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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:34 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
To be entirely honest the new Maul has never shown up at an event. Actually since Savage Oppress showed up last week this means he has more tourney time for us then Maul did. The new Maul is downright smexy but I don't think anyone has figured out how to build around him yet.


I did place with the new Maul two weeks ago. Revan and Maul, with 2 Acolytes. Did fairly well, if I must say so.


Awsome sauce, which event was that?

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:37 pm 
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The Capital City champs in Lansing.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
The Capital City champs in Lansing.


Oh that as you!! Cool beans I didn't make the connection.. you totally whooped up on my friend playing Nom Bombs.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:47 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
@Jedi Master - It sounds to me like you love the "underdog" game, where you have to really think about squad building and tactics to win against difficult if not impossible odds. Honestly, I think you can still play that way even with the cards the design teams have created. It's true that nothing has been done to help the old Mace - quite honestly I pondered over it for more than a year and couldn't come up with an idea that would make him better without making already better pieces that much more powerful at the same time, so if you have a suggestion, I would love to hear (or read) it.


Not that "old mace" (clone strike mace) was on the top of my list. But here is a bat at some CE's I think would benefit older mini's.

Lightsaber Trainer (republic)

CE:
Characters with "Lightsaber Precision" gain "Lightsaber Duelist"
Characters with "Lightsaber Sweep" gain "Crowd Fighting"

There are 12 characters with Lightsaber Precision, the majority of them are from CS (and are Republic). While it isn't much of a bump, mace with 26 D is a beast, and only the old mace (of the maces) has it.

LS Sweep is a very underutilized ability. But, +2 attack for every extra character you can sweep, that is going to beef some of the losers up. Again, very few newer characters have the ability.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Lastly, if you're biggest complaint about the v-sets is that the Vong got "uber minis," well then I take that as a compliment. Seriously. The Rebels, Republic, and Separatist had been getting "uber minis" for the better part of 4 years before the Vong even got something that could compete in a casual-serious game, let alone a tournament. Why should the Vong faction be any less deserving? It's part of the game and deserves a place at the table, the same as all the other factions.


I think the bigger complaint is that the "flavor" of factions is being homogenized. WotC was already starting it but the V-sets cemented it. When I think Rebels, I think special abilities, big uniques, expensive scrubs, high mobility, and few commanders (Win with 2-5 people). Empire, few uniques, several cheap scrubs, beastly commander effects (Win with numbers of CE buffed scrubs 8-12). Republic, Lightsabers leading clones (Win through synergy). Seperatists, Droids with non-droid leaders (Win with large numbers of cheap units 15-20). Old Republic, Unique Lightsabers leading cheap non-unique Lightsabers (Overwhelm in melee with numbers 5-10). New republic, see Empire only with more uniques and few low scrubs (Somewhere between Rebels and Empire). Vong, direct leadership and tough people (Win by outlasting and in a tight group). Sith, overwhelming and expensive individuals (Win by damage, 1-2 people). Mando's, well trained expensive units with superior commanders (Win with a 4-6 man cell).

What we have now is; Rebels (Win through massive damage), Empire (Win through massive damage), Republic (Win through massive damage), Separatists (Win through massive damage), NR (Win through massive damage), OR (Win through massive damage), Vong (Win through massive damage), Sith (Win through massive damage), Mando's (Win through massive damage)

Every faction has the same stuff available to it, it seems. I want to play with cheap scrubs beefed by CE's where the commander is hidden across the map. Congratulations, pick any faction but Mando's. I want a faction where I can have high mobility. Anybody will give it to you. I want massive beaters (deathstar squad), pick a faction any faction. They are all the same thing. Yes, any faction can be competitive, but it doesn't make sense to me to have a massive rebel scrub army beefed by commanders in the back. It doesn't make sense to have the Empire using excessive mobility to out maneuver opponents. Why would the Old Republic need a million shooters when it has Jedi coming out the butt? Why do the Mandalorians need to compete with the Sith in melee combat? Why do the Sith need commanders to boost scrubs?

My biggest complaint about the V-sets is they lack a soul. "this faction doesn't have this available to it, lets give them it" seems to be the calling card. I want to see the new mini's play to the strengths of the faction, not to the games strengths. No more insane hit to costs outside sith, no more vong who can reach across the map in a turn, no more rebel tanks, no more OR shooter buffs, no more Empire non-unique doom units. It is a game, yes, but Factions need to represent something aside from "oh, I can't have this specific commander, this one is almost as good though." I want to see the V-sets play to factions even more. (and it sounds like you might be from the original post)

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:05 pm 
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The thing is, that is highly subjective on what the factions can be. The big four are big enough to have multiple themes. And it is all down to interpretation. Diversifying a faction is what makes a faction good. Droids is big for Seps, no doubt, but why can't living Seps be made? There is plenty of lore to justify trying to make living Sep grunts, not just the big names. Same as having some beatsticks for Rebels, Force users for Empire, Troopers for both Old Republic and Sith (especially now that The Old Republic is giving a lot of content for those areas). The Vong they are building to be more in line with lore, trying to get them off their Fringe dependency (though, I think a Fringe Peace Brigade option for Vong is perfect). I look forward to seeing Factions get MORE options, and MORE flavors.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:31 pm 
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One thing that is an issue as far as flavor goes is that the star wars Canon is a repeat of itself. The OR, R, Empire and NR are really one giant huge faction broken up by perceived times. Three of the four had a jedi order and all four of them dealt with a rebel alliance.. Mando, Seps, Rebels and Vong. Within that list only Vong has any real unique flavor of its own. This game has two problems that really don't let it become fully what your wanting.. A. Its a game with tournies that needs to have competitive balance and B. Its based on already existing source material. Those two things are a blessing and a huge curse when it comes from a design angle. So far in the V-sets each of the teams have done a fantastic job making the game still feel like star wars, and for the first time in history I feel like any faction is playable at an event.. While that might not satisfy a collector or someone sitting on a set of Clone Strike it does encourage people to play the game and really playing the game is what matters if this game is going to last any length of time whatsoever.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:39 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
One thing that is an issue as far as flavor goes is that the star wars Canon is a repeat of itself. The OR, R, Empire and NR are really one giant huge faction broken up by perceived times. Three of the four had a jedi order and all four of them dealt with a rebel alliance.. Mando, Seps, Rebels and Vong. Within that list only Vong has any real unique flavor of its own. This game has two problems that really don't let it become fully what your wanting.. A. Its a game with tournies that needs to have competitive balance and B. Its based on already existing source material. Those two things are a blessing and a huge curse when it comes from a design angle. So far in the V-sets each of the teams have done a fantastic job making the game still feel like star wars, and for the first time in history I feel like any faction is playable at an event.. While that might not satisfy a collector or someone sitting on a set of Clone Strike it does encourage people to play the game and really playing the game is what matters if this game is going to last any length of time whatsoever.


These are some really good points.

For example, Jedi_Master, you say that when you think of Rebels you think of expensive non-uniques, but lots of big uniques too. Well, the Rebel Alliance had a full army. That's something that exists in Star Wars lore. That might not be the first thing you think of when you think of Rebels, but it's there, so minis can be made from it. Same thing with Sith; you think of having just a few really expensive uniques, but there was a full, strong Sith army! A squad of Sith Army troopers lead by some non-unique Sith Army commanders should totally be a possibility! Why? Because it was part of Star Wars, and just because when YOU think of Sith you think of the Sith Lords doesn't mean that everyone else does. Maybe someone thinks the Sith Army is totally awesome and loves playing tons of Sith Army dudes. Why tell them "You can't, Sith are just about the Sith Lords"?

In addition, I don't agree that factions all have the same flavor. Yes, every faction can do a lot of damage; that's literally the only way to win the game. Do damage. But there are tons of sub-themes; Separatists are the best with Droids. Republic has the best movement (yes, other factions have movement breakers, but nobody does it as well as Republic). Mandos have the best denial. Rebels are mostly glass canons. OR have high-cost light side force users, Sith have high-cost dark side ones. Vong are best when swarming with non-uniques, and have the Force Immunity flavor as well as getting more and more self-reliant while most other factions use Fringe characters. Imperials have either the big single beatstick squads (like Lord Vader) or the trooper squads, as well as some of the strongest commanders. New Republic is mostly a conglomeration of styles from Rebels, Imperials, and Republic.

Yes, there is some overlap. Yes, some factions have multiple flavors instead of just one strong flavor that is true for every squad you make with that faction. That's different than making every faction the same. If you want a really heavy movement faction, you play Republic or some very specific Separatist squads (Lancer basically). If you want swap, you have to play Republic or Imperials for standard swap (or technically Rebels or Sith, but they aren't very good at it), or you could play Sith for a weird unique swap. You aren't swapping in NR, Mandos, Vong, OR, or Separatists.

It seems to me like you have a very specific idea of what YOU want the flavor of each faction to be, and you don't want it to expand anywhere beyond that. Well, that's not really a feasible desire, and it doesn't line up with the lore we are building on.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:06 pm 
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The factions do each have unique flavor. You will never see an Imperial piece with Disruptive (at least as long as I have anything to say about it). The same is true for a Republic Force battery, or a Droid CE that grants Evade (as far as I know there is only one Droid with Evade, and it is a melee piece).

I think the pieces that have been discussed have the flavor of their faction built in. We worked very hard to define the flavor of all the factions more than 2 years ago, and I believe each of the design teams have followed that model fairly closely. OR is the go-to faction for the Force. Their's was the age when anything was possible through the Force. For all the hatred of Atris and Bastila, no one has ever criticized those pieces for lacking the flavor from their source material. Bastila's Battle Meditation was so valuable to Darth Malak that he captured and tortured her to turn her to the dark side so she would use her power for the Sith. Atris sat in her temple chamber and used the Force to turn the Echani Handmaidens against the Jedi Exile.

I will acknowledge that there have been some missteps with damage dealing, but I think overall we've been careful about increasing damage output. It might surprise you to see how many times we've taken damage boosts off of a character rather than add them just because we thought the output was too high. My only real regrets (and yes, I share in some of the blame) is the Battle of Theed Darth Maul and, for reasons you might not suspect, Bastila Shan. Both of them needed a lot more playtesting than they got and probably would have appeared quite different had they received more attention. I expected that the gaming communities would have meta'ed the pieces out of the game through the options we gave, but what I discovered was that no one really took them seriously until crunch time. That is probably less true of Maul, but nevertheless it is my assessment.

Regardless, this is a combat game, and dealing damage is how you win. Increasing the damage output speeds up the game, and in tournaments time is a major factor. There is still a lot of strategy and positioning that each player must do in order to win, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to 1 or 2 dice rolls that determine the outcome, and it has been that way since Rebel Storm. I was playing when the game first came out, and I remember what squads looked like - especially the ones that won. People went for the characters that had the best chance of hitting and dealing the most damage. Aqualish Assassin, Han Solo, Darth Vader, Sith Lord, Emperor Palpatine, Boba Fett, etc. No one brought a squad of Rebel/Storm Troopers backed by 1-2 Officer and expected to win (and yes, I know the story of the guy who won a tournament with 9 Elite Stormtroopers, but I have no idea what his opponents were fielding - I can just imagine from what I know of the early days of the game).

Anyway, the point is that I disagree completely with the statement that the V-sets "have no soul." They have more soul in them than most of the stuff WotC did.

I like your idea for "characters with X get Y" and I agree that LS Sweep is underused. The problem is that if we did something like that, we would have to consider it for every new piece that we wanted to give Sweep to, especially working under the rule that characters without a lightsaber on their base have to have a Force power with lightsaber in its name or the lightsaber special ability to be considered as having a lightsaber. You can't imagine the challenge that presents when we don't want to just dole out Lightsaber Deflect/Reflect/Defense, and can't find a good lightsaber-wielding mini to represent the character.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
My only real regrets (and yes, I share in some of the blame) is the Battle of Theed Darth Maul and, for reasons you might not suspect, Bastila Shan. Both of them needed a lot more playtesting than they got and probably would have appeared quite different had they received more attention. I expected that the gaming communities would have meta'ed the pieces out of the game through the options we gave, but what I discovered was that no one really took them seriously until crunch time. That is probably less true of Maul, but nevertheless it is my assessment.


Bastilla is perfect in every way shape and form.. It's not her fault people don't like getting hit for +10 damage while they are over dependent on commander effects ;)

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Audri, I expected the presence of Bastila would strengthen the presence of Vong and maybe Grand Admiral Thrawn. They ripped through her like butter in the tests I played.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Audri, I expected the presence of Bastila would strengthen the presence of Vong and maybe Grand Admiral Thrawn. They ripped through her like butter in the tests I played.


Yeah Vong has done that pretty effectively, but on the bright side it keeps her in balance and Vong has made a strong comeback. I tend to favor Bastilla a lot so here locally nearly ever player is packing a nice collection of Vong. (not me.. My fangirlism would set me on fire if I ever played Vong and Mandos) I'm sure Troll and Toad and Coolstuff thanks you for helping them getting all those sales. I've been pondering this and all really Vong would need to be kept in check against her would be to change the ruling of her effect that it does effect Vong since it doesnt actually target a paticular Vong or Vong attack and effects boardwide. This would be pretty similar to the Wrath of God destroys Pro-White creatures in Magic.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:40 pm 
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We probably won't change that. We hammered out Force ability concepts for a long time before we started designing figures with them. To change it now would be to affect a ton of other Force abilities that the Vong should be able to counter just as easily as they do ABM. :)

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
We probably won't change that. We hammered out Force ability concepts for a long time before we started designing figures with them. To change it now would be to affect a ton of other Force abilities that the Vong should be able to counter just as easily as they do ABM. :)


Can't blame a girl for trying right? But no keeping her in balance with the Vong is probably doing the Vong a favor. Gotta give players some reason to play those foul cretins... LOL.

It also really gives an OR player something to think about. I'm not trying to talk smack but I'm pretty confident I could have finished 3-1 with maybe a top 4 finish in Lansing with Bastilla had I not had to play Vong in Round 2 which like Vong does completely wrecked my world up. So basically I'm trading some real strong matchups like against Mando and Rebel for the fact that I could end up just as screwed as they are against Vong.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:58 pm 
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She still grants the +10 damage to her allies when making attacks, you just can't suppress their commander effects. Though it is a tough matchup for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
She still grants the +10 damage to her allies when making attacks, you just can't suppress their commander effects. Though it is a tough matchup for sure.


At Lansing that match was ended with Mira with ten hit points left and a healthy R7, Nom anor with ten hit points left and a full health War Cordinator. Both of us had Gambit pts to cover after Nom or Mira died.. he won the final iniative. Basically though it took me making tons of poison saves and having a few lucky breaks through out the game to get that far. We had playtested that match several other times and I NEVER got that close to a win.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Ah. Nom Bombs. Treadwell Droids are your friend, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:19 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Ah. Nom Bombs. Treadwell Droids are your friend, lol.


Yup that was the reason it was anywhere close...

But putting the thread back on topic, is there a paticular goal for each Vset?

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Goal?

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:42 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Goal?


No set direction or what you hope each set accomplishes?

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:00 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Goal?


No set direction or what you hope each set accomplishes?


For me there is. There's a lot, actually.

There is usually one big theme for the set (Renegades and Rogues was about Pilots, Pirates, stuff like that, Vengeance had kind of a "dark" theme, etc.), but I usually have a few small goals. In Vengeance, I wanted to set the groundwork for the Zann Consortium and SpecForce sub-factions, help take some emphasis away from Lobot + Gha + 10 Mouse Droids, and make the Lancer a bit less of a total Negative Play Experience for some certain squad types. I think each designer has their own set of small goals like these when they go into a set, and a good set is one that can incorporate each of them. You don't need more than 3-5 pieces that do a certain thing to get it across, so you can easily have lots of these little goals in a single set.

As far as full on goals that effect the entire set, there isn't much besides the basic theme. I guess the first 2 sets had the goal of bringing the bottom 4 factions into competitive play. Now our ongoing goal is to make good, interesting pieces that keep the game fresh but without too much powercreep.

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