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 Post subject: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:39 pm 
Master of the Order
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We are mid-way through the design process on the next v-set to be released, and there's a lot of exciting stuff in this set (just like all the others). The set name is Scum and Villainy (as I believe has already been stated), and we are doing a 12-card mini set just like we have done with the last two sets. This mini-set is called "Jedi and Sith." (Guess what's in it. :P )

The design team for this set includes myself, leshippy, urbanjedi, and Weeks. With three new faces on the team, the set has a unique and somewhat original feel to it. The guys have all come up with really fresh takes on the game that I think many people will really be glad to see. We've made it our focus with this set to shake up the meta. Four sets in, it's time to do something that spins the game on its head a little bit. While it's way too early to start showing off stat cards, I can tell you that with the advent of characters like Wuher and Tyber Zann in Vengeance, one of our goals has been to provide alternative means of recreating the utility functions of typical reinforcement characters. There's a consensus that it is unreasonable for the cheapest, weakest characters in the game to be the only ones who can counter the strongest ability, and that it is also a failing of the game that a great commander effect support ability like Relay Orders is on a piece that is rarely used that way. It's safe to say we're introducing a few new concepts with this set that attempt to circumvent those characters and their place in the game, especially since we've given the elements needed to "hate" them out as it is (above and beyond what was already in place, of course).

Secondly, rock squads deserve a chance in the game, and they are going to get one. The goal of a rock squad should be to defeat all of your opponent's figures or die trying, not drag the game to time with a single surviving character. (Don't worry though, paper and scissor squads get their fair share of counters, too.) :)

Finally, OT fans can rejoice because this set strives to do something not really ever done before - make the OT heroes the heart of the Rebel faction again. A Rebel squad should not start with Rieekan, Dodonna, Crix... it should start with, Han, Luke, Leia... etc. You can still start with Rieekan, Dodonna, Crix, if you want to, but you won't have to. :)

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:47 pm 
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I feel like eating McDonald's...I'M LOVING IT!!!!!1 I really like the design goals of this set.

Thanks for the update, Dennis.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Way to start teasing us early! Im already super excited. I was curious, as an avid player and a very frequent member of bloo milk, is there any way I might be able to wiggle in to the design team in some future sets? I love making custom sets and am a huge swm nerd. The only thing is I dont have hardly any public playing chances, as no one lives in Florida and I couldn't get to gencon as i have school. But either way send me a PM, I would like to help out any way I can.


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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Haven't all the other sets been shaking up the meta enough already? It seems every set we get brand new competitive squads. I'm looking forward to this next set! Keep up the good work designers!

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:05 am 
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While I don't mind V-sets or changing the meta, I have had problems with the way point values are being assigned to the new characters. Everything seems like it is 5-10 points below what it should be on the curve. The unusually high ratings of several of the minis from the V-sets (bloo-milk's 8+ category is disproportionately loaded with V-set mini's. Where most sets have 5-10, Vsets are almost half 8+'s) should show that as well. While I enjoy good miniatures/stats, the V-sets should not have become the meta for every faction and has done more to get me out of the game than get me into it.

Then again I think V-sets should be used to make the game fun, not win competitive play.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:22 am 
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Jedi_Master wrote:
While I don't mind V-sets or changing the meta, I have had problems with the way point values are being assigned to the new characters. Everything seems like it is 5-10 points below what it should be on the curve. The unusually high ratings of several of the minis from the V-sets (bloo-milk's 8+ category is disproportionately loaded with V-set mini's. Where most sets have 5-10, Vsets are almost half 8+'s) should show that as well. While I enjoy good miniatures/stats, the V-sets should not have become the meta for every faction and has done more to get me out of the game than get me into it.

Then again I think V-sets should be used to make the game fun, not win competitive play.


I wouldn't use Bloomilk's rating systems as an indication. While the averages may be higher, you definately need to compare the actual votes. The Vsets have a significantly less number of votes, thus, easier to get a higher average.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:24 am 
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Maybe its just me, but I think Rock is starting to take over the meta already. Celestial Warrior's "LoGOWKey" came out exceptionally strong at Lansing City champs and I know at my local store it has won a large majority of our events. Last two weeks have been variants of GOWK/CRITDU. Not saying I mind this though since as an OR player and even when I played Seps in the good 'ole days I preferred Rock style squads.

@Jedi Master. I can't start to begin to describe to you how much I disagree with you. If the Vsets didn't shake up the meta this game would get very stale very quickly. The Vsets allow problems to get fixed within the game instead of WOTC and Lucasfilms overwhelming push to make us play whatever Lucas wanted to push in the current set. This led to many faction being completely unplayable and an absurd amount of favortism for the Republic amoung others.. Remember Rebels 2009???

I don't know personally what drives most people to this game outside of my friends and playgroup. For many of them its more then just a great game experience, its a bit of fanbased loyalty to paticular factions and characters. The Vsets have really breathed some life into those really screwed over factions.. I got to play OR at a fairly big event and not feel stupid for it!!! That's sooo freaking awsome.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:48 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Jedi_Master wrote:
While I don't mind V-sets or changing the meta, I have had problems with the way point values are being assigned to the new characters. Everything seems like it is 5-10 points below what it should be on the curve. The unusually high ratings of several of the minis from the V-sets (bloo-milk's 8+ category is disproportionately loaded with V-set mini's. Where most sets have 5-10, Vsets are almost half 8+'s) should show that as well. While I enjoy good miniatures/stats, the V-sets should not have become the meta for every faction and has done more to get me out of the game than get me into it.

Then again I think V-sets should be used to make the game fun, not win competitive play.


So what you are saying is we should have never made a mace Windu that is actually playable and can stand up to something like a snow speeder squad? Or better yet we should have never listen to the community and made a new Maul.

Audri how many people were playing Maul at the tournament?

You can't begin to tell me that playing OR, Vong, or Sith were fun with the way WOTC left it. We are still working on Mandos.

As far as the meta goes i think that people always like to play what is new. I would imagine that the snow speeder squad is still quite playable. It is just human nature to try the new stuff. You can look at double lancers or IG-86 swarm and there are few if any v-set pieces in those squads. Also many of the NR squads that were played at last years regionals had only a few V-set pieces in them.

Of course if you look at OR, Vong, or Sith, then yes you are looking at more v-set pieces being played. Why? Well they are the factions that had the least love from WOTC and needed the most help from the v-sets.

Also keep in mind that there is night and day difference play for "fun" and playing "competitivaly". Playing for fun means that you can make all sort of house rules or say hey we are only playing reblel storm pieces and that is fine. it means you can play any map you want, blow up windows or play 1000 points. You can play Light vs Dark or recreate famous battles. As long as everyone agrees on the same rules, there is much fun to be had. Competitive play is in my opinion fun as well, but instead of just a house full of people agreeing on rules and such, there are 500 + people that need to agree.

i think the V-set are doing the job and I am proud to have been working on them since the beginning. If you don't like them, then that is your privilege. it is my privilege to disagree with you.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:01 am 
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To be entirely honest the new Maul has never shown up at an event. Actually since Savage Oppress showed up last week this means he has more tourney time for us then Maul did. The new Maul is downright smexy but I don't think anyone has figured out how to build around him yet.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:40 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
I wouldn't use Bloomilk's rating systems as an indication. While the averages may be higher, you definately need to compare the actual votes. The Vsets have a significantly less number of votes, thus, easier to get a higher average.


True enough, and I would wager there is some fanboy-ism involved. Still, it is a hard thing to overlook. Know of any other place where mini's are rated?

LESHIPPY wrote:
So what you are saying is we should have never made a mace Windu that is actually playable and can stand up to something like a snow speeder squad? Or better yet we should have never listen to the community and made a new Maul.


No, what I am saying is you should be making older units better. Old mace is useless? Mostly because new mini's put him out of date in a hurry. It is great that you are listening to the community as to who to make. I am trying to suggest what to make as well. More on that in a minute.

LESHIPPY wrote:
You can't begin to tell me that playing OR, Vong, or Sith were fun with the way WOTC left it. We are still working on Mandos.


I actually had a lot of fun playing mandos and vong. They were a challenge to make a squad with and a challenge to win with. None of them were the most competitive, I will agree with that, but why are they suddenly inundated with uber mini's?

LESHIPPY wrote:
As far as the meta goes i think that people always like to play what is new. I would imagine that the snow speeder squad is still quite playable. It is just human nature to try the new stuff. You can look at double lancers or IG-86 swarm and there are few if any v-set pieces in those squads. Also many of the NR squads that were played at last years regionals had only a few V-set pieces in them.


I think the part I was getting at is the new meta is untouchable for squads not tier one. IG-lancer squad problems? I took djemso and nombombs. Speeders got you down? Maps with narrow corrodors and accurate shot made their lives miserable. But, how are you suppose to deal with ridiculous jedi/sith who are beasts even without the force? 3-4 to 1 hit to cost range is a pain to deal with, even more so when the defense is neigh untouchable and the attack averages over 10 without support, even on lower cost mini's.

I would rather see the V-sets produce interesting mini's that aren't direct counters to things players view as a "problem". My favorite part of the V-sets so far has been the new commander effects, not the new minis designed to stop this or that meta.

LESHIPPY wrote:
Also keep in mind that there is night and day difference play for "fun" and playing "competitivaly". Playing for fun means that you can make all sort of house rules or say hey we are only playing reblel storm pieces and that is fine. it means you can play any map you want, blow up windows or play 1000 points. You can play Light vs Dark or recreate famous battles. As long as everyone agrees on the same rules, there is much fun to be had. Competitive play is in my opinion fun as well, but instead of just a house full of people agreeing on rules and such, there are 500 + people that need to agree.


Actually, I disagree with that definition. To me, playing "for fun" is when you play around with mid range squads or try to figure out uses for lesser mini's. My favorite "for fun" squad was one I called naboo defense force. It involved queen amadala, captin typho, mas, mon mothma, and a tun of naboo soldiers. Doesn't sound like much but it always gave people a run for their money till some of the more recent sets. That is my idea of a "for fun" squad. I would love to see more love for the underutilized minis. Not "I want to see them become meta" but "I want to see a solid mini that gives good benefits to minis without it being earth shattering."

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:06 pm 
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There HAS been powercreep in the V-sets...but that powercreep has shown itself in two ways:

1. The first is what I call "Balance-creep"...the underpowered factions (OR/Sith/Vong/Mando) have been given some powercreep pieces so that they can play on a balanced level with the other bigger factions. The powercreep creates balance...the evidence is this year's OR Championship winning squad.

2. The other powercreep (if you can even call it that) is replacing old and uncompetitive pieces (ie, Mace, Atton, Bastilla, Carth, etc) with new versions that are both cost-effective (which the others were definitely NOT) and also fun to use. The fact that these minis are competitive means that the older versions will likely never be played competitively again...but then, they were never use in a competitive squad anyway, so nothing has changed--people just have playable versions of the pieces they love.

There are a few minis that I'm not thrilled with, but I'll gladly take those ones with all the positive changes that the V-sets have brought.

All in all, I think the V-sets have been a phenomenal success. The game is more fun, and the meta more varied, now than ever before. There are more viable squad-types (when was the last time that a Rock squad did well?). Every faction can compete well at the top level. I'm pretty sure the game would be dead by now if it weren't for the V-sets. Staleness breeds boredom, and boredom leads to the death of any game.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:19 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Jedi Master - We can't fix all the problems at once.
Yes I realize that there are a truck load of Jedi in CS that never get used any more. We are working on fixing that.

All those bounty hunters that don't do much, we are working on that.

Mouse Droids got you down? We are working on it.

Want to play a bunch of Gungans or Ewoks? We are working on that.

We have 72 pieces to try to add fun, competitiveness, and fresh air into the game. With that we have 9 factions to try to even out. Our thought is you should be able to play any faction you want at a high level and know going into it that you have at least a 50/50 shot at winning.

"Spinning the game on it head" might be a bit much, but we are coming up with new abilites and powers that fit the characters we have chosen the make. With four people working on the design everyone has there favorites. Borris really likes the Original trilogy characters and is doing a great job developing those. The rest of us have added our input, but one person has to throw stuff out on the table. As usual there are going to be characters everyone knows. Then there are going to be characters people will be wondering about.

In the latest V-set vengeance I was happy to see commander effects that help out the ARC troopers. This is long overdue, but on the other hand so was fleshing out the lesser factions.

So we are working on getting more minis into the mix. i am not sure of the exact number but I think it is about 15 sets that WOTC made. Each sort of built off the other and with each brought it's own flavor to the table. We are just trying to take what was made and keep it moving forward and our sincere hope is that people still enjoy playing the game.

Here is a mini that should see more play after v-set 4, Rakgouls. if you don't have any you might want to pick up a couple. Some folks will like it and some won't. We can't please everyone all the time, but we try and we are having fun doing it. oh by the way no one is getting paid to do it either. There is a saying about a gift horse or something...i forget never mind.

Time to go to work.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Yes you want to get your Rakgouls... trust me!

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:00 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
Maybe its just me, but I think Rock is starting to take over the meta already. Celestial Warrior's "LoGOWKey" came out exceptionally strong at Lansing City champs and I know at my local store it has won a large majority of our events.


Which is why I said...

[quote]The goal of a rock squad should be to defeat all of your opponent's figures or die trying, not drag the game to time with a single surviving character.[quote]

I'm sure TCW played very aggressively, but a 6-man squad like that, as you pointed out once before, is not typically designed with that idea in mind. It has to constantly wait the opponent out and work through its positioning with its more standard 15+ character build and then make the tough decisions almost all at the start of the round.


@Jedi Master - It sounds to me like you love the "underdog" game, where you have to really think about squad building and tactics to win against difficult if not impossible odds. Honestly, I think you can still play that way even with the cards the design teams have created. It's true that nothing has been done to help the old Mace - quite honestly I pondered over it for more than a year and couldn't come up with an idea that would make him better without making already better pieces that much more powerful at the same time, so if you have a suggestion, I would love to hear (or read) it.

Lastly, if you're biggest complaint about the v-sets is that the Vong got "uber minis," well then I take that as a compliment. Seriously. The Rebels, Republic, and Separatist had been getting "uber minis" for the better part of 4 years before the Vong even got something that could compete in a casual-serious game, let alone a tournament. Why should the Vong faction be any less deserving? It's part of the game and deserves a place at the table, the same as all the other factions.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:51 pm 
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I agree with pretty much everything Jedi_Master said about the V-sets.

I am a little concerned with the powercreep that has been seen in the last couple sets. I am now seeing more an more mini's that can do 120dmg than ever before. It used to be that back when CotF came out, doing 90 damage was a lot. Now its so common that its making the older peices that were good at the time not very good anymore. WotC addressed this problem with the last few sets they made. For example:

Qui-Gon Jinn, JT made all the older force users with low attack able to compete with the newer peices.

Yularen made even old mini's that were shooters good again.

Whorm Loathsome made a lot of older mini's with less damage output than newer stuff a lot more playable. For example all the old Dooku's and Mauls were made playable again. I'm still looking for a CE for the Seps that makes the older Seperatist commanders better, like Assaj and Durge. Also an attack boost of some kind for living seperatist is something that has been needed for some time now and still hasn't been addressed yet.

General Skywalker made a lot of the older Republic jedi good again. Run up and do a lightsaber sweep for 30 dmg isn't to terrible bad.

These are just a few examples. Now obviously those peices made newer peices good also, but they also made older ones playable. The costing of the new peices in the V-sets has me really worried, just like Jedi_Master said earlier. Why pay for older stuff when new stuff has better stats and abilities and better damage output for the same cost. I think the reverse should happen. Make more of the older units better. I can see that there have been a few peices that have done just that in the V-sets, and those peices are my favorite ones of the sets. The Yammosk was absolutely needed and a great addition to the faction. Previsla from Vengance is another peice that is a great addition to the game. Pretty much most things in DotF were great additions to the game. R&R had some peices with issues for me personally. I don't think the Sith really needed that much more help in Vengance. I love the Sith Alchemist! But stuff like the Huntress really hurts older mini's without force renewal. Force renewal used to be rare. Now stuff without it really gets hit hard by Huntress. The older Republic Jedi from CS in particular. I think older mini's should be brought up to par with the newer stuff and I'm glad the designers have this in mind. However, I don't want to see new mini's completely replace the older ones. Cost of mini's should go up, in order to balance the game in my opinion. I also really want to see factions keep the flavor they had been established in the WotC sets.

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 Post subject: Re: V-set 4 report
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:37 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
Yes you want to get your Rakgouls... trust me!

fasgdfk asgdflasjkdfaksb?!?!? These guys are allready best enough with celest and or exar how could you make them any better?! I love finishing a game with 3 more of them when I started with! Way for the first spoiler to be thing thing that ill be looking forward to the most, and have to wait the longest for!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:21 pm 
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My gut feeling from reading these comments is that people are gravitating toward the top-end cards when they play, and are missing out on a lot of the subtle design aspects offered in the stuff that looks less appealing. To say that the designs implemented make the old stuff obsolete is, frankly, to overlook alot of what the cards have done, though not intentionally. It's easy to look at something like the new Mace and scream WHOA because on paper he looks scary as hell, but anyone who has played with him very much will tell you he is beatable. Is he better than any other Mace? Absolutely, but then again every other Mace was too expensive for what it brought to the table. Even in casual play, it was a liability at best and a hinderance at worst. At least with this Mace, if you lose him, you still have a fair chance to win and didn't just put all your eggs in one basket.

Mace is only one character out of about, umm, 200 or so cards our teams have created. My advice is delve deeper into everything you own and fight the emerging minor factions with stuff WotC already made and/or (preferably and) the counters that were built into the v-sets. They're there, you just have to find them. ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:26 pm 
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DarthBane53 wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
Yes you want to get your Rakgouls... trust me!

fasgdfk asgdflasjkdfaksb?!?!? These guys are allready best enough with celest and or exar how could you make them any better?! I love finishing a game with 3 more of them when I started with! Way for the first spoiler to be thing thing that ill be looking forward to the most, and have to wait the longest for!


This isn't the first spoiler. There have been others for those that listen closely.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
Maybe its just me, but I think Rock is starting to take over the meta already. Celestial Warrior's "LoGOWKey" came out exceptionally strong at Lansing City champs and I know at my local store it has won a large majority of our events.


Which is why I said...

Quote:
The goal of a rock squad should be to defeat all of your opponent's figures or die trying, not drag the game to time with a single surviving character.
Quote:

I'm sure TCW played very aggressively, but a 6-man squad like that, as you pointed out once before, is not typically designed with that idea in mind. It has to constantly wait the opponent out and work through its positioning with its more standard 15+ character build and then make the tough decisions almost all at the start of the round.


My misunderstanding, I assumed "rock squad" meant a squad of high cost heavy hitters.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:24 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
To be entirely honest the new Maul has never shown up at an event. Actually since Savage Oppress showed up last week this means he has more tourney time for us then Maul did. The new Maul is downright smexy but I don't think anyone has figured out how to build around him yet.


I did place with the new Maul two weeks ago. Revan and Maul, with 2 Acolytes. Did fairly well, if I must say so.

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