droid so a crit doesn't matter. Corran only hits for 30. And actually if you start non-adjacent the JR always pops up because it extends the range of AoOs and when you enter the square adjacent to Corran you take the hit.

It only matters in the adjacent case.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
I have been thinking about this for a while. The big problem with my original thinking of process of leaving and entering a square being simultaneous is the precedent of Snare Rifle on an AoO. Snare Rifle on the AoO interrupts the movement, the character never leaving the square. This obviously throws a wrench into how Strafe would work and my original thought on the simultaneous movement. Given a theoretical combination of a character with Snare Rifle/Clamp with Jedi/Force Attuned Reflexes, obviously, the conditions for Strafe would not be met, so the AoO must come first. So I am changing my original answer:

The AoO of Jedi Reflexes would happen before the Strafe Attack if you start adjacent.


I kinda don't get the rational. By this rational, the Snare Rifle ruling was incorrect.

Strafe was around in Rebel Storm and has functioned the same the entire time. (whether or not people understood it and played it right) Snare Rifle came out much, much later.

It's the same exact logic loop - If the character never leaves the square, how was the AoO created?

It seems to me in the case of Snare Rifle, that the moving character should be "snared" in the space he's moving into, not out of.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:37 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
I have been thinking about this for a while. The big problem with my original thinking of process of leaving and entering a square being simultaneous is the precedent of Snare Rifle on an AoO. Snare Rifle on the AoO interrupts the movement, the character never leaving the square. This obviously throws a wrench into how Strafe would work and my original thought on the simultaneous movement. Given a theoretical combination of a character with Snare Rifle/Clamp with Jedi/Force Attuned Reflexes, obviously, the conditions for Strafe would not be met, so the AoO must come first. So I am changing my original answer:

The AoO of Jedi Reflexes would happen before the Strafe Attack if you start adjacent.


I kinda don't get the rational. By this rational, the Snare Rifle ruling was incorrect.

Strafe was around in Rebel Storm and has functioned the same the entire time. (whether or not people understood it and played it right) Snare Rifle came out much, much later.

It's the same exact logic loop - If the character never leaves the square, how was the AoO created?

It seems to me in the case of Snare Rifle, that the moving character should be "snared" in the space he's moving into, not out of.


How would that work if the AoO piece could not be defeated by the strafe attack? The square is occupied by an enemy, and the strafer can't stop there. That's the logic I draw from it.


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