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 Post subject: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:58 am 
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So let's say you have a lancer that is trying to mow down Corran Horn JM. You out-activate, and fly over the top and land next to him. Obviously he gets his AoO, and you probably take 30 damage. But you do your twin strafe and your regular attack and lay 80 on him. Now you roll init and you win (perhaps you have an MTB), and you go with the lancer first. You make your regular attack and hit him for 40, leaving him with 20 hp, and you decide to strafe him. What happens first? Do I get my strafe attack or does he get his AoO?

As I understand it - the strafe attack happens as you enter an enemies square, and for purposes of CEs, SAs, etc, you count it from the space BEFORE you are in the enemies square. So really these 2 things are happening simultaneously, and usually acting character gets to decide order.

If Lancer gets it's attacks first then Corran dies and Lancer lives to mow down the rest of the squad. If the AoO happens first then Lancer dies and Corran lives. Or is it like the whole Djem-so after death thing, and the Lancer could attack first but Corran could still get his AoO and they both die?

How does this work?


Last edited by TimmerB123 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:53 am 
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They are simultaneous (Jedi Reflexes allows the AoO when the Bike leaves the square adjacent, which is also when the Strafe would happen). The player in control of the Bike would choose which to resolve first.

And unlike Riposte/Djem So, Attacks from Strafe and AoOs are fully resolved (including defeat) before the next happens. This is covered in the Resolving Effects section of the FAQ.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:13 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
They are simultaneous (Jedi Reflexes allows the AoO when the Bike leaves the square adjacent, which is also when the Strafe would happen). The player in control of the Bike would choose which to resolve first.

And unlike Riposte/Djem So, Attacks from Strafe and AoOs are fully resolved (including defeat) before the next happens. This is covered in the Resolving Effects section of the FAQ.


So in my example (assuming one of the 2 attacks hit) Corran dies and the lancer lives?


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:23 am 
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This was not the intent. AoO's occur when the character starts to move, so the Jedi Reflexes would trigger as you enter the square. That is how it was designed to work.

What would happen if we were talking about a normal AoO against something like Gallop? You move adjacent to 2 characters, attack one, and then move into the next square. Both characters get an AoO, right? And before the Gallop Attack on the second character, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:29 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
This was not the intent. AoO's occur when the character starts to move, so the Jedi Reflexes would trigger as you enter the square. That is how it was designed to work.

What would happen if we were talking about a normal AoO against something like Gallop? You move adjacent to 2 characters, attack one, and then move into the next square. Both characters get an AoO, right? And before the Gallop Attack on the second character, right?


But strafe works differently. The attack happens as you enter the square. So they happen simultaneously, therefore acting player chooses order. This has been the case since rebel storm.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:56 am 
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The timing of Strafe Attack really screws up the timing. Remember, Jedi Reflexes also allows normal AoOs against those with Flight, which is where the timing comes into play. The enter part doesn't come into play in Tim's scenario, since we are starting adjacent.

The AoO happens as the character leaves the square, but before they actually leave it.
Strafe happens as they enter the square, but before they actually enter.
So the attacks, by all rights, happen in the same square, triggered by the same movement.

Also, Boris's example is the most perfect, since that can happen, if the Galloper chooses not to attack the second character.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Once again, confusing rules minutia decimates and obliterates designer intent... :|

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Once again, confusing rules minutia decimates and obliterates designer intent... :|


You still get an AoO when entering the square initially, and if you miss or choose to run away you get another. It's a very specific and small example where you don't like the outcome.

What was the designers intent? Beat the lancer at all costs?


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:40 pm 
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Relax, and leave your jaded sarcasm at the door. Your precious Lancer can win sometimes.

The idea of Jedi Reflexes is that the character anticipates enemy moves and attacks before they can strike. Congratulations on finding the rules loophole.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:08 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Relax, and leave your jaded sarcasm at the door. Your precious Lancer can win sometimes.

The idea of Jedi Reflexes is that the character anticipates enemy moves and attacks before they can strike. Congratulations on finding the rules loophole.


But the ability isn't about the enemies attacks at all, it's about movement. Any character can stand next to a character with Jedi Reflexes and attack all day long, it's the movement that provokes anything. So if the intent was to attack before being attacked, it would be a completely different (and ridiculously over-powered) ability.

I see that in this very specific case it may not work how you would have liked it to.

But one thing for everyone to keep in mind - this is a strategy game. With rules. Not an RPG or a fantasy reenactment. We all love Star Wars (why would we be here otherwise?), but this is also a strategy game. There have been numerous strange things in the game that would never happen in universe and some strange rules interactions along the way that were probably not designers intent since day one. I laugh at a bunch of them (Lobot shooting due to Mitthrawn's CE? Silly!) but shrug my shoulders and say, well it is as it is. I'd personally rather everyone know about these weird interactions and just accept than, than have people get blindsided at a tournament.

Not trying to start a fight or be sarcastic.

Honestly the reason I brought it up was for fear of it being ruled incorrectly at a tournament. Now that it is posted here everyone knows about it and can play accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:24 pm 
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It did come up in Lansing when his speeder bike strafed my squad with Nightsister mother and Rune Haako next to her with his distraction ability.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:29 pm 
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It is an odd interaction that wasn't thought of at the time, I admit. I could say more but I will leave it there.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:38 pm 
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Sorry, so the ruling is what? In Tim's example, does Corran get to make an AOO even if he dies from the strafe?

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:15 pm 
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From what I understand, no AoO. Corran dies before he can make it.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:26 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
It is an odd interaction that wasn't thought of at the time, I admit. I could say more but I will leave it there.

This is where most games would add an errata or ban but we dont do that lol........


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:36 pm 
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There's nothing stopping us from changing the rules or issuing erratas - we just did for soresu style mastery! In fact, I'm starting to think that we ought to have a couple of people sit down with the rules and streamline things like strafe attack so they make more sense and work in ways that are consistent with the rest of the game (and are easier and more fun to play). Until reading this thread I had no idea that strafe worked off of some bizarre mechanism involving pretending that you are in squares before you get there to attack people, and I played at least 50 lancer games last year!

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:43 pm 
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Errata to streamline rules part 1: Characters with Bombad Gungan lose Bombad Gungan.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:14 pm 
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The rules as currently written are about as streamlined as you are going to get. Keep in mind, it gets complicated once you start getting into very specific scenarios and interactions. I'm sorry if this goes against intent, but not everything can work 100% as intended. If someone wants to make a counter arguement as why the AoO should take place before the Strafe, please, place your arguement.

If you think there is a way to streamline what is in the rulebook and glossary (and errata), go ahead, and try and figure it out. I still have the FAQ and Glossary Nickname did up, if anyone wants to go over it.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:31 am 
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Its just silly since the strafe attacker has to move before they use strafe its just dumb that they get to pick what happens. They are at a stand still and the person in front odds would be able to block before they move. they can move attack then the aoo comes into play just doesnt make sense to me.


Its just a silly rule.

Most the time in minis if you want to move to get to somewhere you have to take an aoo then get there attack not the other way around.

There has to be a way of fixing this within the resolve rules and with the rulebook/ what the card/FAQ say.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:36 am 
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why cant we write somewhere in the resolve part about strafe/aoos since that really wasnt around during that time. I know there has to be a way to fix this odd rule.


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