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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:44 pm 
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urbanjedi wrote:
Hulk Smash!!!

Hulk Smash Stupid Tech. LOL

If Hulk could just use Thor's hammer then he would really smash the tech.


LOL that is how I used to play back before I left for a while. Played minis for years and never used lobot till prepping for Lansing City Champs.

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Tim, I was thinking about this one - why Revan over Zannah for the Sith faction?


I think Revan brings way more to the table. His CE is so amazing, and Master Tactician is immense.

Zannah has killer defense - but that's all. She doesn't make anyone else in your squad better.


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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:28 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Tim, I was thinking about this one - why Revan over Zannah for the Sith faction?


I think Revan brings way more to the table. His CE is so amazing, and Master Tactician is immense.

Zannah has killer defense - but that's all. She doesn't make anyone else in your squad better.



You could just run both of them. "oh, snap!"

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Nah, I'd rather lose with a bad Sith squad... :P

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
I have won 2 Regionals and made 2 GenCon top 8s and made multiple other regional T4 finishes and have only used Lobot in 1 of the regional T4 squads.

I personally despise Lobot and would rather just build the squad correctly from the onset. It often lets your squad perform better overall even if it loses something in one specific matchup.


Your the only one i can think of that has beaten tim's challenge. Double Lancer has neither a BDO or Lobot in it. You Win!


Did it not have a Battle Droid Officer? I did not rmember that.

Regardless - with all the extra ways of getting self-destruct, riposte, jedi (and force-attuned) reflexes, and death shots - this squad I think loses a half step in the meta now. Still strong, but not quite as strong as before.

So to be clear - my challenge is for THIS YEAR. After all, the 2006 GenCon champ squad had none of these figs (because most of them didn't exist!)

My list was for THIS YEAR'S Meta, and of course it is only my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:02 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Tim, I was thinking about this one - why Revan over Zannah for the Sith faction?


I think Revan brings way more to the table. His CE is so amazing, and Master Tactician is immense.

Zannah has killer defense - but that's all. She doesn't make anyone else in your squad better.



You could just run both of them. "oh, snap!"


Of course you can do that silly! But I had to pick just 1 for my list, and I stand by Revan over Zannah.


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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:55 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Weeks wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
I have won 2 Regionals and made 2 GenCon top 8s and made multiple other regional T4 finishes and have only used Lobot in 1 of the regional T4 squads.

I personally despise Lobot and would rather just build the squad correctly from the onset. It often lets your squad perform better overall even if it loses something in one specific matchup.


Your the only one i can think of that has beaten tim's challenge. Double Lancer has neither a BDO or Lobot in it. You Win!


Did it not have a Battle Droid Officer? I did not rmember that.

Regardless - with all the extra ways of getting self-destruct, riposte, jedi (and force-attuned) reflexes, and death shots - this squad I think loses a half step in the meta now. Still strong, but not quite as strong as before.

So to be clear - my challenge is for THIS YEAR. After all, the 2006 GenCon champ squad had none of these figs (because most of them didn't exist!)

My list was for THIS YEAR'S Meta, and of course it is only my opinion.


Well Tim, watch HannahCannon all day at Lansing. He doesn't have a single figure on the list and his squad has really performed well in playtest.

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:33 am 
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Since they don't have activation control (and never will most likely) they needed a way to get into the action in one phase.


Always in motion is the future... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:47 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
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Since they don't have activation control (and never will most likely) they needed a way to get into the action in one phase.


Always in motion is the future... ;)


Oh I hope they never get it. I think there are far more creative ways to make them competitive. Revan was a good step in that direction.


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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:49 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Quote:
Since they don't have activation control (and never will most likely) they needed a way to get into the action in one phase.


Always in motion is the future... ;)


Oh I hope they never get it. I think there are far more creative ways to make them competitive. Revan was a good step in that direction.


Unless the activation control has them using 3 activations it would be sooo out of place with the Sith. The sith do not control, they barbarically act on their passions and it would be totally against the dark side to wait in a line for one activation at a time..

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:51 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Weeks wrote:
So, there are times when you want to not take Lobot but they are tipically few and far between. My rule of thumb is if your only way of getting the fodder you need for your squad is from Lobot then you shouldn't use him. Basically, if your squad can work without Lobot bringing in anything then your good to use him. If you rely on what he brings in its too easy now for people to counter your plan with Wuher or Zann.

Some of the best squad-building advice that I've read in a long time.

People often used to talk about people using Boba BH, and then Dodonna, as a crutch. I think a similar thing can be said for Lobot. If you build him into your squad correctly, he's excellent; if you don't, he'll often end up being more of a liability. Decide what you want your squad to do, and then decide if Lobot will help or hinder you in that goal.



It actually is very good advice. The one thing I will never do in a competitive squad is put a MTB in the base squad. Therefore reinforcements (and now bribery) is the only way to get that. Virtually always going first (in addition to going last via activation control) is such a strong tactic it cannot be overlooked.


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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:03 pm 
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urbanjedi wrote:
I have won 2 Regionals and made 2 GenCon top 8s and made multiple other regional T4 finishes and have only used Lobot in 1 of the regional T4 squads.

I personally despise Lobot and would rather just build the squad correctly from the onset. It often lets your squad perform better overall even if it loses something in one specific matchup.



I have won 5 regionals and all 5 had Lobot in the squad. In 3 of the regionals Lobot saved the day IN THE ACTUAL FINALS MATCH by providing that bit of tech that I needed to edge out the opponent.

Chicago last year my Lobot brought an MTB to give your Thrawn the middle finger, and without that edge I would not have won.

Wisconsin AND Kokomo last year My Lancer variants faced Nom Bombs in the finals, and without 2 treadwell droids brought in through Lobot I would have been hosed.

Lobot is easily the overall MVP of my regional victories. But that does have a lot to do with playstyles.

I don't want a squad where there are auto-losses that I face. When I build a squad I have to believe that it can at least hang with the bad match-ups and crush the good match-ups.



Wanna know a secret? You all may not believe me - but despite all my praise for Lobot - I kinda hate Lobot. He's too good in certain (many) squads to not use. He's a nuisance (packing all those reinforcement options is a pain!), and he makes things take longer (extra steps, revealing squads, then picking figures, etc.) I play him when I think he is the strongest choice for my squad, which is frequent. On occasions when I don't play him it is kinda nice to just come to a tournament with simply your squad, dump it on the table and play. But then I lose (more often than I'd like anyway). I never like that. Obviously other people play differently and their style is more suited to playing without him. For me - I like all the angles covered.


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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:06 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Quote:
Since they don't have activation control (and never will most likely) they needed a way to get into the action in one phase.


Always in motion is the future... ;)


Oh I hope they never get it. I think there are far more creative ways to make them competitive. Revan was a good step in that direction.


There are many paths to the Dark Side. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:34 am 
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Playing Bastilla and not doing so well really got me thinking on the long car ride home. We all here list her as the top figure for OR and pretty high in the game. While that is all good and all she has became a major disservice to the faction. OR always lacked any real identity as a faction in the tournament game. Before Bastilla it was non-existant, now it seems to be a crutch to hinge fragile squad concepts on and hope that Bastilla wrecks enough heck for you to win. Now because of her being in the game, I'm pretty certain she limits what the Vset designers can do with the OR.

Now let me be clear, my losses in the Lansing Regional were totally 100% my fault. I made some really stupid placement mistakes that cost me all three games I lost in pretty quick fashion.

However with the current OR situation I'm looking at some seriously flawed squads in order to play Bastilla. I think that is apparent that out of 20+ competitors she only showed up twice, once by me and another by a close friend that thought she would be fun. This happening in an event where General Weir squads were pretty frequent. The event before this was the Lansing City Champs and I was the only Bastilla player.

Going back to the fragile squad concepts remark let me ellaborate on that a little. At Regionals synergy seemed to be the name of the game, each commander effect granting awsome abilities, and followers who can take those effects and run with them. In the OR basically your commander effect of worth is the OR senator. Not something paticularly game changing LOL. Then we go to our shooters. All three good shooters have 80HP and no form of protection, meaning stealth or evade. Next I guess we can go to the Jedi's which this faction is supposed to be about. Unless your name is Jedi battlemaster it is going to cost 50+ pts to be any good. In the current enviroment you need to be GOWK or Windu good to justify that kind of cost. Now I will say Master Thon is pretty darn close but he doesn't get the movement breakers or the offensive firepower that a Windu usually brings with him...

The faction is crying for a commander effect that grants Greater Mobile or a GOWK like figure. However that probably can't be done because of how good Bastilla is. I think the figures in Vset 3 really showed this.

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:16 am 
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I don't disagree, Audri, but I don't completely agree, either. I think Bastila is given a lot of credit as a top piece for the faction because her power is obvious. But the faction has a lot of pieces that never even get looked at, and I'm not just talking about V-sets. There's an OR non-unique Jedi that grants Mobile Attack, but the only time I have ever seen it played was with Yobuck...

As far as V-sets go - and I do not know what you played yesterday or how your games went - there are a lot of great pieces that just don't get enough credit. Revanchist, Jaq, Master Kavar, just to name a few. When I play OR, I usually run Revanchist with Bastila and then with whatever is left try to mix and match between the big hitters - Jaq, Seers, etc.

Bastila was a homerrun, because she gave the faction utility but is also a combatant when necessary. It's true that duplicating that level of success is difficult but I don't agree that she holds us back from doing other cool stuff. I think what holds us back is that every faction needs help in one way or another right now, and it's tough even in a 72 piece set to juggle them all simultaneously. I have a lot more respect for the predicament Rob found himself in over and over than I did when WotC was making the game. I think he decided, ultimately, that people love the movie stuff and did the best he could on the other factions, but not much more than that simply because there wasn't enough time in the day for 1 person to work on it.

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:21 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Quote:
Since they don't have activation control (and never will most likely) they needed a way to get into the action in one phase.


Always in motion is the future... ;)


Oh I hope they never get it. I think there are far more creative ways to make them competitive. Revan was a good step in that direction.


Of course, they already have activation control. They just don't control their own activations.

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I don't disagree, Audri, but I don't completely agree, either. I think Bastila is given a lot of credit as a top piece for the faction because her power is obvious. But the faction has a lot of pieces that never even get looked at, and I'm not just talking about V-sets. There's an OR non-unique Jedi that grants Mobile Attack, but the only time I have ever seen it played was with Yobuck...

As far as V-sets go - and I do not know what you played yesterday or how your games went - there are a lot of great pieces that just don't get enough credit. Revanchist, Jaq, Master Kavar, just to name a few. When I play OR, I usually run Revanchist with Bastila and then with whatever is left try to mix and match between the big hitters - Jaq, Seers, etc.

Bastila was a homerrun, because she gave the faction utility but is also a combatant when necessary. It's true that duplicating that level of success is difficult but I don't agree that she holds us back from doing other cool stuff. I think what holds us back is that every faction needs help in one way or another right now, and it's tough even in a 72 piece set to juggle them all simultaneously. I have a lot more respect for the predicament Rob found himself in over and over than I did when WotC was making the game. I think he decided, ultimately, that people love the movie stuff and did the best he could on the other factions, but not much more than that simply because there wasn't enough time in the day for 1 person to work on it.


I'm certainly not saying that the OR pieces that have been made are not fun, or for that matter unplayable in the least. Most just seem to fall into more of a "casual" theme then being ready for the bigtime.

I tried to create a single 60 figure set at one point. I did my best to keep things balanced and yet create the homerun bomb for everyone to enjoy... Needless to say it didn't go so well. So believe me I can only imagine what the Vset designers do and OMG what poor Rob had to go through.

I certainly wasn't trying to come off as complaining, just more of an observation that I figured I'd bring up to discuss.

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:56 pm 
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With Bastila, you do have a point that her power varies on how much your opponent is relying on Commander Effects, but even if her board wide disruptive isn't working, you can still take the +10 damage or just use her as a fighter - she's pretty strong for 33 points. Have you read the 8 page thread on Bloomilk where a few people are complaining vehemently that she's way overpowered?

I think there are plenty of good pieces available to the Old Republic; I think the Seers are also very strong for 27 points, while I think Carth ORS, Atton Jaq, and those guys with triple are very good shooters. I really like the Revanchist, Kavar, Thon, and Vandar out of the more expensive pieces, while Old Republic Senators are a bargain for 14 points.

I guess Old Republic don't have any huge commander effects that turn their little pieces into attacking powerhouses - Imperial is the faction to play if you want to do that - but they have lots of good, solid pieces that do well in a variety of situations.

I don't think Bastila limits future designs too much - there's no reason why there can't be a different version of Bastila that plays quite differently, a commander who has Rival and can't be played in the same squad as Bastila, or even another Force Ability piece; you'd be unlikely to play two Force Ability pieces together, although it might create problems at 500.


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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:19 pm 
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TheHutts wrote:
With Bastila, you do have a point that her power varies on how much your opponent is relying on Commander Effects, but even if her board wide disruptive isn't working, you can still take the +10 damage or just use her as a fighter - she's pretty strong for 33 points. Have you read the 8 page thread on Bloomilk where a few people are complaining vehemently that she's way overpowered?

I think there are plenty of good pieces available to the Old Republic; I think the Seers are also very strong for 27 points, while I think Carth ORS, Atton Jaq, and those guys with triple are very good shooters. I really like the Revanchist, Kavar, Thon, and Vandar out of the more expensive pieces, while Old Republic Senators are a bargain for 14 points.

I guess Old Republic don't have any huge commander effects that turn their little pieces into attacking powerhouses - Imperial is the faction to play if you want to do that - but they have lots of good, solid pieces that do well in a variety of situations.

I don't think Bastila limits future designs too much - there's no reason why there can't be a different version of Bastila that plays quite differently, a commander who has Rival and can't be played in the same squad as Bastila, or even another Force Ability piece; you'd be unlikely to play two Force Ability pieces together, although it might create problems at 500.


When I first saw her I would have argued to I was blue in the face that she was overpowered, at the same time thank anyone and everyone involved with her creation. I still love the figure and wouldn't be surprised if I played OR at the Owensboro regional.

I guess I'm struggling with what I'm trying to explain. I'm not saying that the current OR pieces are bad or unplayable. I still love the faction as much as I did when old Bastilla was the only rare they had. I guess I'm scratching my head and trying to figure out that with a piece as awsome as she is 1.) Why is the meta not using her more often and 2.) with a hoser like her why was Imperial the most heavily played faction at Lansing and many of the squads electing to use the Thrawn without Ysalmari. This being in a meta where people don't do mouse dumps because of the existance of Wuher. That just has me wondering if something is "wrong" with OR. Something I should probably resolve before Owensboro.

My first thought was a lack of "theme" for the faction. I might be dead wrong here but the only thing close to a theme for the faction is "Brick" but outside of Bastilla I'm wondering where the "mortar" is, outside of OR Senator.

Once again this might be just my narrow view of things, and having just came back after a few years absence there might be things I didn't see and so I don't understand.

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 Post subject: Re: List the top 10 pieces
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:21 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
I certainly wasn't trying to come off as complaining, just more of an observation that I figured I'd bring up to discuss.


No worries, I took it exactly as you intended. ;)

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