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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:43 pm 
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Darth Malus wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
Kris, the other Kris... my son... pushed me off of Imperials for this tournament. Pellaeon is a great foil for Bastilla but when you add in Revan AND Hoth's CE, it became problematic keeping Pellaeon safe. I found Kris could put Boba or Zuckuss pretty much anywhere he wanted by round 2. Disruptive has a range of 6... Revan AND Hoth's CE gave Boba/ Zuckuss a range of up to 32. (34 if Zuckuss spends a fp.) He doesn't usually have to get in disruptive range to get a good FA. Further, if you put Boba in disruptive after the fact, he doesn't care. The amount of resources you're spending to kill him and the amount of damage Boba has done is worth the sacrifice. (Ask him... Kris was playing Boba much like a lancer is played... as a throw away piece.) I can't tell you how many times I killed Boba round 1 or 2 only to have the game devolve into responses, with that initial Boba damage eventually tipping the scales in his favor. For that reason, he doesn't care that you put him into disruptive... if he survives, he runs him out again and then does some more damage. If he doesn't... he just hits what you had to expose to take out Boba. A bodyguard is useless for Pellaeon... he just targets the bodyguard first. Now, I did try SS using a Mistral Shadow Guard and that slowed him down a bit, but when he could get FAs with multiple characters, trading even a couple of them to kill Pellaeon proved to be worth it.


Yeah, you're right.
I just wanted to believe that I had a chance. Thanks for bringing me painfully back to reality. :)


Lol you know how I like Imperials... it was a lesson I refused to learn in under 10 practice games. Talk about pain lol.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:59 am 
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I agree with the three ce limit in the epic format as I always have. My only issue with it is that epic vader will never get played with the three ce limit but not much of an issue as he will never get played with the power of OR without the 3 ce limit. You also would not be able to have an OR senator in there with a limit on ce's. I am not entirely sure I agree with Bastilla counting as having a ce. I understand all the arguments and my initial thought was you either get rid of the +10 damage from abm thus just making it board wide disruptive or you keep both and have it count as a ce. Not sure that's the right approach either but like I said that was my initial thought.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:33 am 
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If Bastilla counts as a Commander, then she's still by far the best Commander in the game.

My suggestion:
--Bastilla counts as a Commander
--When Bastilla's player activates ABM, he/she may choose ONE enemy CE to suppress during that usage of ABM...the other CEs operate as normal. (The player may choose to suppress a different CE the next time he/she activates ABM.)

IMHO, that would even the playing field. Lord Hoth will still be the best commander, but at least the other squads will be able to compete again. :)

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:56 am 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
I agree with the three ce limit in the epic format as I always have. My only issue with it is that epic vader will never get played with the three ce limit but not much of an issue as he will never get played with the power of OR without the 3 ce limit. You also would not be able to have an OR senator in there with a limit on ce's. I am not entirely sure I agree with Bastilla counting as having a ce. I understand all the arguments and my initial thought was you either get rid of the +10 damage from abm thus just making it board wide disruptive or you keep both and have it count as a ce. Not sure that's the right approach either but like I said that was my initial thought.


It definitely limits him. It's something I have been thinking about for a while, and on a broader scale than just him.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:42 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:

Before I go, I have just 1 thing to say: IMO, something must be done about Bastilla in the Epic 500pt format. She just dominates the game. Hoth is already plenty good enough: I think that my game reports have shown the dominance of FA'ing Zuckuss and Boba, combined with Revan. Even Vong (who Bastilla doesn't really neuter) cannot compete with OR because of Zuckuss' FA. And the rest of the factions are in just as poor shape. Whether we adjust the impact of ABM for this format so that it 1) only grants the damage bonus or 2) only affects a single CE, or 3) whatever, she's just too dominant. It's sad--and telling--to see half of the squads be OR in a format where all 9 factions should be able to compete decently well. I know I've built some dynamite Epic squads for each faction...I also know that none of them can handle the OR well enough to compete at the top level.

I had really wanted to play my Sith squad, and I almost brought it...but then I realized the power of the OR on Jedi Temple, and my decision was made for me. I had a really cool Republic squad too, but Bastilla's ABM would spell disaster. And I knew my Vong squad would be really strong, but that Zuckuss' FA would cripple it (literally!).


I posted about using the RBSV on Bloomilk on this same topic and I'm suprised no one has integrated this mini into Epic Vong squads yet. I think the Vong do stand a very good chance at facing OR squads. The OR power comes from Zuckuss and Boba BH. Why? Accurate Shot. Not Sniper. Accurate Shot. What does the RBSV limit the use of? Accurate Shot. And since Accurate shot seems to be the only major concern for Epic Vong squads, I'd say puting the RBSV into a Epic Vong squad should be done, just in case you end up facing Accurate Shooters, which is pretty much every squad, since when you have 500pts to build a squad, why not throw in Boba Fett, BH.

My squad I'd use if playing the Vong is as follows:
--Epic Vong Squad--
137 Czulkang Lah
63 Warmaster Tsavong Lah
30 Shedao Shai
30 Yuuzhan Vong Slayer
130 Yuuzhan Vong Ossus Guardian x5
24 Rodian Black Sun Vigo
21 Yuuzhan Vong Shaper
20 Yuuzhan Vong Jedi Hunter
18 Praetorite Vong Priest
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
8 R7 Astromech Droid
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(499pts. 16 activations)

You have a ton of damage, only 3 commander effects and you have safety from Accurate Shot if you keep the bulk of your squad in cover, which is pretty easy to do in most cases. I'd use the Yammosk to copy the RBSV's CE and use that, thereby making the squad ABM proof from disruption of the RBSV's CE, and you still only have 3 CE's in play. I like how the Yammosk can be a safety valve in case one of your commanders goes down, since he can also have that CE as a backup. I think with the bulk of this force charging forward at the OR, it will be hard for Zuckuss or Boba to deal effectively with them all. You can't glue more than probably maybe 3 at most (since both Lah's aren't followers). That leaves a the rest of your attackers to charge forward and give your opponent something to worry about. You have 10 solid attackers in this squad, all doing a lot of damage. Furrious Assaulting Zuckuss will only be able to maybe snare a few, that is, if you play the squad right.

The way I see it, the Vong don't need a lot of CE's to be good. Both the Lah's already do that. That gives you one extra slot for a CE and I think the RBSV fills that nicely. Its kinda nice to see a underused mini actually be usefull again and find a niche in the Vong faction. The RBSV also finds a place in Imperial squads also to protect Palleon from Accuarate Shot, however it is hard to fit him in since he is a your thrid CE, one of which already is Palleaon. Now as for other factions....good luck against the OR. :D

If a person had a Furrious Assualting Sniper, then the Vong would have problems, but thank goodness no great Snipers are out there for the OR to get a hold of. I agree with keeping the 3 CE limit. It makes the game a lot less complicated when you only have a few CE's to worry about.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:29 pm 
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Problem is that since it is a CE then Bastilla turns it off.

It could work in the IMPs double bubble, but then that is your 3 commander effects

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:18 pm 
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[/Quote]
My squad I'd use if playing the Vong is as follows:
--Epic Vong Squad--
137 Czulkang Lah
63 Warmaster Tsavong Lah
30 Shedao Shai
30 Yuuzhan Vong Slayer
130 Yuuzhan Vong Ossus Guardian x5
24 Rodian Black Sun Vigo
21 Yuuzhan Vong Shaper
20 Yuuzhan Vong Jedi Hunter
18 Praetorite Vong Priest
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
8 R7 Astromech Droid
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(499pts. 16 activations)

You have a ton of damage, only 3 commander effects and you have safety from Accurate Shot if you keep the bulk of your squad in cover, which is pretty easy to do in most cases. I'd use the Yammosk to copy the RBSV's CE and use that, thereby making the squad ABM proof from disruption of the RBSV's CE, and you still only have 3 CE's in play. I like how the Yammosk can be a safety valve in case one of your commanders goes down, since he can also have that CE as a backup. I think with the bulk of this force charging forward at the OR, it will be hard for Zuckuss or Boba to deal effectively with them all. You can't glue more than probably maybe 3 at most (since both Lah's aren't followers). That leaves a the rest of your attackers to charge forward and give your opponent something to worry about. You have 10 solid attackers in this squad, all doing a lot of damage. Furrious Assaulting Zuckuss will only be able to maybe snare a few, that is, if you play the squad right.

The way I see it, the Vong don't need a lot of CE's to be good. Both the Lah's already do that. That gives you one extra slot for a CE and I think the RBSV fills that nicely. Its kinda nice to see a underused mini actually be usefull again and find a niche in the Vong faction. The RBSV also finds a place in Imperial squads also to protect Palleon from Accuarate Shot, however it is hard to fit him in since he is a your thrid CE, one of which already is Palleaon. Now as for other factions....good luck against the OR. :D

If a person had a Furrious Assualting Sniper, then the Vong would have problems, but thank goodness no great Snipers are out there for the OR to get a hold of. I agree with keeping the 3 CE limit. It makes the game a lot less complicated when you only have a few CE's to worry about.[/quote]


I was under the impression that the yammosk counted as commander so that would make 4. I also didn't think you could copy one of your own ce's. I thought it had to be an enemy ce.
Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I was being led to believe.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:23 pm 
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Well that was weird. I click quote and select what I wanted quoted as I always have done before and this time it looks like I wrote all that.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:47 pm 
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O and you can't have the Yammosk copy one of your own commander effects so unless your opp also has a rbsv then you are out of luck in a vong squad.

In an imp squad that is another matter entirely.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:08 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
O and you can't have the Yammosk copy one of your own commander effects so unless your opp also has a rbsv then you are out of luck in a vong squad.

In an imp squad that is another matter entirely.


Yeah, I just read the FAQ for the Telepathic Insight being used on your own CE's. That is retarded. Why did the designers not make it so it could be used on your own CE's? I'd really like to know. It's not like it would break the game or anything. and the SA itself doesn't make it clear that it is only enemy CE's that can be copied.

And its a 3 Commander Effect limit, not a 3 Commander limit, unless I'm mistaken. If I am, then they should rephrase that wording. This is usually not a big factor in most factions as only 2 have commanders that have the exact same CE (Republic and Imperials). So I guess its just a lucky break for those factions.

At least there is still one more counter to Accurate Shooting OR squads: Nom Anor. Unfortunately there are so few great options to add for the vong in the Frigne faction with stealth that its really hard to fill the 500pts. I think the Quednaks would be a solid option now also, since they have built in cloaked. I'll try and make a squad with them and see how it looks.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:35 am 
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IMO - and this is just IMO, others may and are free to disagree - the only reason Bastila is a problem is because event organizers that run Epic are not following the guidelines recommended for the format when it was created. For reference, the original rules (as designed by me and with the input/play experience of the Owensboro crew) were:

500 pt. build
Up to (correction from earlier, sorry) 16 characters on a squad (though you may use Reserves/Reinforcements/etc.)
No more than 3 commanders (meaning characters with the words "Commander Effect" in big letters at the bottom of the stat card)
Gambit bonus (standing in the middle of the map) is worth 25 instead of 5

Since then, there have been some additions, such as the requirement that one piece be an "Epic," and that Gambit scoring be worth 50. These are, for the moment, still just guidelines, but they work to solve a lot of problems with the format. The only character that gets hurt by these guidelines is Epic Vader because it nerfs his Commander Effect, but - again IMO - his CE needed some nerfing.

Zuckuss + Lord Hoth are the top dog, I agree with that. But there are ways around it. Making "special rules" exceptions about how characters should be treated (ie Bastila/Yammosk counts as a commander) just confuses people, and works anathema to similar concepts. Should characters like Jolee Bindo count as commanders, too?

Frankly, if you don't want a 3-commander limit then I would suggest banning Zuckuss, Boba BH, and Bastila from the format. That's the only other viable option, truthfully. And while I am certainly not advocating that at this stage, it seems to be the direction some people who play the format are headed.

EDIT: When I say "3 commanders," that means only 3 on your squad, not that you bring 7 and pick the 3 effects you want to use each game. That just adds an unnecessary layer of complication to the game, and I don't know where that idea got started but it certainly never came from me.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:53 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
500 pt. build
Exactly 16 characters on a squad (though you may use Reserves/Reinforcements/etc.)
No more than 3 commanders (meaning characters with the words "Commander Effect" in big letters at the bottom of the stat card)
Gambit bonus (standing in the middle of the map) is worth 25 instead of 5


Interesting, I didn't know it was EXACTLY 16 characters. We've always played with just a 16 character max, and that you can't use Reinforcements to go beyond that limit (although you can use Reserves if it triggers). I thought those were the original rules.

Quote:
Since then, there have been some additions, such as the requirement that one piece be an "Epic," and that Gambit scoring be worth 50. These are, for the moment, still just guidelines, but they work to solve a lot of problems with the format. The only character that gets hurt by these guidelines is Epic Vader because it nerfs his Commander Effect, but - again IMO - his CE needed some nerfing.


I'm still a strong proponent of Gambit being 25 points instead of 50. 50 is just way, way too much. That's like it being worth 20 points in a 200 point game; after a few rounds of Gambit, you can avoid killing a good portion of your opponent's squad and still win by hitting the point total. I don't think you should be able to spend 3 rounds in Gambit and then completely forgo killing your opponent's Epic piece and still win.

Quote:
Zuckuss + Lord Hoth are the top dog, I agree with that. But there are ways around it. Making "special rules" exceptions about how characters should be treated (ie Bastila/Yammosk counts as a commander) just confuses people, and works anathema to similar concepts. Should characters like Jolee Bindo count as commanders, too?


Yeah, Jolee Bindo totally SHOULD count as a commander IF you us Force Valor. If you already have 3 Commanders on your squad, you may not use Force Valor, because that would give you a 4th Commander. If Jolee uses Force Valor, he now counts as a Commander and not a Follower for all in-game purposes, I think this should follow suit. Honestly I was under the impression that that's how it works anyway (that's how it was played at Coolecticon). The same thing goes with the Yammosk (it GAINS the opponent's CE, which would mean it counts as a Commander, not a Follower). I think Force Abilities should count as CEs for this format also. They work very similarly to CEs anyway, it shouldn't be hard to understand.

I also don't think changes like that confuse people that much; do lots of people get confused that Disintegration doesn't work in Dynamic Duos? Not in my experience, and this is a change basically on that level. A relatively minor change that's easy to remember and is done for balance.

Quote:
Frankly, if you don't want a 3-commander limit then I would suggest banning Zuckuss, Boba BH, and Bastila from the format. That's the only other viable option, truthfully. And while I am certainly not advocating that at this stage, it seems to be the direction some people who play the format are headed.


I don't think that's necessary, but should be kept in mind.

Quote:
EDIT: When I say "3 commanders," that means only 3 on your squad, not that you bring 7 and pick the 3 effects you want to use each game. That just adds an unnecessary layer of complication to the game, and I don't know where that idea got started but it certainly never came from me.


100% agree.


The problem with the format is that the pieces we have just plain aren't designed to work in it. It's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. I really like the format, but it just ISN'T balanced, and the more I think about it the more I think that it would take drastic measures to make it so. Banning a few pieces might be the way to go, I'm not sure, but I definitely think something should change. Or not, since it's not a really competitive format anyway, so who cares if it isn't balanced?

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:01 am 
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That's interesting, I never knew that in the original guidelines that having an epic wasn't required. That makes the OR more easily countered, and lancer squads become more viable.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:03 am 
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hinkbert wrote:
That's interesting, I never knew that in the original guidelines that having an epic wasn't required. That makes the OR more easily countered, and lancer squads become more viable.


Well, the original guidelines were made before the Epics were released. It was just a 500 point skirmish with some extra rules.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:13 am 
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Echo wrote:
hinkbert wrote:
That's interesting, I never knew that in the original guidelines that having an epic wasn't required. That makes the OR more easily countered, and lancer squads become more viable.


Well, the original guidelines were made before the Epics were released. It was just a 500 point skirmish with some extra rules.


Ah, I did not know that. We played a 500 point level tourney at the local store monthly meeting once without the epic requirement and Jim trounced everything with his lancer squad. Now I'm really interested to see what would happen at a tourney here in the NE if an epic wasn't required, but 16 acts were along with a CE limit.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:32 am 
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Sorry, mistype on my part. Exactly was the wrong word. It was 7:30 a.m. and I hadn't had my coffee yet. Up to 16 should have been the wording. I will edit it to reflect the correction.

And yes, Epic has been around for a very, very long time. If you dare to hop over to the WotC boards and look up Boris_the_Dwarf, you will see just how old of a concept it really is. :)

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:14 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Sorry, mistype on my part. Exactly was the wrong word. It was 7:30 a.m. and I hadn't had my coffee yet. Up to 16 should have been the wording. I will edit it to reflect the correction.

And yes, Epic has been around for a very, very long time. If you dare to hop over to the WotC boards and look up Boris_the_Dwarf, you will see just how old of a concept it really is. :)


That's a scary ghost town now.. :DSBoom:

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:13 pm 
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Well, when you drop pretty much everything except Magic and D&D (and even then piss off a good chunk of one base), going to lose some posters. I'm actually surprised that WOTC seems to be expanding again, with a new/old CCG and a new A&A miniatures game.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:18 pm 
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Sadly I'm actually really interesting the A and A plane game.. Just seems like to much money despite how great the planes look.

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 Post subject: Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
Darth Malus wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
Kris, the other Kris... my son... pushed me off of Imperials for this tournament. Pellaeon is a great foil for Bastilla but when you add in Revan AND Hoth's CE, it became problematic keeping Pellaeon safe. I found Kris could put Boba or Zuckuss pretty much anywhere he wanted by round 2. Disruptive has a range of 6... Revan AND Hoth's CE gave Boba/ Zuckuss a range of up to 32. (34 if Zuckuss spends a fp.) He doesn't usually have to get in disruptive range to get a good FA. Further, if you put Boba in disruptive after the fact, he doesn't care. The amount of resources you're spending to kill him and the amount of damage Boba has done is worth the sacrifice. (Ask him... Kris was playing Boba much like a lancer is played... as a throw away piece.) I can't tell you how many times I killed Boba round 1 or 2 only to have the game devolve into responses, with that initial Boba damage eventually tipping the scales in his favor. For that reason, he doesn't care that you put him into disruptive... if he survives, he runs him out again and then does some more damage. If he doesn't... he just hits what you had to expose to take out Boba. A bodyguard is useless for Pellaeon... he just targets the bodyguard first. Now, I did try SS using a Mistral Shadow Guard and that slowed him down a bit, but when he could get FAs with multiple characters, trading even a couple of them to kill Pellaeon proved to be worth it.


Yeah, you're right.
I just wanted to believe that I had a chance. Thanks for bringing me painfully back to reality. :)


Lol you know how I like Imperials... it was a lesson I refused to learn in under 10 practice games. Talk about pain lol.


I was going over this for the epic we're planning on playing soon. It'll take a bit to set everything up that I have in mind, but you should be able to do it on first turn. What I'm thinking is Pelleaon moves forward with houjix as a bodyguard. His 90 hp should keep him around long enough to keep Pelleaon alive. Next turn run another character up adjacent to Pelleaon and the houjix then use Thrawn to swap Baron Do Sage into that person's place. Next turn the Baron uses Force Barrier to keep Pelleaon from getting shot and then move Figrin D'an up adjacent to the Baron. Now Pelleaon and anyone else adjacent to the Baron can't be shot, and Figrin D'an can use draw fire to try redirecting attacks within 6 to himself, where they'll be reflected back by the barrier. The baron's ability stays active like Bastilla's, so you've got a couple turns each time he uses it if you can keep anyone from getting into melee with him. Not sure it'll work, but it looks good in my head and on paper.


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