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 Post subject: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:06 pm 
Master of the Order
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Would they have any interaction on each other?

I would assume since the CE doesn't take place on a turn, that a Battle Drois Sniper could move and attack.

Correct?


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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:30 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Would they have any interaction on each other?

I would assume since the CE doesn't take place on a turn, that a Battle Drois Sniper could move and attack.

Correct?


Good one, I hadn't noticed that before. :)


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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:36 pm 
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I don't remember the answer to this one. I asked Scott a whole bunch of questions about this before Jan MI tourney because I was running this squad. He will have to pop up and answer.

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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:46 pm 
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No. The "after init is determined" is essentially treated as one turn, and Heavy Weapon does not designate the character's own turn, only it can't move and attack on the same turn.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... i-Gon?pg=2

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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:01 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
No. The "after init is determined" is essentially treated as one turn, and Heavy Weapon does not designate the character's own turn, only it can't move and attack on the same turn.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... i-Gon?pg=2


Riddle me this - then why when a character is next to a door at the end of a round and intuitions away from the door, does that door not close until after the first activation?

By the same logic, door should close before the first activation.


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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:02 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
No. The "after init is determined" is essentially treated as one turn, and Heavy Weapon does not designate the character's own turn, only it can't move and attack on the same turn.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... i-Gon?pg=2


I think this is not the right ruling.
Flow walk gives out a turn thats why.
T1 CE just gives out an attack plus a small move (yes that part of the game is a small round but its not really a true turn.)
Both intution and Suprise move are not turns they are just actions for movement during that small round.
They treat it like a turn but its not a true turn only a fake one.

This is what Nickname had to say
Quote:
Yes, except that you're using the word "turn" in regards to an action in the post-initiative section of the round and it's not truly a "turn" as defined in the rules. (But certain elements of turns do apply in the same way during the action.)


What Bill said back then
Quote:
When they use the word "treat it like a turn" for Surprise Move and Intuition, its to clarify that things progress as normal (AoO's, using fps to respond, Cunning attack, etc.), not that it truly generates a "Turn". Flow Walking actually generates a turn just like Dominate, so therefore, its pretty easy to see why it works in one case and not in the other.


What Nickname said later
Quote:
Yes. That's more true than not--it's tough to use the proper wording because it doesn't exist. So 'turn' as the game defines it isn't quite right, but the idea of each action/event being sort of like a 'turn' is.

I got this mixed up earlier too with my hypothetical situation, so I realize it's not the simplest thing in the world.


So I stand by saying that this is not the correct ruling since its not a true turn by the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:15 am 
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I looked up T1 droids on Bloo Milk and they're the bulk loaders. So maybe this is some character/CE I haven't seen yet but the gist seems clear enough... (he says with trepidation.)

Abilities have generally been bound to turn based limitations during a "fake turn" time period outside the normal activation process.

Can you make unlimited Cleave attacks during a Surprise Move, or one Cleave attack?

Just one.

Conceptually that follows for all abilities that could be impacted. You rarely get to do anything crazy/unexpected just because it's occurring at a highly unusual time in the round sequence.

So I'd put Heavy Weapon's limitation as in effect during a "fake turn" too.

TimmerB123 wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
No. The "after init is determined" is essentially treated as one turn, and Heavy Weapon does not designate the character's own turn, only it can't move and attack on the same turn.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... i-Gon?pg=2


Riddle me this - then why when a character is next to a door at the end of a round and intuitions away from the door, does that door not close until after the first activation?

By the same logic, door should close before the first activation.


It's true that doors are a silly exception to how other stuff was decided. This exception was in place before I came on board. The way doors work creates some tactical options (loopholes many would say) that don't really add much to the game beyond confusion. But such things are too ingrained, and too insignificant once ruled upon to change.

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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:39 am 
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NickName wrote:
I looked up T1 droids on Bloo Milk and they're the bulk loaders. So maybe this is some character/CE I haven't seen yet but the gist seems clear enough... (he says with trepidation.)


I believe he's referring to the T-Series Tactical Droid from Renegades and Rogues. You got the idea of what was being asked, though.

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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:15 pm 
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your drawing a real gray line here saying a turn SA cant be used during a "fake turn" since there really isnt anywhere in the rules about this other than you cant spend force points once per turn and the whole suprise move stuff.

Its not really a turn just dont get how you can rule that it is when its not.

I understand where Jason is coming from but dont agree with it.


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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:46 pm 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
your drawing a real gray line here saying a turn SA cant be used during a "fake turn" since there really isnt anywhere in the rules about this other than you cant spend force points once per turn and the whole suprise move stuff.


Not saying that exactly. I'm saying that gameplay limitations that reference turns from very early in the game never anticipated the possibility of anything occuring outside of turns beyond the activation roll and were not written in a way to account for that. Very early on, when Surprise Move was added, they realized it created a huge gaping hole in how to resolve a variety of actual and potential things and so Surprise is the precedent for all such future questions and has been ruled consistently since then as limitations referencing a turn also apply during a turnlike interruption of the normal game sequence.

Would you expect endless Cleaves or Galloping Attacks hitting the same character a half-dozen or more times in a row, and other potential awful combos simply because a turnlike activity is happening outside of a turn?

I don't think you'd expect (or want) those things and so you don't (or shouldn't) want Heavy Weapon's restriction ignored either.

Of course if the designers want this CE to work differently they can easily add to the FAQ that it ignores the limitations of Heavy Weapons and problem solved.

(Or they can say otherwise--my opinion is no longer binding. :lol: I'm sharing it because I was asked.)

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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:05 pm 
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I will still defer to Nickname. Out of old habit and respect.

I really don't see the big issue. So figures should have MOTF Infinity before the round starts? That doesn't strike me as the most intuitive.

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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:17 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Can we just have a offical rule in the FAQ that can make all of this clear for future abilities. Right now its kind of out there. Since its not really a turn it is a turn.

Something like

Write something like treat all CE's that happen before the first activion as if it were a turn


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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:25 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
I will still defer to Nickname. Out of old habit and respect.


Defer? Was your answer different somehow? I think we came to the same conclusion upon rereading what you wrote above.

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 Post subject: Re: T1 droids CE and Heavy Weapon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:46 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
I will still defer to Nickname. Out of old habit and respect.


Defer? Was your answer different somehow? I think we came to the same conclusion upon rereading what you wrote above.


No, no, I did come up with the same conclusion. I still consider your opinion pretty binding.

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