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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:30 pm 
Mandalore
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Pics of the Battle Box?

Also, I really dont see a reason for needing to make the last row 'dead'. If someone finds it advantageous to have the extra row of spaces, why not let them use it. Every player has the option of buying the set of tiles, so why bother?

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:37 pm 
Master of the Order
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Minor imbalance in TILE WARS: There is no downside to setting up second. Unlike regular swm, you don't get to at least pick your side if you set up first. You lose the set-up roll and it just stinks to be you.

Add setting up second to winning init, and you can have a nasty first round strike, or know to make them go first so you can have the upper hand.

Proposed solution: Couple set-up with the first initiative roll. Essentially nobody would ever get the best end of both of these two things.

Here's how it would work:

1. Set up tiles, but do NOT place figures yet.
2. Roll for initiative
3. Winner sets their squad up first
4. Loser sets up their squad second
5. Winner picks who goes first, and the game starts.

So this way the winner of the first initiative always sets up first.

Let me know what you think


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:40 pm 
Master of the Order
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Disturbed1 wrote:
Pics of the Battle Box?


I didn't take any (shame on me) - I hope someone else did!

Disturbed1 wrote:
Also, I really dont see a reason for needing to make the last row 'dead'. If someone finds it advantageous to have the extra row of spaces, why not let them use it. Every player has the option of buying the set of tiles, so why bother?


Interesting point. Let's all take a closer look and see. One thing that pops in my head is that 7 is the magic number to always allow a figure on the edge of their own tile move 6 and then attack someone even in the back row of the other tile. 8 squares might give shooter squads an advantage.

I am open to looking into it. Let's all examine the tiles more closely


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:03 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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TimmerB123 wrote:

Here's how it would work:

1. Set up tiles, but do NOT place figures yet.
2. Roll for initiative
3. Winner sets their squad up first
4. Loser sets up their squad second
5. Winner picks who goes first, and the game starts.

So this way the winner of the first initiative always sets up first.

Let me know what you think


I'm not entirely convinced that it's a huge problem. I mean, as it stands now, unless Master Tactician is on the board, you are gambling on initiative if you set up in a way that requires you to be able to pounce on the first move, and it seemed to me that a lot of people's set-up was based on planning for the scenario where they wouldn't win init.

Speaking of which, how would this interact with abilities like Master Tactician? Or Recon? Certainly it decreases the value of Recon if the ruling decouples the first init roll from the possibility of Nym or whoever being able to see somebody. Probably also decreases the value of MT since right now the MT player has a 50 percent chance of setting up second and a 95 percent chance of going first (assuming the other player does not have MT or NTMTO). Under this proposal, the MT player is getting one or the other. I know Bill Hazel did very well with his Revan build, but I hardly felt like MT was abused in Tile Wars.


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:16 am 
Mandalore
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Here's how it would work:

1. Set up tiles, but do NOT place figures yet.
2. Roll for initiative
3. Winner sets their squad up first
4. Loser sets up their squad second
5. Winner picks who goes first, and the game starts.

So this way the winner of the first initiative always sets up first.


Alternative:
0. Reveal tiles
1. Roll init.
2.Winner chooses who places tile first (in case of a tile facing one direction vs the other being more advantageous). Tiles are placed one at a time.
3. Second person to place tile sets up figs first.
4. Roll init. (Recon isnt nerfed now.)
5. Winner picks who goes first, and the game starts.

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:41 am 
Master of the Order
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Disturbed1 wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Here's how it would work:

1. Set up tiles, but do NOT place figures yet.
2. Roll for initiative
3. Winner sets their squad up first
4. Loser sets up their squad second
5. Winner picks who goes first, and the game starts.

So this way the winner of the first initiative always sets up first.


Alternative:
0. Reveal tiles
1. Roll init.
2.Winner chooses who places tile first (in case of a tile facing one direction vs the other being more advantageous). Tiles are placed one at a time.
3. Second person to place tile sets up figs first.
4. Roll init. (Recon isnt nerfed now.)
5. Winner picks who goes first, and the game starts.


This is essentially what we have now, since 95% of the time at least 1 of the 2 tiles can only face one direction, if not both tiles. Either that or the tile is the same either way.


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:21 am 
Master of the Order
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So there may be new tiles from Chris West very soon - go pledge to his kickstarter drive so that they get printed!!!

So I would also like to re-open the discussion of 8x5 tiles (vs the current legal 7x5).

I am leaning towards making them legal, but having one "dead row".

If that row were the one adjoining your opponents tile, you would slip it underneath theirs so that the "dead row" was overlapped by their tile.

If the "dead row" were in back, you could cover it in some way, and no figure could enter those squares.

Chris West has always been a big supporter of TILE WARS, and I'd love to keep using his tiles.


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:47 am 
Master of the Order
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Seems like that could be a serviceable solution.

Hopefully a decent number of the 8x5s would be viable for TW use taking that into account. :)


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:20 am 
Death Star Designers
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I support the idea of allowing the 8x5 tiles, even with a dead row. I have only played SWM for a couple of years and it is very hard to find the older tiles that are 7x5. Allowing the use of the new tiles that are easily obtained would allow newer players the chance to play tile wars.


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:56 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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I, too, would really like to see these tiles made legal.

The idea of having a "dead row" sounds good at first, and it might be a good way to go. However, that option presents a dilemma: suppose that both players are using one of Chris' 8x5 tiles, and suppose that both of those tiles can only face one way, and suppose that both players want to be able to 'tuck' their tile under their opponent's tile? Do those players roll dice to see who gets to tuck? Or do we pull out scissors? :lol:

Or maybe, continuing the above example, it would just be easier to make a blanket statement that the back row is always required to be the "dead row" (and therefore no tucking questions are necessary). But if we do that, then there could be balancing issues, where a player could potentially make drastic changes to the tactics of his tile for each game (and therefore gain an unfair advantage), simply by changing which way it faces for each game.

In summary, if we go with the "dead row" option, my opinion is that we should designate for each tile which row is the "dead row," and further designate that such a row must always be at the back (and therefore that these tiles can only face 1 way).


...Either that, or allow people to use an 8x5 tile just the same as they would use a 7x5 tile, without any adjustment whatsoever, without removing any rows at all. So the player has 5 additional squares to work with...no big deal! :)


Regardless, I really hope that the 8x5 tiles can be used in TW play...they're just so cool!

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Yah just allow the 5x8 tiles in normal play as they are, it's not that big of a change as most shooter squads are usually places in the back and protected slightly anyways.

You could also alternatively say that characters cannot set up in the back/last/furthest away row.


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:55 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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GeneralGrievous wrote:
You could also alternatively say that characters cannot set up in the back/last/furthest away row.

That would work really well too. Pieces could move to those spots, but they couldn't set up there.

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:28 pm 
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The 5x8 tiles should definitely be allowed in Tile Wars i think. We have more 5x8 than 5x7 to choose from, and it would be a waste not to use them. It would also boost the support for Chris Wests tiles, and that would benefit the whole community by keeping us supplied with new ones from time to time.
I guess in time they will replace the 5x7s as an official Tile Wars tile size, but until then the 'no-setup-in-the-back-row' rule sounds like it would work for incomplementing the 5x8s into the existing format.

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:54 am 
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I feel bad for creating this conundrum in the first place, but I hope the extra content makes it worth the discussion.

For my printer, producing 5x8 tiles incurs the same costs as producing 5x7, as both are printed 4-up on a sheet of 11x17 cover stock. Going 5x8 wastes less paper, and lets us fit more artwork into the product for the same cost.

The card sets also fit my poster map packaging, so I don't have to stock two different sizes.

If my current Kickstarter overfunds even beyond the goal needed to print Deck Space (a poster of empty floor squares on one side, and empty railway & floor on the other, with a bunch of new cargo tiles), there's a possibility that I may be able to reprint my very first terrain card set--the one with the train cards and older Rebel-Storm-style detention facility. If that happens, I will probably add a row of squares to each of those designs to make them all 5x8, for all of the above reasons. I'll probably make them all double-sided, too, with variant designs on the back. Is that something that would interest Tile Wars players, or would it just add more confusion?

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:05 am 
Death Star Designers
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I think we pretty easily figure out a way to make the 5x8 tiles work to be honest, and a lot of good ideas have already been thrown out. I think the best way is to either A) Just let 5x8 tiles be used the same way as 5x7 tiles; does 5 more squares really make THAT much of a difference? We have a map with a different size in regular skirmish games (the hard board map), why not just have a couple tiles that are a different size? Or there's option B) have the back row of the tile (however you decide to set it up) be a dead row; you can't set up in it or move into it. Yeah, it gives you a small amount of customization by essentially changing your 5x7 by 1 row each game, but I'm not sure if that would even matter too much. I guess it would take looking at each tile and figuring out if any of them cause a problem with this.

I agree with Trevor that allowing the front row to be the dead row causes problems, because if both players want to do that it gets weird. You should just ignore the dead row or have the back always be the dead row.

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:55 am 
Master of the Order
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Here's what needs to happen - playtesting!

Get out some shooter TILE WARS squads and use the tiles that are 5x8 fully. See if that gives an advantage. Some of the new tiles may be very strong anyway, so we'll have to really consider them.

So test out the new tiles (I know the Vong themed ones are not out yet, but last years 5x8 tiles are in desperate need of playtesting!)

Report back here!


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:51 am 
Master of the Order
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Alright - ran some tests and had some fun with the new 8 square length tiles. Some are quite fun, others too powerful.

Here is what the additional legal tiles are:


(All by Christopher West <aka Maps of Mastery>

Sci-Fi Cargo Tiles:

Speeder Truck
Armored Truck

*Sorry - upon further inspection these tiles are no longer legal (4/24/12)

"Surveillance Station" Terrain Card Set:
(Most of these tiles are 2 sided, so I put them in pairs to make it easier.)

Gambling Lounge/Security Corridor (both sides are legal)
Maintenance Bay/Galley (both sides are legal)
Landing Platform 1 (both sides are legal)
Landing Platform 2 (both sides are legal)
Security Hanger/Submersible Bay (both sides are legal)
Storage (ONLY the side WITHOUT the "Maps of Mastery" logo is legal)


FREE DOWNLOADABLE tiles from Maps of Mastery:
(http://mapsofmastery.com/downloads.html)
<Click on the name to download the tile!>
Quicksand
Campsite
Crash Site
Control Car Roof
Freight Car Roof
Hangar Bay
Starfighter
Extension Bridge
Dragon's Hoard
Mining Track
Command Pod

Biogell Chamber
*Sorry - upon further inspection this tile is no longer legal (4/24/12)

This will be the list (in addition to those already legal) for GenCon 2012!


Last edited by TimmerB123 on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:52 am, edited 9 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:59 am 
Death Star Designers
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So are those just going to be legal without any changes? Just play them as we've normally played the 5x7 tiles, except you get an extra row if you're playing one of them?

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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:18 pm 
Master of the Order
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Echo wrote:
So are those just going to be legal without any changes? Just play them as we've normally played the 5x7 tiles, except you get an extra row if you're playing one of them?


Yes. I think that the KISS (Keep is simple, stupid) rule needs to apply here.

overlapping (aka a dead row) would get complicated.


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 Post subject: Re: TILE WARS (An alternate Star Wars Miniatures format)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:25 pm 
Death Star Designers
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Echo wrote:
So are those just going to be legal without any changes? Just play them as we've normally played the 5x7 tiles, except you get an extra row if you're playing one of them?


Yes. I think that the KISS (Keep is simple, stupid) rule needs to apply here.

overlapping (aka a dead row) would get complicated.


Excellent! I 100% agree with you that it should be kept simple. :)

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