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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:31 pm 
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MandalMauler wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
Not to mention the banning of quite a few pieces that would be required with an activation cap.


I might agree. Which ones would be high on the potential list?


Dodonna, San Hill, Ozzel would HAVE to go. I would go so far as to say any piece that allows you to break the amount you can activate in a phase would have to go, even ones like Ki-adi or Tarkin. When you outright say how many pieces you can have, the activations control pieces are cheap enough that you can use them and fodder and not lose strength. Heck, San and Ozzel only get STRONGER when there is a set character limit.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:43 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
MandalMauler wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
Not to mention the banning of quite a few pieces that would be required with an activation cap.


I might agree. Which ones would be high on the potential list?


Dodonna, San Hill, Ozzel would HAVE to go. I would go so far as to say any piece that allows you to break the amount you can activate in a phase would have to go, even ones like Ki-adi or Tarkin. When you outright say how many pieces you can have, the activations control pieces are cheap enough that you can use them and fodder and not lose strength. Heck, San and Ozzel only get STRONGER when there is a set character limit.

Agreed. I have never called for an activation cap without also calling for the ban of Dodonna/San/Ozzel. Tarkin and others like him would probably need to be banned. Ki-adi and Marka Ragnos...I'm not entirely sure that they'd need to be banned, but that would be up for debate.

This is also the reason why I think that the Epic 500pt format is best when limited to 3 CEs per squad...if you want to spend one of those valuable CEs on tempo control then the rest of your squad will be weaker for it.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:46 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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thereisnotry wrote:

This is also the reason why I think that the Epic 500pt format is best when limited to 3 CEs per squad...if you want to spend one of those valuable CEs on tempo control then the rest of your squad will be weaker for it.


Agree 100%. Consequently, those that have played the 500pts without a commander limit, have without realizing it I think, given Bastila even more power by not limiting to 3 CEs. Bastila is probably still a near no-brainer for OR players for events like this, but I don't think the OR becomes the go-to the way some think it is when there aren't as many CEs to worry about. Further, removing 3 isn't as much of a deterrent either, because now your 500pt squad tends to be stacked with tougher individual figures who are less CE dependent anyway.

In the end, I believe the best 500pt Epic Format rules will be the one Dennis wrote years ago with two small adjustments.

16 figures maximum
3 Commanders
At least 1 Epic character
Tempo control of any kind is ignored - no need to ban the figures, just ignore the abilities that break it.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:51 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
16 figures maximum
3 Commanders
At least 1 Epic character
Tempo control of any kind is ignored - no need to ban the figures, just ignore the abilities that break it.


Perfect!

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:03 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:

This is also the reason why I think that the Epic 500pt format is best when limited to 3 CEs per squad...if you want to spend one of those valuable CEs on tempo control then the rest of your squad will be weaker for it.


Agree 100%. Consequently, those that have played the 500pts without a commander limit, have without realizing it I think, given Bastila even more power by not limiting to 3 CEs. Bastila is probably still a near no-brainer for OR players for events like this, but I don't think the OR becomes the go-to the way some think it is when there aren't as many CEs to worry about. Further, removing 3 isn't as much of a deterrent either, because now your 500pt squad tends to be stacked with tougher individual figures who are less CE dependent anyway.

In the end, I believe the best 500pt Epic Format rules will be the one Dennis wrote years ago with two small adjustments.

16 figures maximum
3 Commanders
At least 1 Epic character
Tempo control of any kind is ignored - no need to ban the figures, just ignore the abilities that break it.

Yep, I was going to mention it in my tourney report, but I'll mention it here too: I personally think that Bastilla should be banned (or at least neutered) from the 500pt Epic SWM format. Being able to shut down an entire squad's CEs for most of the game...that's just too restrictive. At FrostyCon, I think that 50% or more of the squads on Saturday were OR...and 3 of the Top 4 squads were OR. Epic Hoth is already plenty good enough...he doesn't need Bastilla to make the OR a top contender in that format.

Until something is done about Bastilla in 500pts, OR is the only faction I'll take to a competitive 500pt tournament (and no, Pallaeon and GAThrawn isn't enough). It's just not fun being crippled for the entire game otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:45 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Until something is done about Bastilla in 500pts, OR is the only faction I'll take to a competitive 500pt tournament (and no, Pallaeon and GAThrawn isn't enough). It's just not fun being crippled for the entire game otherwise.


And I'll take Vong everytime and win it.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:25 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Until something is done about Bastilla in 500pts, OR is the only faction I'll take to a competitive 500pt tournament (and no, Pallaeon and GAThrawn isn't enough). It's just not fun being crippled for the entire game otherwise.


And I'll take Vong everytime and win it.



And then I'll take Mandos and win it :D

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:42 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Until something is done about Bastilla in 500pts, OR is the only faction I'll take to a competitive 500pt tournament (and no, Pallaeon and GAThrawn isn't enough). It's just not fun being crippled for the entire game otherwise.


And I'll take Vong everytime and win it.



And then I'll take Mandos and win it :D


Unless you have to play on Asteroid Base. Even if you don't, it's a tough fight.

I haven't messed around with 500 points post-Vengeance much, but before that, OR and Vong were the two strongest, favoring the Vong.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:25 pm 
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Back in the day, you could use Lobot's Reinforcements to bring in more characters, but I wouldn't advocate allowing that these days. :)

Also, Gambit scoring should be worth 50 pts. to give players a chance to finish the game.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:42 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Back in the day, you could use Lobot's Reinforcements to bring in more characters, but I wouldn't advocate allowing that these days. :)

Also, Gambit scoring should be worth 50 pts. to give players a chance to finish the game.


It's a hard call. You'd also have to remove reserves too. And I'm not convinced that has to happen yet. I'm willing to simply limit the initial list to 16 and allow reserves/reinforcements to break the limit.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:39 pm 
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Did anyone notice the return of the Mouse Dump at the Kokomo regionals? I saw it several times throughout the day. I guess there is a reason to start packing Wuher.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:16 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
Did anyone notice the return of the Mouse Dump at the Kokomo regionals? I saw it several times throughout the day. I guess there is a reason to start packing Wuher.


Wuher is situational at best. That's 3 uggies you give up for the "Maybe I'll screw someone" strategy. While he can be useful as a blocker your better off with movement + momow to kill the mice. Momow also auto-kills Drones (assuming they fail the save), Vong bombs, brutes, uggies, and is crazy effective vs Naboo guys.

Wuher would maybe be good in an Engine built around living Reinforcements. Lord Vader comes to mind. Vader, ThrawnMas, Lobot, Wuher, Ozzel, Pell, filler. With Wuher in that filler Imperials can outact and shut down enemy MTB builds. Lord Krayt may work pretty well with him too. I don't suggest playing Wuher just as a toss in, but rather, build with his power in mind from the start.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:18 pm 
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The modified mouse droid dump (MMDD), with seven mice and two uggies, was pretty much what I went with the whole day. Of course, I was playing a squad with HK-47, so those mice turned into 28 defense LA Kings goalies against any cannon squads that didn't have a way to get rid of them en masse. That was a big part of the incentive to bring them in.

The big thing for me nowadays isn't even outactivating but rather denying attacks. With a trend towards fewer pieces making more powerful attacks, being able to take those attacks away and waste them on throwaway pieces becomes incredibly valuable. The four shots from a storm commando could easily kill General Skywalker, except instead all you got was these two mice. They also come in amazingly handy for blocking access and driving your opponent towards where you want them to go. Against Eric Larsen I brought in mice even though he was playing Mace-Skywalker and another IG-86 might seem like a better idea (which Eric himself said before the game). But I could build a wall with the mice that kept Mace and Anakin away from my valuable/vulnerable pieces (Geonosian overseer, Whorm) and force him to use all his movement breaking and all his Force points running around to base pieces he actually wanted to kill.

The answer to this is Momaw Nadon. I was terrified of facing Lobot with my lancer squad in Atlanta because I could not bring in the stuff I would want to because Momaw would wreck it so badly. Tyber Zann helps a lot, too. Why bother bringing in 10 mice if your opponent gets to take half of them? Wuher pretty much sucks, though. He costs too much to mainline in your squad on the off chance that you'll get the opportunity to affect your opponent. In fact, the only squad where Wuher would really make sense is something in the 20 activation range where they want to deny their opponent 10 mice to guarantee outactivating!

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:54 pm 
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greentime wrote:
With a trend towards fewer pieces making more powerful attacks, being able to take those attacks away and waste them on throwaway pieces becomes incredibly valuable.


Directing damage the way you want it is a key skill that I see newer players in my group struggle to pick up. It's impossible to avoid damage altogether, but it's much easier to direct it to the places you want if the other team doesn't have accurate shot. Playing against Carth Onasi ORS with twin, with an extra shot from a Senator; you can get him shooting an activated Mouse Droid in cover that he'll struggle to even hit, or you can let him shoot your unactivated key piece without cover that he can feasibly pound for 170 damage - it's not a tough choice...


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:30 am 
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Weeks wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
Did anyone notice the return of the Mouse Dump at the Kokomo regionals? I saw it several times throughout the day. I guess there is a reason to start packing Wuher.


Wuher is situational at best. That's 3 uggies you give up for the "Maybe I'll screw someone" strategy. While he can be useful as a blocker your better off with movement + momow to kill the mice. Momow also auto-kills Drones (assuming they fail the save), Vong bombs, brutes, uggies, and is crazy effective vs Naboo guys.

Wuher would maybe be good in an Engine built around living Reinforcements. Lord Vader comes to mind. Vader, ThrawnMas, Lobot, Wuher, Ozzel, Pell, filler. With Wuher in that filler Imperials can outact and shut down enemy MTB builds. Lord Krayt may work pretty well with him too. I don't suggest playing Wuher just as a toss in, but rather, build with his power in mind from the start.


Well said. He's not total crap but it's laughable that people think that throwing him in any squad will be helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:05 pm 
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So there was a squad my Wuher would've been useful against?

Keep in mind, though, my activation control had nothing to do with how many pieces I had in my squad.

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