Echo wrote:
Fun formats can have stuff banned.
Noting the irony of this statement. Once you start banning stuff, you just have to keep banning stuff because other stuff rises to the top. One of my original squads for Epic (back before Epic cards were even thought of) was a Separatist squad with 4 Lancers and I don't believe I had San as one of my 3 commanders. No one even came close to stopping me with anything they had. Lancers were definitely broken that day.
thereisnotry wrote:
Dennis, I agree that we don't want to get on the slippery slope of banning. But what about the Big D in the DD format? That didn't lead to a slippery slope, and it was helpful for the format. The point is that sometimes a tactic or ability has a truly unbalancing impact on the game, and something has to be done to keep the format enjoyable. As I said, I think something needs to be done about Bastila, because she reduces the field to 2 factions in the Epic format. It's not a matter of me (or anyone) wanting to tailor the game to my tastes...it's about wanting to keep the format as open and enjoyable as possible. I think it's a similar thing with tempo control CEs: if San/Dodomna DO actually cripple the meta, then I think they should be removed from the equation.
I'll try to take this point by point. 1. The Big D in DD. There were mixed views on how to deal with this, and WotC opted to just ban a piece - at the urging of some of us in the community who had a direct line to the powers that were - while the player's team implemented a different approach. With the advent of new characters with the ability, the current ruling works just fine. Personally I'd like to go a step further and errata Disintegration to state:
Disintegration (Whenever this character rolls a natural 20 against an enemy
within 6 squares, that enemy takes +40 damage if it is huge or larger. Large or smaller enemies are immediately defeated instead)
I agree that "sometimes a tactic or an ability has a truly unbalancing impact on the game," but I don't agree that Lobot is one of those - at least no more at the 500 pt. level than at the 200 pt. level. I think it's more prudent to flesh out the format with new cards and design choices rather than to try to curtail existing ones. The concept is already there, in its infancy, with things like Wuher and Tyber Zann. Should we ban Tyber as well? He lets me bring Reinforcements. I'd be more concerned about the stacking (so to speak) of unlimited commander effects at the 500 pt. level than I would about one character that lets you bring in more pieces. Which brings me to number 3. Bastila. She does not reduce the format to 2 factions. The decision not to implement special rules that were contemplated for weeks if not months regarding commanders brokenness at large point values limits the format to 3 factions. Without the commander restriction, I am bringing Pellaeon and Grand Admiral Thrawn, and Epic Vader and a handful of cheap commanders that I can toss every round for a significant benefit. I have 12-square range on Force Immunity. Heck, I might even throw in TPM for the Force Withdrawal so he can swap around from outside the bubble while I'm at it. My point is that the format isn't played enough to say for certain what the game will look like once it develops. Too many groups are making up their own rules, and the rules change from one week to the next. We need a lot more consistent play and consistent rules to say whether one thing is broken over another. We had that with Epic when the idea was first proposed years ago - 3 commanders, period. Implement that consistently and you will see Bastila fade away the more time passes. It will also have an impact on tempo control commanders, but whether they are indeed a serious problem to be dealt with is something that can only be determined (again) through consistent rules and play concepts. We are nowhere near that point with the format right now.
And that's number 4. "
If" (emphasis mine) San/Dodonna DO actually cripple the meta..." as you put it, then yeah I would agree with your solution, and a banned list for Epic would read something like...
The following figures are banned from Epic format:
San Hill
General Dodonna
Lobot
Grand Moff Tarkin
Mandalorian Tactician (The guy from DotF who grants tempo control, not sure about the name)
the Imperial admiral from Legacy of the Force (can't remember his name, either)
Admiral Ozzel
Tyber Zann
Every faction-specific character with the Reinforcements special ability.
But don't stop there. We have other pieces that are crazy awesome in this format, and some of those haven't even been realized yet. The point total build is just too powerful because nothing has ever been tested at that level.
To sum up, all of these suggestions for changes are due to inconsistencies in the way people play this format, and far too premature to be seriously considered until the format is played in a standard method with the standard set of rules concepts. Run a series of events with the 3-commander limit and then we can start to have a realistic, serious discussion about the "problem" issues.