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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:53 pm 
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One reason I'd hesitate to play Zannah or GOWK at a tournament is that you struggle to score 3 point wins with them. If we agree that they do slow the game down and it's a struggle to finish a game in an hour, the upside of that is that players using them aren't going to get many 3 point wins.

I read back and saw that Johnny made the same point already, so I guess I'm seconding what he said....


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:10 am 
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TheHutts wrote:
One reason I'd hesitate to play Zannah or GOWK at a tournament is that you struggle to score 3 point wins with them. If we agree that they do slow the game down and it's a struggle to finish a game in an hour, the upside of that is that players using them aren't going to get many 3 point wins.

I read back and saw that Johnny made the same point already, so I guess I'm seconding what he said....

Thats not true with Zannah because of what the sith have for CE's its a lot easier for them.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:50 am 
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Keep in mind that the 3-2 system also help add balance to GOWK/Zannah.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:58 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Keep in mind that the 3-2 system also help add balance to GOWK/Zannah.



Umm, not really.

Sure - it is harder to get 3 point wins playing with GOWK/Zannah - but that doesn't mean people won't play them.

And since people will play them, then even if you are smart enough NOT to play them - you may well have to FACE them.

When you used to face GOWK, you would systematically eliminate the support and then continuously chip away at GOWK and get the win (pre-3/2 system). Now if you face GOWK/Zannah, you have a difficult decision: you can recklessly dive straight for them, knowing you'll need to sink a ridiculously high number of hits to kill them in time, causing you to lose more often than before. Or proceed as before and get punished by the 2 point win.

I'm more concerned about opponents playing them and not allowing ME a 3 point win.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:21 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Keep in mind that the 3-2 system also help add balance to GOWK/Zannah.



Umm, not really.

Sure - it is harder to get 3 point wins playing with GOWK/Zannah - but that doesn't mean people won't play them.

And since people will play them, then even if you are smart enough NOT to play them - you may well have to FACE them.

When you used to face GOWK, you would systematically eliminate the support and then continuously chip away at GOWK and get the win (pre-3/2 system). Now if you face GOWK/Zannah, you have a difficult decision: you can recklessly dive straight for them, knowing you'll need to sink a ridiculously high number of hits to kill them in time, causing you to lose more often than before. Or proceed as before and get punished by the 2 point win.

I'm more concerned about opponents playing them and not allowing ME a 3 point win.



You have to think about what each faction can do against them. Seps have poggle bombs and lancer coupled with really good shooting and sids lightning in their meta squads so they can win easy over SSM

mandos have crack shot crusaders to combine fire and get straight through

Most sith pieces either do a lot of damage per hit or have direct damage.

A lot of NR pieces have a direct damage power

Rebels have speed and do lots of damage in big piles. They could beat SSM before and they still can

Imperials either have Lord Vader ignore it completely or shoot from inside a ysalamiri field and win

Old republics master vandar makes gowk/zannah spend 2 force to reroll so he alone can beat them. If you don't run him just Bastilla alone kills CEs and brings her squads damage up high enough to kill them

Vong ignore the rerolls so they dont care, its basically just parry vs them

Republic has incredible speed, they just outrun/outlast till they die. Or they cam swarm them and pick them apart.

Each faction has it's own way to beat SSM. Is it annoying? Yes. Also remember offensive teams have been in the forefront in top tier meta for a long time. SSM brings an actual counter to the autokill of pieces by some strategies.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:35 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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Weeks wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Keep in mind that the 3-2 system also help add balance to GOWK/Zannah.



Umm, not really.

Sure - it is harder to get 3 point wins playing with GOWK/Zannah - but that doesn't mean people won't play them.

And since people will play them, then even if you are smart enough NOT to play them - you may well have to FACE them.

When you used to face GOWK, you would systematically eliminate the support and then continuously chip away at GOWK and get the win (pre-3/2 system). Now if you face GOWK/Zannah, you have a difficult decision: you can recklessly dive straight for them, knowing you'll need to sink a ridiculously high number of hits to kill them in time, causing you to lose more often than before. Or proceed as before and get punished by the 2 point win.

I'm more concerned about opponents playing them and not allowing ME a 3 point win.



You have to think about what each faction can do against them. Seps have poggle bombs and lancer coupled with really good shooting and sids lightning in their meta squads so they can win easy over SSM-- poggle bombs vs zannah with force bubble and motf 2.......... not a great match up at all... better against GoWK I will give you that.

mandos have crack shot crusaders to combine fire and get straight through---- like it is so easy to get crack shot off on a character with SSM... like the idea but just don't see it.

Most sith pieces either do a lot of damage per hit or have direct damage. Can't argue here.

A lot of NR pieces have a direct damage power.... plz elaborate force push 2 and lightning 2 just is not enough.... maybe kyp's force push 5.....

Rebels have speed and do lots of damage in big piles. They could beat SSM before and they still can-- Hopefully rebels get something to make them competitive against all the bastila squads that will be ran because if not rebels will get toasted by OR and probably won't be highly played.

Imperials either have Lord Vader ignore it completely or shoot from inside a ysalamiri field and win-- best one i think to beat SSM.

Old republics master vandar makes gowk/zannah spend 2 force to reroll so he alone can beat them. If you don't run him just Bastilla alone kills CEs and brings her squads damage up high enough to kill them--- but what about everything else in the SSM squad.

Vong ignore the rerolls so they dont care, its basically just parry vs them-- yeah i like them against SSM.

Republic has incredible speed, they just outrun/outlast till they die. Or they cam swarm them and pick them apart.

Each faction has it's own way to beat SSM. Is it annoying? Yes. Also remember offensive teams have been in the forefront in top tier meta for a long time. SSM brings an actual counter to the autokill of pieces by some strategies.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:57 pm 
Master of the Order
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Weeks wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Keep in mind that the 3-2 system also help add balance to GOWK/Zannah.



Umm, not really.

Sure - it is harder to get 3 point wins playing with GOWK/Zannah - but that doesn't mean people won't play them.

And since people will play them, then even if you are smart enough NOT to play them - you may well have to FACE them.

When you used to face GOWK, you would systematically eliminate the support and then continuously chip away at GOWK and get the win (pre-3/2 system). Now if you face GOWK/Zannah, you have a difficult decision: you can recklessly dive straight for them, knowing you'll need to sink a ridiculously high number of hits to kill them in time, causing you to lose more often than before. Or proceed as before and get punished by the 2 point win.

I'm more concerned about opponents playing them and not allowing ME a 3 point win.



You have to think about what each faction can do against them. Seps have poggle bombs and lancer coupled with really good shooting and sids lightning in their meta squads so they can win easy over SSM

mandos have crack shot crusaders to combine fire and get straight through

Most sith pieces either do a lot of damage per hit or have direct damage.

A lot of NR pieces have a direct damage power

Rebels have speed and do lots of damage in big piles. They could beat SSM before and they still can

Imperials either have Lord Vader ignore it completely or shoot from inside a ysalamiri field and win

Old republics master vandar makes gowk/zannah spend 2 force to reroll so he alone can beat them. If you don't run him just Bastilla alone kills CEs and brings her squads damage up high enough to kill them

Vong ignore the rerolls so they dont care, its basically just parry vs them

Republic has incredible speed, they just outrun/outlast till they die. Or they cam swarm them and pick them apart.

Each faction has it's own way to beat SSM. Is it annoying? Yes. Also remember offensive teams have been in the forefront in top tier meta for a long time. SSM brings an actual counter to the autokill of pieces by some strategies.


Yes, every faction has tools to get past SSM, and every faction can win against SSM. I am more concerned about the TIME it takes to implement these strategies.

For example - you would need to have Ganner force push GOWK 6 times. You'd need some time to get into position to set that up as well. You're talking 8 rounds here, and most likely Ganner will be dead before you can pull that off. Obviously you'd be attacking as well - so some of that damage goes through, maybe it only takes 6 rounds, or 5 rounds. Well that is still way too long to concentrate on 1 character, you'll lose that game or get a 2 point win at best.

Really good counters to GOWK just aren't viable vs the rest of the field now

One great squad that wastes GOWK and did well 3 years ago in the Regionals was run by James W (Jew3) - it was rebel double push 4. It was nasty, but it gets annihilated by any fast, mobile, or shooter heavy squad. Stealth and Blue tore it to pieces at Kokomo regionals 2009.

JonnyB's gungan artillerist squad took 2nd at Chicago Regionals 2009, beating all other GOWK squads, but couldn't compete with Reeikan's Speedy Smuggler Cannon.

My point is that direct damage heavy squads can't compete in the meta right now. Sure there are some top meta squads that have SOME minor form of direct damage, but you can't rely on it to take out a character with SSM.

I played quite a bit with Poggle Bombs last year, and they rarely even blew up. They certainly weren't my main offensive power. They were far more valuable as a defensive shield to protect my commanders and my lancer from other lancers or yodabuck. Unless GOWK runs into the middle of a bunch of bombs like a moron, you're not going to be able to blow him up.

Anyway - I've said my piece, no point in belaboring it. I feel like I can beat SSM - not a problem. Beating it in time to finish games, in a meta where that is already often difficult to do (SSM aside), is the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:41 pm 
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Tonight we ran a 200 pt tournament here in Danville IL. Two players played GOWK and more often then not were the last players to finish the round. While our tournaments are not the top tier of competitive squads both GOWK squads went to time each round and both only lost to Vong. (who ultimately won the tourney.) The thing that really bothered me is what the GOWK squads were allowed to get away with.

Squad 1.
GOWK
T3M4
Aurra Sing (Clone Strike)
Boba BH
R2 Astromech
Mas Amedda

Squad 2
GOWK
Commander Ahsoka
Windu (Vset)
Chargarin Mercanary Commander
Dash Rendar

I think both squads had some filler stuff but I don't remember off the top of my head. I know Squad 2 whipped my Kavar/Thon Squad pretty handily and I don't think either player lost a GOWK outside of the Vong matches. For all the bad talk about players who will play GOWK, I almost find myself wondering why wouldn't someone play him??

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Last edited by audrisampson on Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:25 am 
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I can't speak to most of the counters Weeks has listed, but I can tell you that Pellaeon neutralizes Zannah effectively. Her longevity in our games has come down to some unusual SSM save luck and his ability to eliminate Pellaeon. Having Pellaeon isn't enough, though... you need some effective damage dealers. Zannah and mouse walls are a bigger problem, but Vengeance should help with that.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:07 am 
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Posted to the main page for downloading love:

http://www.swmgamers.com/page.php?27

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
I can't speak to most of the counters Weeks has listed, but I can tell you that Pellaeon neutralizes Zannah effectively. Her longevity in our games has come down to some unusual SSM save luck and his ability to eliminate Pellaeon. Having Pellaeon isn't enough, though... you need some effective damage dealers. Zannah and mouse walls are a bigger problem, but Vengeance should help with that.



I don't think mice walls will be an issue for clever players. When vengeance drops much will be gained for the meta.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:02 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:30 pm 
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the new obi with Qui gon is a pretty good counter too if you play him at the right time.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:57 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Keep in mind that the 3-2 system also help add balance to GOWK/Zannah.



Umm, not really.

Sure - it is harder to get 3 point wins playing with GOWK/Zannah - but that doesn't mean people won't play them.

And since people will play them, then even if you are smart enough NOT to play them - you may well have to FACE them.

When you used to face GOWK, you would systematically eliminate the support and then continuously chip away at GOWK and get the win (pre-3/2 system). Now if you face GOWK/Zannah, you have a difficult decision: you can recklessly dive straight for them, knowing you'll need to sink a ridiculously high number of hits to kill them in time, causing you to lose more often than before. Or proceed as before and get punished by the 2 point win.

I'm more concerned about opponents playing them and not allowing ME a 3 point win.


This much bitching, we must be doing something right.

The decision to reverse the ruling on SSM goes far beyond GOWK. Yes, he's the most abusive, but as stated the reason for the change is due to the strides we made with the V-Sets. What's the point of SSM when there are multiple guys now who can just step up to you within a round or 2 and finish you off on their turn? Some of them don't even cost what GOWK does!

The 3-2 scoring system is a factor. I don't buy the argument about rolling hot with dice. That's the name of the game. I've gotten the big D with Boba Fett as many as 5 times in a single game - that's just the way the cookie crumbles. If you brought a bunch of shooters and couldn't get to GOWK with any melee figures, hot rolling would do you in just as easily.

Anyway, the decision was not reached quickly or made lightly. There are so many ways to dish out a ton of damage now, it was the right thing to do. Even if that makes some games go to time, that statement is still correct.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:06 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Keep in mind that the 3-2 system also help add balance to GOWK/Zannah.



Umm, not really.

Sure - it is harder to get 3 point wins playing with GOWK/Zannah - but that doesn't mean people won't play them.

And since people will play them, then even if you are smart enough NOT to play them - you may well have to FACE them.

When you used to face GOWK, you would systematically eliminate the support and then continuously chip away at GOWK and get the win (pre-3/2 system). Now if you face GOWK/Zannah, you have a difficult decision: you can recklessly dive straight for them, knowing you'll need to sink a ridiculously high number of hits to kill them in time, causing you to lose more often than before. Or proceed as before and get punished by the 2 point win.

I'm more concerned about opponents playing them and not allowing ME a 3 point win.


This much bitching, we must be doing something right.

The decision to reverse the ruling on SSM goes far beyond GOWK. Yes, he's the most abusive, but as stated the reason for the change is due to the strides we made with the V-Sets. What's the point of SSM when there are multiple guys now who can just step up to you within a round or 2 and finish you off on their turn? Some of them don't even cost what GOWK does!

The 3-2 scoring system is a factor. I don't buy the argument about rolling hot with dice. That's the name of the game. I've gotten the big D with Boba Fett as many as 5 times in a single game - that's just the way the cookie crumbles. If you brought a bunch of shooters and couldn't get to GOWK with any melee figures, hot rolling would do you in just as easily.

Anyway, the decision was not reached quickly or made lightly. There are so many ways to dish out a ton of damage now, it was the right thing to do. Even if that makes some games go to time, that statement is still correct.




My only problem with your statement is that you put in you don't buy the rolling hot idea, but with GoWK all you need is a 7 or even a 3 to take no damage so you do not really have to roll all that hot, and Zannah can just force bubble two of your attacks anyways, so it is not like you have to even roll 11's to take no damage.
I will agree that the v-sets have done a lot to make SSM a little bit less of a factor but not enough to where I think this change needed to occur. I guess regionals and some more tournaments will show us all who is right though.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:31 pm 
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I'm speaking for myself here, but, if I were a judge, and a game came to time, and Player A only had a character with SSM left versus quite a few other pieces on the other side, and the SSM character had avoided quite a bit of damage, I would probably award a 3 pt victory to the Player B, just because they had played the game the way we want, to be finished.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:38 pm 
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dvader831 wrote:
I'm speaking for myself here, but, if I were a judge, and a game came to time, and Player A only had a character with SSM left versus quite a few other pieces on the other side, and the SSM character had avoided quite a bit of damage, I would probably award a 3 pt victory to the Player B, just because they had played the game the way we want, to be finished.


That would be a an abusive use of Judging powers. Heck in most cases the 55 point GOWK is probably worth more then whats left.

@DeathsBaine: I guess we will see when the reports from Lansing City Champs hit the site.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Actually, it's not abusive. A judge at his or her discretion can award a 3 pt. win. If the player is landing tons of hits but they are getting swatted away, then the spirit of the game is satisified and a 3 pt. win is warranted.

Nerfing SSM hurt every character with the ability when only one is powerful with it and because of it. With characters like the new Mace and Maul and Revan running around, SSM is kind of pointless if it doesn't stop melee. Those characters needed a solid counter and now they have one, and the best part is it didn't even fall on the V-set designers to make it. :)

It's also worth noting that you haven't seen Vengeance yet. And if that doesn't convince you, then just wait until you see set 4.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:50 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Actually, it's not abusive. A judge at his or her discretion can award a 3 pt. win. If the player is landing tons of hits but they are getting swatted away, then the spirit of the game is satisified and a 3 pt. win is warranted.


Well, this completely goes against the 200 or 2 theory... but I guess it is up to each judge individually.

I, for one, am not saying that SSM is to overpowered now by any means, just saying like Timmer that I could see it going against the idea of completing matches in the allotted hour time span. As for what is coming out in the next vets, I hope they do help negate some of these situations so that there can be an errata-less set of floor rules, but from what I have seen so far I think this change may be a little premature.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:34 pm 
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DeathsBaine wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Actually, it's not abusive. A judge at his or her discretion can award a 3 pt. win. If the player is landing tons of hits but they are getting swatted away, then the spirit of the game is satisified and a 3 pt. win is warranted.


Well, this completely goes against the 200 or 2 theory... but I guess it is up to each judge individually.

I, for one, am not saying that SSM is to overpowered now by any means, just saying like Timmer that I could see it going against the idea of completing matches in the allotted hour time span. As for what is coming out in the next vets, I hope they do help negate some of these situations so that there can be an errata-less set of floor rules, but from what I have seen so far I think this change may be a little premature.



I AM THE 200 or 2 JUDGE, and I am the guy who writes the floor rules. Do the math.

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