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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Ah, of course. Well we try to look at where the game is with the current sets and read tournament reports on how people are playing it, and go from there. Our first goal was to bring all the minor factions into the tournament game, and after that to start moving forward with all the factions simultaneously as much as possible. I can't speak for anyone else, but one of the main goals I have with this design process is to try to keep as many of the pieces WotC made in play as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Jedi_Master wrote:
What we have now is; Rebels (Win through massive damage), Empire (Win through massive damage), Republic (Win through massive damage), Separatists (Win through massive damage), NR (Win through massive damage), OR (Win through massive damage), Vong (Win through massive damage), Sith (Win through massive damage), Mando's (Win through massive damage)


This is so far off base. The game has far more "Soul" and "balance" now than it ever had. I'm very sorry you feel this way, but I can't help but notice you are completely wrong about it as well. Which either means we haven't done a single thing we've attempted and in fact done the exact opposite, or your opinion is based on some small tiny thing that you haven't really mentioned. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

It's easy to criticize if you aren't actually playing with the pieces on a regular basis. You can look at our stat list, find the 3-5 things that fit your desired argument, and claim we've homogenized, or pretty much any other thing you want to say. The fact of the matter is we've specifically stayed away from that approach despite it being a very highly desired design idea directly from the community ("The NR should get X"). Perhaps even the most commonly stated actually.

There will always be some crossover, because its a game that has rules. And certain aspects of a game are more powerful mechanics than others, enough that every faction must have it, or have a counter to it, or have its own version of it to be competitive. Take door control for example. You can't play a tournament without it. Period. End of story. Have we just given override away to every faction on a 7-8pt piece? Or made a fringe 8pt droid with it, and a 3pt fringe with satchel charge? Hell no. We've given every faction decent door control with multiple new abilities, and using existing ones on new pieces.

See Atton "Jaq"
Prefect Da'Gara
Clone Trooper Rookie
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I'm sorry, I just think you are extremely wrong, that I must have misunderstood what you are complaining about. I can reapply the model I just used on door control for nearly everything we've done and the results are the same. We have no just homogenized the factions, we've given every faction competitive pieces and squad designs, that are far from a mirror of one another. I'm sorry, but even with just DotF at Gencon, Ian's OR squad was nothing like my Republic Yoda squad, or Jason's Double Lancers, etc.

This is a mistake people have often made over the years. The same ability or what looks like on paper a very similar one in a new faction does not ever equal the prior. Dodonna did not at all equal San Hill. And despite the complaints when Ozzel was released later, he never got close to either Dodonna or San Hill. Faction diversity prevents it. What we've done is the exact opposite of what you've claimed. We've added to the existing diversity, and in some cases created entirely new ones. All directly from Star Wars source material. I can now play 3-4 entirely different Vong squads in a tournament and expect to compete, maybe even win. Just last year I played the only even remotely viable Vong squad in Chicago, and predictably finished in the bottom half, with nearly all games being blow outs one way or the other (the sole exception being the game I lost to Sithborg). We are responsible for that.

Factions should never, ever, ever be stuck with one theme, and one type of viable build. That is poor design, and I won't ever support it. Flavor is fine, but in a game, you have to have that flavor be competitive to other squads. I don't like playing rock paper scissors or Magic the Gathering. Knowing who has won or lost before we've played is not fun.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:22 pm 
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I do think that there was a need for the Bastilla's and Atris's to be made. OR was not competitve and now that Bastilla is here, everyone has to be worried about her. She isn't unbeatable, just annoying. I have no porblem with her +10 damage. I'd have a problem if it was +4 attack and +10 damage however. That would be broken. As far as the flavor comment made earlier, I do think that some factions have some qualities that shouldn't be messed with. In my opinion, if any new peice is made with Disruptive, it should be restricted to Fringe, NR and Rebels. All factions can get Disruptive for a price and awkward synergy, but only NR and Rebels have it on peices that synergize well with the faction. This is the way it should stay in my opinion. OR should continue having good non-unique and unique jedi's but that are defensive minded. sith should continue to smack the living daylights out of people but have no way to defend themselves except for the occasional Lightsber Block. Lightsaber Defelct should be rare on dark side users. Only a few in the WotC sets had them, mostly Vaders, a Maul and a few Sith peices.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:43 pm 
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First off, I feel like I offended people with my last comment. I apologize if that is the case. I am only bringing up my opinions because it is a direction I would like to see the V-sets go or avoid. I understand with 10+ sets behind it there is a great deal of difficulty adding new pieces to keep the game fresh. Mostly I am trying to point out WotC's failings in its last few sets and where the V-sets emulate them. They are by no means all bad, nor do I think you are necessarily doing a bad job with them, I am just seeing hints of the direction WotC took in the later years and am disturbed by it. With that in mind, I continue.

I am going to try to reply to everybody, if I run out of space I will back to back post the rest. Sorry in advance, I just wish to acknowledge everybody here.

Sithborg wrote:
The thing is, that is highly subjective on what the factions can be. The big four are big enough to have multiple themes. And it is all down to interpretation. Diversifying a faction is what makes a faction good.


Mostly acknowledging this one. While I do agree diversification can be beneficial, and that the big four have a lot in common, I still believe the strengths of the factions should be played up a lot more than the areas where, yeah, they had it, but it wasn't a major component. Yes, living seps need some love. Key word is some though. Mini's like Sora make it difficult to boost the older force users in the faction without making him ridiculous. I would have rather seen a bump to the existing Durge's, troopers, and even force users before seeing another separatist lightsaber.

audrisampson wrote:
One thing that is an issue as far as flavor goes is that the star wars Canon is a repeat of itself. The OR, R, Empire and NR are really one giant huge faction broken up by perceived times. Three of the four had a jedi order and all four of them dealt with a rebel alliance.. Mando, Seps, Rebels and Vong. Within that list only Vong has any real unique flavor of its own.


Starting here. While there are similar ideas between them, there are also some important differences. OR had several jedi and a lot of them were trained to use lightsabers in melee combat, as melee was more prevalent with sith running around. Also, the OR troops were fewer and further between than the massive clone armies of the republic but had more unique and experienced commanders. The NR, by contrast, kept many of the Rebellions tactics and was in the unusual position of dealing with two major enemies at once. Their hit and run tactics were very important in campaigns, much like the Rebellion before it, however it had a jedi order led by the skywalkers who wanted to train everything in sight. The new order jedi were more rash and less disciplined than the older orders, favoring more aggressive tactics and force powers. The empire, while dealing with internal strife, maintained near complete dominance over everything through its massive numbers and brutal commanders.

So yes, there were similarities between the factions, and they should show up in the game, but their unique perspectives and dogmas should be emphasized as well, as those were the keys to their success.

audrisampson wrote:
This game has two problems that really don't let it become fully what your wanting.. A. Its a game with tournies that needs to have competitive balance and B. Its based on already existing source material......While that might not satisfy a collector or someone sitting on a set of Clone Strike it does encourage people to play the game and really playing the game is what matters if this game is going to last any length of time whatsoever.


First off, I don't actually own a lot of CS stuff :P I just like using it for reference because at its release and for a year or so after it was considered a broken/over powered set. Now it is outdated.

As for A) there are several examples of systems like this where there are factions with very unique flavors and each is competitive. Check this game from RS through RotS (or arguably CotF if you banned thrawn and only count the big 4)

B, well, I gave a nod to that already. WotC really took a hammer to this game around Legacy in its attempts to "fix" the balance issues. That is a fear I am having from the V-sets right now, that it is/will be "fixed" till it is even worse than it is now. More on that in other responses.

Echo wrote:
For example, Jedi_Master, you say that when you think of Rebels you think of expensive non-uniques, but lots of big uniques too. Well, the Rebel Alliance had a full army. That's something that exists in Star Wars lore. That might not be the first thing you think of when you think of Rebels, but it's there, so minis can be made from it.....


Trying to save length, so I will cut it off there as the rest is the same tone/idea. While yes, mini's can be made for it, do you really think it is best to represent a faction by making that a focus when the primary aspects of the faction are not competitive? For example, the Sith have several great beaters. Yes, the sith had an army and were a military force for a long time, but when the sith lords are in that grey area of hit to cost/viability would you rather see a new commander who marginally boosts the scrubs or a nice synergy piece for the sith lords that helps them beat up more big units? I personally loved Bandon and kun spirit for this reason and would love to see more like them before I see a commander who gives troopers mobile attack or something of the sort.

Echo wrote:
In addition, I don't agree that factions all have the same flavor. Yes, every faction can do a lot of damage; that's literally the only way to win the game. Do damage.


Going to really break these next parts up. First off, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Damage is great, I like surviving damage or not getting hit to begin with a lot better though. Yeah, beast cannons are a quick way to end a game at the roll of a dice but why does that need to be the primary mechanic of the game? When the average damage was 20 and 40 damage seemed like a lot the game was more fun IMO than it is when each unit can kill the other in 1-2 shots. Why can't we have glass cannons on one end and defensive wusses on the other? It might make for a longer game but if it is played well it is a lot more fun that way. (by the way, that example is kinda the Vong vs NR argument from their original release in Universe.)

Echo wrote:
But there are tons of sub-themes; Separatists are the best with Droids. Republic has the best movement (yes, other factions have movement breakers, but nobody does it as well as Republic). Mandos have the best denial. Rebels are mostly glass canons. OR have high-cost light side force users, Sith have high-cost dark side ones. Vong are best when swarming with non-uniques, and have the Force Immunity flavor as well as getting more and more self-reliant while most other factions use Fringe characters. Imperials have either the big single beatstick squads (like Lord Vader) or the trooper squads, as well as some of the strongest commanders. New Republic is mostly a conglomeration of styles from Rebels, Imperials, and Republic.


Seps have the best movement in the lancers but it is a rebel theme, the empire and the seps have insane damage dark side force users that have better survivability than their sith counter parts, the OR, NR, and Rep all have very good LS lightsabers. All the light side Jedi and Dark side sith have the same force powers (sith rage vs precision/2, blocks and parries abound, force bubbles, force damage reduction, force armor, force lightning, force repulse, all the same ideas with near identical results.) Yeah, there is going to be some overlap but why are there so many Republic jedi with good melee abilities? They had nothing to fight in lightsaber to lightsaber combat yet there are several with block, riposte, assault, and/or dejemso, even more so than the sith of old who almost exclusively used lightsabers for kicking jedi arse.

Echo wrote:
If you want a really heavy movement faction, you play Republic or some very specific Separatist squads (Lancer basically). If you want swap, you have to play Republic or Imperials for standard swap (or technically Rebels or Sith, but they aren't very good at it), or you could play Sith for a weird unique swap. You aren't swapping in NR, Mandos, Vong, OR, or Separatists.


To be nit-picky, you can swap with mando's if you spend a lot on it :P

If I want a huge movement faction I can be any faction with swap, the "new" vong (getting there, while I like that the vong are more playable, they are the ones I think were dealt the most injustice flavor wise in the v-sets.) or greater mobile with the NR till the cows come home. I feel/fear it is only a matter of time before we see V-set swaps for the mandos and the OR as they are really the only two factions without massive movement avaliable.

Echo wrote:
It seems to me like you have a very specific idea of what YOU want the flavor of each faction to be, and you don't want it to expand anywhere beyond that. Well, that's not really a feasible desire, and it doesn't line up with the lore we are building on.


I do not want the existing flavor of the factions to be further homogenized for the sake of balance. I want to see the factions make up for their weaknesses with other, unique strengths that the rest of the factions do not have. While I know it is MUCH easier to simply balance the factions by giving them all access to similar abilities, I think it would be better to try and give each faction its own unique flair and balance them against each other. Again, I know it will be hard based on previous sets and there is a LOT of damage control to take into account. However, it should not be fixed by chopping out the base of a faction and replacing it with something else entirely.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
The factions do each have unique flavor. You will never see an Imperial piece with Disruptive (at least as long as I have anything to say about it). The same is true for a Republic Force battery, or a Droid CE that grants Evade (as far as I know there is only one Droid with Evade, and it is a melee piece).


That right there makes me smile inside. Please add to that list no rebels who have reserves, Vong who have the force (one specific example aside), sith who bring back units on a save 16, or other such silliness.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I think the pieces that have been discussed have the flavor of their faction built in. We worked very hard to define the flavor of all the factions more than 2 years ago, and I believe each of the design teams have followed that model fairly closely. OR is the go-to faction for the Force. Their's was the age when anything was possible through the Force. For all the hatred of Atris and Bastila, no one has ever criticized those pieces for lacking the flavor from their source material. Bastila's Battle Meditation was so valuable to Darth Malak that he captured and tortured her to turn her to the dark side so she would use her power for the Sith. Atris sat in her temple chamber and used the Force to turn the Echani Handmaidens against the Jedi Exile.


Those I can see but do explain how mini's like Sora Bulq, The Yammosk, Tactical Officer, Revan Sith Lord, and Mando Tactician do anything aside from give the faction they are attached to access to a play style they previously lacked? Not trying to be a dick, just giving examples of minis from the first V-set I saw as blatant attempts to give factions access to other factions abilities they lacked.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I will acknowledge that there have been some missteps with damage dealing, but I think overall we've been careful about increasing damage output. It might surprise you to see how many times we've taken damage boosts off of a character rather than add them just because we thought the output was too high. My only real regrets (and yes, I share in some of the blame) is the Battle of Theed Darth Maul and, for reasons you might not suspect, Bastila Shan. Both of them needed a lot more playtesting than they got and probably would have appeared quite different had they received more attention. I expected that the gaming communities would have meta'ed the pieces out of the game through the options we gave, but what I discovered was that no one really took them seriously until crunch time. That is probably less true of Maul, but nevertheless it is my assessment.


I am just glad you are looking back at the minis and seeing issues. Part of the reason I even started to reply was everything I saw about the v-sets on here were comments through rose colored glasses.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Regardless, this is a combat game, and dealing damage is how you win. Increasing the damage output speeds up the game, and in tournaments time is a major factor. There is still a lot of strategy and positioning that each player must do in order to win, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to 1 or 2 dice rolls that determine the outcome, and it has been that way since Rebel Storm. I was playing when the game first came out, and I remember what squads looked like - especially the ones that won. People went for the characters that had the best chance of hitting and dealing the most damage. Aqualish Assassin, Han Solo, Darth Vader, Sith Lord, Emperor Palpatine, Boba Fett, etc. No one brought a squad of Rebel/Storm Troopers backed by 1-2 Officer and expected to win (and yes, I know the story of the guy who won a tournament with 9 Elite Stormtroopers, but I have no idea what his opponents were fielding - I can just imagine from what I know of the early days of the game).


I know what you mean but I do have to argue a little. Before some of the rule changes damage mitigation squads were actually very strong (see Shield or DR and bodyguard combos) because their glass cannons would survive longer. Or the mobile attacking accurate shot squads. I don't think it was until Bounty Hunters that high damage potential was the best meta. Then again, before then it was hard to find a unit that could deal more than 60 damage on a turn without support, unlike the almost joke of a damage that is now.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Anyway, the point is that I disagree completely with the statement that the V-sets "have no soul." They have more soul in them than most of the stuff WotC did.


Than the newer sets, yes, the V-sets have a great deal more "soul". For me the game started to go downhill around Bounty Hunters, where you had units that could deal over 120 damage on their own, even more with aid. I just wish it could go back to the old flavors I mentioned earlier and not have as much cross over.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I like your idea for "characters with X get Y" and I agree that LS Sweep is underused. The problem is that if we did something like that, we would have to consider it for every new piece that we wanted to give Sweep to, especially working under the rule that characters without a lightsaber on their base have to have a Force power with lightsaber in its name or the lightsaber special ability to be considered as having a lightsaber. You can't imagine the challenge that presents when we don't want to just dole out Lightsaber Deflect/Reflect/Defense, and can't find a good lightsaber-wielding mini to represent the character.


I made a suggestion along those lines mostly because I saw similar use of the pilot special ability in the last v-sets. Though, if you think giving a character with LS Sweep and extra 2-6 attack once in a great while (said because of the prevalence of 4-8 character squads even in 200 point format) is going to be a great boon, especially when you need to spend extra points on another unit to grant it, I think you over-rate the ability :P

Billiv15 wrote:
This is so far off base. The game has far more "Soul" and "balance" now than it ever had. I'm very sorry you feel this way, but I can't help but notice you are completely wrong about it as well. Which either means we haven't done a single thing we've attempted and in fact done the exact opposite, or your opinion is based on some small tiny thing that you haven't really mentioned. I'm inclined to believe the latter.


I find this comment outright amusing when the grand moff before you agreed that there have been "missteps" in damage dealing and that the game "is a combat game, and dealing damage is how you win." In fact, three people before you posted in defense of the "damage damage and more damage" argument you quoted. Why is it every mini has to have 70 hp now to be able to withstand a hit? I remember when it was 30 and I am sure you do as well. Since when is double attack at 20 a pop not enough to be in a squad without boosts from commanders? Every faction went this way except a few which the V-Sets promptly addressed to make them more competitive. Why couldn't they have gone damage mitigation? Why not mobility? No, we needed to give them either easier to access or extra bonus, damage. And that "small tiny thing" you reference, I listed some of it from the first v-set. I didn't even touch the second-fourth yet (though 3&4 I have not played with much yet, so I am basing most of this off 1&2 which I helped play test and played with after they were put out)


Billiv15 wrote:
It's easy to criticize if you aren't actually playing with the pieces on a regular basis. You can look at our stat list, find the 3-5 things that fit your desired argument, and claim we've homogenized, or pretty much any other thing you want to say. The fact of the matter is we've specifically stayed away from that approach despite it being a very highly desired design idea directly from the community ("The NR should get X"). Perhaps even the most commonly stated actually.


See afore mentioned, I helped play test both 1 and 2 and played excessively with the first one, less so with the second one. While I am not privy to how much you reject from the "this faction needs this" argument, I can see where it trickles through in a dozen or so mini's. Hence why I bring this up, it is there, I am not sure how much of it is actually screened, and from the perspective of the guy who gets the minis when they are basically done it comes across as "this faction needs this to make it more like this faction."

Billiv15 wrote:
There will always be some crossover, because its a game that has rules. And certain aspects of a game are more powerful mechanics than others, enough that every faction must have it, or have a counter to it, or have its own version of it to be competitive. Take door control for example. You can't play a tournament without it. Period. End of story. Have we just given override away to every faction on a 7-8pt piece? Or made a fringe 8pt droid with it, and a 3pt fringe with satchel charge? Hell no. We've given every faction decent door control with multiple new abilities, and using existing ones on new pieces.


Quite bluntly, override and the type were a mistake and when the fringe revolving door model came out I wasn't sure if I should have cried or said about time. How about this for an example though, Tactician. We had Master Tactician, it became abused so WotC made a kinda dumb counter to it. Then, all the sudden, Tactician, Tactician everywhere. Why on earth convolute what should be the simplest part of every round? Make a solid counter to the original folly then move on, don't compound it by a thousand. Or how about non commander effect range. Oh, lets make a unit that lets everything have unlimited range to be fair to the factions without a Mas and that can not benefit from the mouse droids of the world. Or, you know, you could have made something like said mouse droid for special abilities or even found a way to add something simple like, oh, a good bodyguard for the faction. Nah, Mas is the way to go, it was broke so lets break everything else to make it fair.

Don't get me wrong, it did balance the game. But can you see where I get the lack of flavor from, or did you want more examples? If so how many before you agree it isn't "some tiny little thing" I found once and am bitching about?

Billiv15 wrote:
I'm sorry, I just think you are extremely wrong, that I must have misunderstood what you are complaining about. I can reapply the model I just used on door control for nearly everything we've done and the results are the same. We have no just homogenized the factions, we've given every faction competitive pieces and squad designs, that are far from a mirror of one another. I'm sorry, but even with just DotF at Gencon, Ian's OR squad was nothing like my Republic Yoda squad, or Jason's Double Lancers, etc.


yes but I bet you could have easily made a mirror squad of almost any one of those with little effort.

Billiv15 wrote:
This is a mistake people have often made over the years. The same ability or what looks like on paper a very similar one in a new faction does not ever equal the prior. Dodonna did not at all equal San Hill. And despite the complaints when Ozzel was released later, he never got close to either Dodonna or San Hill. Faction diversity prevents it. What we've done is the exact opposite of what you've claimed. We've added to the existing diversity, and in some cases created entirely new ones. All directly from Star Wars source material. I can now play 3-4 entirely different Vong squads in a tournament and expect to compete, maybe even win. Just last year I played the only even remotely viable Vong squad in Chicago, and predictably finished in the bottom half, with nearly all games being blow outs one way or the other (the sole exception being the game I lost to Sithborg). We are responsible for that.


You have added to the diversity of each faction by making it a lot like the other factions. See above for details if you didn't read them before.

Billiv15 wrote:
Factions should never, ever, ever be stuck with one theme, and one type of viable build. That is poor design, and I won't ever support it. Flavor is fine, but in a game, you have to have that flavor be competitive to other squads. I don't like playing rock paper scissors or Magic the Gathering. Knowing who has won or lost before we've played is not fun.


Of everything you said, this is about the only part I can agree with entirely. However, I can plainly see you zoned in on one or two aspects of what I said and ran with them. I am not saying "screw em, they are flavorful so no help for them" I am asking that you try to build to a factions strengths in its flavor. You had sissy vong whose commanders weren't really commanders so they had to be within 6. Rather than make all their abilities unlimited, why not play to their strength of damage reduction and make a big hp/vudoon 6 bodyguard/shield unit with no attacks. Or a vong with draw fire. Or a vong with some other ability that takes the heat off the vong support rather than say "shaper all the things, scarification all the things" You gave the vong a Mas of its own spin, everybody got a tactician, good lightsabers sprung up like weeds across all factions, and damage above all else is now the big ticket. All in the name of easy access balance. I know not all of this came because of the V-Sets but please do not compound existing problems.

P.S.

I know you guys are trying your best with these sets and you are all doing a fairly good job at it (a damn sight better than WotC). But like I said before, I have seen nothing but positive feedback on the V-sets and have picked out some areas where I think there is either an existing problem or a problem I believe is getting worse. The only reason I am bringing anything up is to try and offer some constructive criticism and some views as to where the game could go besides "make everything the same high damage dealing synergy squad." It is all my own opinion, take it as such and feel free to disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:32 pm 
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See, the problem is, where do you balance flavor of the game vs flavor of the character. You bring up the Yammosk. It should have a Booming Voice like ability, based on the books I read. That's the whole point of the Yammosk, and why they are called War Coordinators.

The factions shouldn't be limited to one thing, especially when the lore is supporting it. I mean, the Old Republic era is quickly becoming more than just Jedi vs Sith. And why should the designers to be beholden to themes Rob couldn't even make work.

And don't take offense, I enjoy these debates, it is very helpful for me.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:56 pm 
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I'll allow the others you quoted to respond to you themselves, and just comment on your comments on my comments (that makes sense, I promise!).

Jedi_Master wrote:
Echo wrote:
For example, Jedi_Master, you say that when you think of Rebels you think of expensive non-uniques, but lots of big uniques too. Well, the Rebel Alliance had a full army. That's something that exists in Star Wars lore. That might not be the first thing you think of when you think of Rebels, but it's there, so minis can be made from it.....


Trying to save length, so I will cut it off there as the rest is the same tone/idea. While yes, mini's can be made for it, do you really think it is best to represent a faction by making that a focus when the primary aspects of the faction are not competitive? For example, the Sith have several great beaters. Yes, the sith had an army and were a military force for a long time, but when the sith lords are in that grey area of hit to cost/viability would you rather see a new commander who marginally boosts the scrubs or a nice synergy piece for the sith lords that helps them beat up more big units? I personally loved Bandon and kun spirit for this reason and would love to see more like them before I see a commander who gives troopers mobile attack or something of the sort.


Uh, I would definitely like to see a new commander who boosts Sith scrubs/troopers. Once again: The Sith had a powerful army in the lore. What reason is there to not give them that in this game? Yes, the big Sith Lords are what many (or most!) people think of in regards to the Sith, but they are much more multi-dimensional than that. If the Sith faction was made up of 100% (or even 80%) high cost Sith Lords, they would be kind of boring. Something that I think we should strive for is to cover as much of the Star Wars lore as possible, so if someone thinks "I just read a comic book about the Sith army and think they were really cool, I want to make a Star Wars Miniatures squad based on what I just read about" they should totally be able to and have at least a tier 2 squad. Obviously we probably won't ever be able to cover EVERYTHING in the lore, but I think we should get as close as possible, which involves making commanders that boost Sith troopers, which seems to fall out of what you think the flavor for Sith should be.

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Echo wrote:
In addition, I don't agree that factions all have the same flavor. Yes, every faction can do a lot of damage; that's literally the only way to win the game. Do damage.


Going to really break these next parts up. First off, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Damage is great, I like surviving damage or not getting hit to begin with a lot better though. Yeah, beast cannons are a quick way to end a game at the roll of a dice but why does that need to be the primary mechanic of the game? When the average damage was 20 and 40 damage seemed like a lot the game was more fun IMO than it is when each unit can kill the other in 1-2 shots. Why can't we have glass cannons on one end and defensive wusses on the other? It might make for a longer game but if it is played well it is a lot more fun that way. (by the way, that example is kinda the Vong vs NR argument from their original release in Universe.)


For one thing, time is definitely an issue we have to deal with in design. Remember, this game is played in competitive tournaments. Games MUST be able to be finished in under 1 hour. One of the big ways to ensure that is to ramp up lethality vs. survivability. I don't think we've done it as much as you seem to think. I've actually seen WAY more complaints that things are too survivable now, what with Atris, Zannah, SSM being changed back, Eeth Koth, The Huntress, and more. You're definitely in the (incorrect) minority if you think that there aren't good defensive strategies out there.

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Echo wrote:
But there are tons of sub-themes; Separatists are the best with Droids. Republic has the best movement (yes, other factions have movement breakers, but nobody does it as well as Republic). Mandos have the best denial. Rebels are mostly glass canons. OR have high-cost light side force users, Sith have high-cost dark side ones. Vong are best when swarming with non-uniques, and have the Force Immunity flavor as well as getting more and more self-reliant while most other factions use Fringe characters. Imperials have either the big single beatstick squads (like Lord Vader) or the trooper squads, as well as some of the strongest commanders. New Republic is mostly a conglomeration of styles from Rebels, Imperials, and Republic.


Seps have the best movement in the lancers but it is a rebel theme, the empire and the seps have insane damage dark side force users that have better survivability than their sith counter parts, the OR, NR, and Rep all have very good LS lightsabers. All the light side Jedi and Dark side sith have the same force powers (sith rage vs precision/2, blocks and parries abound, force bubbles, force damage reduction, force armor, force lightning, force repulse, all the same ideas with near identical results.) Yeah, there is going to be some overlap but why are there so many Republic jedi with good melee abilities? They had nothing to fight in lightsaber to lightsaber combat yet there are several with block, riposte, assault, and/or dejemso, even more so than the sith of old who almost exclusively used lightsabers for kicking jedi arse.


Lancers are big movement breakers, but Seps in general don't have the best movement. Republic does. If
you disagree, it's frankly hard for me to think anything other than that you don't have a strong understanding of the competitive game. Between swap, R2, and Foul, Republic can get anybody anywhere (not to mention Yobuck and AniSTAP). I also genuinely don't know what you mean by "it is a rebel theme"; you mean Strafe Attack is a Rebel theme? There's only 1 Rebel Strafe Attack piece, and it was never really good.

Yeah, Imperials and Sith have some dark side force users, because they're present in the lore! Darth Vader is THE most identifiable character in Star Wars; he's going to have some good minis.

It seems to me that you just have a really really broad concept of "flavor" for each faction. You're complaining that too many factions have good "lightsabers". Uhhh, yeah. They have good "blasters", too! That's not what I consider flavor for the faction. Things like Sith Rage, Precision, Block, Deflect, etc. (standard Lightsaber powers) aren't faction-specific flavors, and NEVER were meant to be. Do you think only one faction should have access to those powers? I think our idea of "flavor" (or mine, at least) is much, much deeper than stuff like that. The flavor should be more of an overall theme, not represented by specific abilities.

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Echo wrote:
If you want a really heavy movement faction, you play Republic or some very specific Separatist squads (Lancer basically). If you want swap, you have to play Republic or Imperials for standard swap (or technically Rebels or Sith, but they aren't very good at it), or you could play Sith for a weird unique swap. You aren't swapping in NR, Mandos, Vong, OR, or Separatists.


To be nit-picky, you can swap with mando's if you spend a lot on it :P

If I want a huge movement faction I can be any faction with swap, the "new" vong (getting there, while I like that the vong are more playable, they are the ones I think were dealt the most injustice flavor wise in the v-sets.) or greater mobile with the NR till the cows come home. I feel/fear it is only a matter of time before we see V-set swaps for the mandos and the OR as they are really the only two factions without massive movement avaliable.


Greater Mobile isn't even close to the same kind of movement as swap, galloping attack, tow cable, or lift. They're all movement breakers, but they all work very differently and have to be played with different strategies. Your idea of a "flavor" seems to be something like "movement breaking", while I really think a better way to see it is the more refined idea of swap vs. levitation vs. high Speed vs. Greater Mobile Attack. All those things work differently and are different flavors, even though they are under the heading of "movement breaking".

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Echo wrote:
It seems to me like you have a very specific idea of what YOU want the flavor of each faction to be, and you don't want it to expand anywhere beyond that. Well, that's not really a feasible desire, and it doesn't line up with the lore we are building on.


I do not want the existing flavor of the factions to be further homogenized for the sake of balance. I want to see the factions make up for their weaknesses with other, unique strengths that the rest of the factions do not have. While I know it is MUCH easier to simply balance the factions by giving them all access to similar abilities, I think it would be better to try and give each faction its own unique flair and balance them against each other. Again, I know it will be hard based on previous sets and there is a LOT of damage control to take into account. However, it should not be fixed by chopping out the base of a faction and replacing it with something else entirely.


I think this is more than anything a disagreement of scale; you want each faction to be VERY different, but all still playable. Not only is that INCREDIBLY difficult to design (seriously, "different but equal" is one of the hardest things to do in game design), but I don't think it makes for a fun game. It's like we've made 10 different flavors of ice cream, and you're complaining that they should actually be 10 different kinds of desserts altogether.

There's going to be similarities between the factions, but there will also be differences. To see those, maybe you need to narrow your scope from looking at "high damage" as a flavor to "high melee damage" vs "high non-melee damage". Then you can further refine it to "high burst damage" vs "high ongoing damage" (as in, over multiple rounds). Instead of "movement breaking" you can look at the difference between "1 turn movement breaking" (that's stuff like GMA, things that don't require any setup), "2 turn movement breaking" (that's stuff like Levitation or Revan's swap, things that require 1 character to move a second character into position), and "3 turn movement breaking" (that's stuff like standard Panaka or Thrawn swap, where you first have to move character A into position, use character B to swap them with character C, then use character C now that they're in place). That's how I view the game, and it allows us to make a much more balanced and varied game while maintaining different flavors between all the factions.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Well, let me first start this off by saying that I was very disappointed by V-set 2 and absolutely hate some of the pieces released in this set, such as Weir. But after seeing vset 3, it no longer matters to me. V-Set 3 is by and far the best/funnest set of minis I have seen released, period. Better then any of the WoTC sets and the best out of the v-sets by far. I will say that I do agree that bastilla is kind of a retarded piece in terms of power to cost, but who cares? with all the stuff that has been released and with all the options now available to all factions it really makes no difference now. When you combine the three v-sets with the WoTC pieces there are so many options for playable/fun squads for every faction it is ridiculous to say they are all the same. Sure if you want to you could make some imperial beat squads that resemble some republic beat squads and you could make some mobile shooter squads and super stealth squads, but who cares because you can also make any other type of squad you want to and chances are it will suprise you with how good it can be. Heck I recently lost a game to Luke farmboy, lol. And the great thing was I had fun loosing to it, so job well done v-set designers, job well done.


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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:35 pm 
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Hang on a second... can we talk a bit more about this Ice Cream that you've made? Where do I donate?

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:21 pm 
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I don't think we could ship it through customs Kezz. If you ever come to the states though, ice cream on us.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:30 am 
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Echo wrote:
I think this is more than anything a disagreement of scale; you want each faction to be VERY different, but all still playable. Not only is that INCREDIBLY difficult to design (seriously, "different but equal" is one of the hardest things to do in game design), but I don't think it makes for a fun game. It's like we've made 10 different flavors of ice cream, and you're complaining that they should actually be 10 different kinds of desserts altogether.

There's going to be similarities between the factions, but there will also be differences. To see those, maybe you need to narrow your scope from looking at "high damage" as a flavor to "high melee damage" vs "high non-melee damage". Then you can further refine it to "high burst damage" vs "high ongoing damage" (as in, over multiple rounds). Instead of "movement breaking" you can look at the difference between "1 turn movement breaking" (that's stuff like GMA, things that don't require any setup), "2 turn movement breaking" (that's stuff like Levitation or Revan's swap, things that require 1 character to move a second character into position), and "3 turn movement breaking" (that's stuff like standard Panaka or Thrawn swap, where you first have to move character A into position, use character B to swap them with character C, then use character C now that they're in place). That's how I view the game, and it allows us to make a much more balanced and varied game while maintaining different flavors between all the factions.

Damn if only this boards got something like quote selected text, this would have been soooo much easier (Try it, it is really good :D ). I'm too lazy and tired from work to quote all to whom I would like to respond so it will be to all then:

If I could drop my 5 cents:
Each faction should be Unique. But it is literally impossible to keep it that way. I love what was done with door control in the newest Vset. Sure, override is still better, but now we have lots of ways to deal with doors. And they fit factions flavour-wise. It's a little thing, but it does really help to grow the game.
Boris assured us that we will NEVER get force battery for Republic or CE granting evade for droid etc. If that ever happened I would quit the game right away. Vsets helped lesser factions rise to competetive level but there are some boundaries and good that designers know of them. I already hate that Swap is avaliable to Rebels (but let's be honest, who plays with it? Rebel scums have much better and fitting them Luke with Levitation) and Republic (well it's there, not much for me to do about it. Got used to it) Sith (same as Rebels).

While I personally don't like Bastila JM, I get why we got her. OR needed a game changer. Much like Vongs, who got Yammosk. Vongs were in a bit better situation before Vsets, they needed less push than OR which I never faced in my 6 years with this game (prior to Vset). It's not like only forgotten factions got boost from Vset (I will give an example on Imperials which I am playing)- I like Weir who brings back Stom Commandos to the game, Mohc- Dark Troopers, GARY- finally( :!: ) cunning for troopers, Nightsister Mother - Sith Witches, damn even Vader from R&R helps! While maitaing to create something new- Celeste Morne, Malakili (both boost Savage characters like hell, something which they really needed) Atris (helps Echani as well as all characters in your squad), Palleon (totally changes on how you prepare for skirmish if ur playing him, plus he is quite good shooter :P), Zann (bribery is fun!) as well as Wuher (no more mouse droid walls). The thing is that we will still need key pieces from the past, but now we can dust off all of those which we had in our collections but rarely (or maybe even never) played.

Huge damage has been brought up. We had it in the past (GMA Twin+ Double) and we had got throught it. Nowdays, the issue (at least for me) is with defense I would say. Many new pieces (and old ones - Gowk I hate you) are now able to withstand lots and lost of damage. So the problem now lies not with how much damage you can dish out, but if the damage will be taken. It might not be a great example, but I haven't used my Cad Bane in over a year (and I really like it!). I now prefer to rely on sure-thing-damage squads, in which CB doesn't fit.

Cheers,
KomiX :royalg:


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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:12 am 
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komix wrote:
Boris assured us that we will NEVER get force battery for Republic or CE granting evade for droid etc.


Hang on. I said those things would never happen as long as I have something to say about it. I cannot speak for the entire group, and I do not work on every set that is produced. I know from my conversations with Rob, and from looking at the stuff he designed, that he wasn't really keen on those concepts, either.

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While I personally don't like Bastila JM, I get why we got her. OR needed a game changer.


It does, but that's not the only reason she was made the way she was. Go back and play the original KotoR video game if you haven't already. Her Battle Meditation was the envy of both sides, and the way we portrayed it is still just a shadow of what she did with it. But it's a lot more in flavor than the original version. We could have made any kind of game changer without making her, but this killed two birds with one stone.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:46 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Hang on. I said those things would never happen as long as I have something to say about it. I cannot speak for the entire group, and I do not work on every set that is produced. I know from my conversations with Rob, and from looking at the stuff he designed, that he wasn't really keen on those concepts, either.

That's good enough for me. If 2 out of 3 men from creators group feel the same, then I should be able to sleep safely.


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It does, but that's not the only reason she was made the way she was. Go back and play the original KotoR video game if you haven't already. Her Battle Meditation was the envy of both sides, and the way we portrayed it is still just a shadow of what she did with it. But it's a lot more in flavor than the original version. We could have made any kind of game changer without making her, but this killed two birds with one stone.

Well to be honest I hate KotoR games due to their technological advance (see technology in Sith War or Dark Lords of the Sith, in Kotor we have tech better then in prequels...come on! But it is a discussion for another time and topic). I played both, and liked part 2 much better (played with Restoration Mode) due to greater darkness and Kreia :)
As for Bastila Shan, I do know that not every ability/FP from video game can be translated into board game- different mechanics. My only problem with her is that she starts with 3 Fp which means she can use ABM in the first round (althought I haven't seen any1 do it yet); good thing that ABM replaces turn and cost this much;
Like I said before: OR surely (even more than Vongs) needed boost and they got it. I don't know about another game changer you're talking about that could have been, but this one is enough:)
Now, if in current situation OR were to be given force battery- that would be problematic. As of this day, game still relies heavilly on CE's, although I like where the whole character mechanics is going, especially with plans for Rebels without using Rieekan.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:29 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
komix wrote:
Boris assured us that we will NEVER get force battery for Republic or CE granting evade for droid etc.


Hang on. I said those things would never happen as long as I have something to say about it. I cannot speak for the entire group, and I do not work on every set that is produced. I know from my conversations with Rob, and from looking at the stuff he designed, that he wasn't really keen on those concepts, either.



I'll just add that you also know most of us, if not all, agree with those statements as well :).

And while I can understand the desire of many people to have reassurances that we won't break the game by adding X, it really has to come down to giving your opinion (as Jedi Master and Komix have been thankfully doing here) and in the end, trusting the designers. We know much of this stuff. As long time players, we know what should be generally "avoided".

But even if you fully trust us, it's not impossible that we will one day make something that breaks the game. Even with the process we've set out, we will eventually miss something in PT. Maybe we won't, but I'd lean towards we will. All I ask is that you trust us in that if/when we do so we will fix it without ruining the game.

As for faction flavor, I see it in the individual pieces. WotC put things out there that have noting to do with flavor (Reeikan???) but added powerful game mechanics. Sometimes that's what we will do. However, we chose as a group to always tie these to flavor (Bastilla and Yammosk have both been given as tremendous examples of where we have done so in set 1).

There's a couple of ways people design (and each of us do all of these at times).
1. Find the character on Wookiepedia/comic/game/book and read up. Design a rough sketch of all that's there on this person. Balance, then PT.

Alternately
2. Find a concept we want to add to a faction. Look on Wookiepedia/comic/game/book for a character that would fit the desired concept. Begin with the concept, add in flavor of the character we chose, balance and PT.

Most of this is done with 1, but 2 is important at times as well. You might see 2 as an example of ignoring flavor, but its actually quite the opposite. It actually adds a lot of flavor to the factions and helps us insure we are thinking about faction balance/flavor all at once, rather than in isolated pieces.

Classic example for set 3. For years, I've thought that reserves, reinforcements were abilities that were perfect for the Vong invasion. Heck, they had people hiding for years preparing for it... Yep WotC made the Prae Vong figures and did almost nothing flavorful or powerful with them (anyone play the Prae Vong War ever after sealed?) I was very disappointed. So I began the idea of Da'gara with thinking about who would logically fit this concept. I thought originally of a new Nom Anor, but decided I liked doing a new Nom with later ability focus rather than a second invasion Nom, so went for another character. That's how I got to the Prae leader, Dagara. Not only did he give me a great chance to introduce the reserve/reinforcement natural flavor to the faction, but I also got to add a small fix to the PVW. Further, as we worked him, we decided to introduce one of our door concepts for the vong on him as well, to give another little used figure something to do.

End result was an incredibly flavorful piece, that allows a player to play a competitive Vong squad, entirely with Vong pieces - no fringe needed (Vong flavor desire number 1 for years from Vong fans), and also one that feels like you are playing out the invasion. I absolutely love Da'Gara and how the Vong of set 3, with 1-2 and WotC pieces work so well together. And look at this, we did it all without doing anything to their strengths or weaknesses.

With that said, there are future things that are likely to come from other factions. For example, I am going to attempt to created a Tarpals like ability for the Vong in one of these sets. I'm not positive it will work, or make it though the design process, let alone PT, but I'm going to attempt it one of these days. I think it adds power to the great flavorful abilities of the Vong (double Razerbug anyone?) which actually makes the flavor of the faction stand out even more. All this, but starting with a CE from another faction. Now, with that said, I'm sure I won't do it exactly the same as Tarpals, but you get the idea. There is literally no logic to the idea that using game mechanics first introduced in one faction in another are automatically flavor limiting. In most cases, they are flavor expanding.

In the end, the real issue I see JM in your posts (and thank you by the way, even if my responses seem harsh), is that there are many expectations from many different people. For everyone who wants completely disparate factions, there are 10 people who want "NR needs X". Further, we as designers (and remember, we've already used well over 10 different people just in design alone through the first 4 sets) have our own desires and expectations. But I (and others as well, just not going to speak for them) do look extensively at the community wants. And I specifically make multiple minis that I wouldn't make myself in every set I do (see NR R2PO). But even when I don't want it, once decided, I do my best to give it a good place in the game. (again see NR R2PO).

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:25 pm 
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I dont understand WHY OR and Republic shouldnt get a batter for force powers hell almost every faction but vong has one lol so really why not...yall made Mace Windu and Darth Zannah and they're pretty broke so whats the problem with force batteries? lol then ya went so far as to just straight give vong printed cloaked...lol so why the big "its too broke" about giving those factions force batteries...couldnt be that terrible. Droids gettin evade is not for me i could care less since most things that matter have evade droids dont concern me lol force batteries seem more fun for screwy ideas...if your gonna make broken figs might as well make it fun


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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:16 pm 
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BFBH713 wrote:
I dont understand WHY OR and Republic shouldnt get a batter for force powers hell almost every faction but vong has one lol so really why not...yall made Mace Windu and Darth Zannah and they're pretty broke so whats the problem with force batteries? lol then ya went so far as to just straight give vong printed cloaked...lol so why the big "its too broke" about giving those factions force batteries...couldnt be that terrible. Droids gettin evade is not for me i could care less since most things that matter have evade droids dont concern me lol force batteries seem more fun for screwy ideas...if your gonna make broken figs might as well make it fun


Everything that has been made into a Vset has been throughly playetested before release. This includes Windu and Vong with Cloaked. The last thing anyone on the Vset teams and playtesters want to do is release something into the game that will not make it fun. This game is officially dead outside of the members here and Bloomilk. The last thing ANYONE wants to do is create a bad play enviroment and run off any of the remaining players we have left. That would be absolutely self defeating.. especially with as much work as people put into a Vset.

As far as OR and R getting a force battery there are a few reasons why it should never be done. The first reason is for flavor. The Jedi of the Republic or Old Republic NEVER relied on one central person to accomplish anything. The Batteries are all on the Dark side since it was usually one Master with a bunch of apprentices/slaves depending on that said Master to accomplish anything of value. On the Light side, Jedi are trained to be self reliant. Yes they have to generally follow the will or the Jedi council but that hasn't been exactly followed at all. For example the Exile telling the Council to shove it and joining Revan, or Qui-Gon declaring that Anakin will be trained despite Yoda's wishes.

In the theme of the game it would be bad because of both the OR and R dependancy on Force points. Gowk for example would be truely broke if he could rely on 3 force points a turn coming from a figure like Palpy in chair. The general way to beat GOWK is to run him out of force points then bring him down with multiple attacks.. A battery would NEVER allow that to happen. In the OR it would over allow the use of the Amazing force powers that the OR has.. Thon repulsing turn after turn or a Bastilla that never runs out of force points for meditation.. I love OR and while that would be like Mana from heaven, I wouldnt want it because no one would want to play anything I put out that had that lovely gold logo on the card.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:40 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:54 pm 
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Echo wrote:
Everything echo said


Blanket response possible, so gonna not post a scrolly scrolly. In essence what I am asking for is that primary components of the game be made playable and that, whenever possible, the ideas behind a faction be considered. So, slight explanation;

Vong are melee heavy. The vong were melee people, didn't like the blasters much. Yeah, it makes them hard to run in some cases but I don't think concentrating on a way to make them fight at range is the best idea.

billiv15 wrote:
With that said, there are future things that are likely to come from other factions. For example, I am going to attempt to created a Tarpals like ability for the Vong in one of these sets. I'm not positive it will work, or make it though the design process, let alone PT, but I'm going to attempt it one of these days. I think it adds power to the great flavorful abilities of the Vong (double Razerbug anyone?) which actually makes the flavor of the faction stand out even more. All this, but starting with a CE from another faction. Now, with that said, I'm sure I won't do it exactly the same as Tarpals, but you get the idea. There is literally no logic to the idea that using game mechanics first introduced in one faction in another are automatically flavor limiting. In most cases, they are flavor expanding.


Things like the above are the type of solution I like when it comes to factions. No, I don't think it is homogenizing factions, I think it is a good idea. However, there are other ideas presented on previous V-sets that I did not like. The biggest example was the yammosk. Yes, the yammosk was a coordinator, that speaks to me like a mas though, not a give everything unlimited range. Like I mentioned there, I would have loved to see something that played to the vongs strengths (crab armor and force immunity) to protect the commanders/skill people rather than see something that is a must add to every vong squad.

So, while there are likely a lot of "this needs this", I believe it would be best to give them something like what they want that is faction specific. Vong need range, use bill's idea. Seps need Dark Jedi, give a melee droid. NR wants some swapping, give them some speedy units. Figure out the reason behind the request (what is needed in the faction) not how to add a specific ability (or person) to a faction.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:36 pm 
Unnamed Stormtrooper
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well every faction almost has a battery...theres a few things in other factions thats just as dirty as gowk or bastila never running out of force points....sooo there should be no problem givin OR or R a force battery...the story line crap is w/e...i like the story but dont really care about it...They gave vong with force immunity one with force powers....um...hypocrite type much?? then why not give OR or R a battery..wouldnt make it less fun....hell might mix it up ALOT more ...give more answers to the mouse dump bs..or nom bomb bs...i see it as more answers..not a hinderance...bastilas already overpowered...with her bs runnin from first act of a round to the LAST act of the next one...yea..thats fair...or the sheer POWER behind Windu...yea..playtested both real fair on that one too...sooo if we're gonna go down the "broke" road lets do it with some more fun...OR and R deserve a force battery...HELL EVEN SITH have a spirit and hologram to play with...so in essence its REALLY not that terrible to give those two a battery...its the story line purists that are being wah about it...i think it fixes things...hell why would it matter to give them batteries anyway?? no one really plays batteries that competatively anyway...not that big of a deal to put them out...and if people wanna stick to the story line like that then who says anyone with force powers "Runs out of power anyway"...no jedi in the movies ran out of power...even with a battery they can run out...and whats it matter if gowk does take a lil longer to kill he already takes it forever anyway since they let his text loose...they want ideas for vset 4 well heres 2 decent ones that people could have more fun with than tryin to stick to the story all the time..or the games...god shake it up a lil more...even if gowk or bastila hada battery...make the battery killable and not a spirit...duh....palpy on throne is killable...bastilas killable its all killable so its not so broke...seems dumb to mix things with other factions but leave batteries out...if your gonna cross faction lines to make other factions playable dont pick and choose ...make it fair..OR and R deserve a battery


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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:38 pm 
Grand Admiral
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I love the v-sets so far, I think that 99% of what you've done (excluding Poggle Bombs, and even with them I see a point) is wonderful. I think the game is getting more flavoursome and that the options of competitive and almost competitive squads has expanded a lot since Masters of the Force. Keep up the good work!


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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:32 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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BFBH713 wrote:
They gave vong with force immunity one with force powers....um...hypocrite type much??
You might want to read his story. We didn't make that up at all. It came directly from the official sources. Sorry, if you were referring to LFL and not us.

BFBH713 wrote:
then why not give OR or R a battery..wouldnt make it less fun....hell might mix it up ALOT more ...give more answers to the mouse dump bs..
Wait what??? What would an OR or Rep force battery do to mouse droids? Also did you even look at Vengeance and Cantina Brawl???? I'm wondering if you even know what a mouse droid dump is, or if you just read the term here on a forum.

BFBH713 wrote:
or nom bomb bs..
Now I really know you can't be serious. Nom Bombs???? That complaint hasn't been heard since the summer of 2006.

BFBH713 wrote:
seems dumb to mix things with other factions but leave batteries out...if your gonna cross faction lines to make other factions playable dont pick and choose ...make it fair..OR and R deserve a battery
Ok fine, you think they do. Dennis and I are just two designers. But you will find that most of the competitive players out there don't want batteries in those two factions either. Not to mention that its not really in their flavor (story wise) as Audri pointed out. As for the slippery slope argument, well I'll simply respond with this. The slippery slope is the adult version of a toddler throwing a temper tantrum. Makes a lot of noise, but in the end won't get mom to buy the toy. 1 end, is never the same as the other end. There are things that are good crossovers and things that would make poor ones. Good designers negotiate the differences, even when they are slight. As it happens, in this case, you very few see this one as a "slight" issue at all.

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