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 Post subject: Klatoonian Black Sun Vigo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:11 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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Klatoonian Black Sun Vigo

Fringe
Cost: 25

Hit Points: 50
Defense: 18
Attack: 10
Damage: 10

Special Abilities
Black Sun (If a character whose name contains Xizor or Vigo is in the same squad, this character gains Grenades 10)
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Stealth (If this character has cover, he does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)

Commander Effect
Black Sun allies within 6 squares gain Stealth and Twin Attack

Proxy Piece: Klatoonian Enforcer


Last edited by HanSolo79 on Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:16 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Klatoonian Black Sun Vigo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:34 pm 
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Be nice to see a Vigo piece that, at least in my humble opinion, would really make a lot of those low cost, Black Sun peons worth building in a squad.
Add in the other Vigo's and/or one of the Xizor pieces' and you now would have a nice little group of vicious Black Sun 'glass-cannons' with this guy.

Encourage any critique that included solutions to problems and/or positive feed back :)

Echo and Grand Moff Boris have both been a BIG help with their constructive critique on some of my character/ability ideas in the recent past and if you both are out there, I would sure appreciate your takes again on this one :maul:


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 Post subject: Re: Klatoonian Black Sun Vigo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:58 pm 
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I like the CE - it's nice to have an alternative to the Czerka for the TBSVs.

He's potentially a very heavy hitter with IG Tarkin, a Czerka, and Thrawn - he could get up to quad/twin for 30s at +16. I wonder if it's a bit much for 25 points, although it is an expensive setup. You could get him accurate with Xizor, and SuperStealth as well....


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 Post subject: Re: Klatoonian Black Sun Vigo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:13 am 
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TheHutts wrote:
I like the CE - it's nice to have an alternative to the Czerka for the TBSVs.

He's potentially a very heavy hitter with IG Tarkin, a Czerka, and Thrawn - he could get up to quad/twin for 30s at +16. I wonder if it's a bit much for 25 points, although it is an expensive setup. You could get him accurate with Xizor, and SuperStealth as well....



Thats true, he could be a heavy hitter IF one were to build a squad like you mentioned there in your example; however, you'd have only 6 activations with 50 points remaining (thats just with one of these KBSV's). You'd probably be able to say that about at least a dozen pieces, more or less, if one were inclined to devote that much to a single character. With only 50 HP, Im positive it wouldn't be worth it.

I even built two versions of a squad featuring all those commanders you mentioned. I found at best you could get up to 14 activations in both without sacrificing competitiveness. Even adding 2 'Klatoonian BSV's' in one of them. The problem is it's still an awfully fragile squad with those KBSV's as center pieces and almost nothing in support... Here's that version as an example:

40 Prince Xizor 100 22 12 10
32 Thrawn (Mitth'raw'nuruodo) 70 18 11 10
25 Klatoonian BSV 50 18 8 10
25 Klatoonian BSV 50 18 8 10
22 Imperial Governor Tarkin 50 14 5 10
18 Moff Nyna Calixte 40 14 5 10
13 Czerka Scientist 10 13 1 10
5 Human Blaster-for-Hire 10 12 4 10
5 Human Blaster-for-Hire 10 12 4 10
3 Mouse Droid 10 20 0 0
3 Mouse Droid 10 20 0 0
3 Mouse Droid 10 20 0 0
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist 10 12 0 10
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist 10 12 0 10



To me that means it would still be balanced. High damage potential, low HP; leaving it fragile, not to mention that people would just pick off the pieces that didnt benefit from the Super Stealth CE, i.e. the Czerka Scientist, before getting adjacent to the KBSV and whaling away on it.

But I do appreciate what you've brought up. I was kinda wrestling with the attack type. I found that at cost 25 the most potential damage output for a commander piece would in fact be 60 without any allied CE buffs. I liked the idea of Triple Attack because, well, there are only 6 non-force using, non-melee Triple Attack pieces in all the game; none of which have a CE. So why not a 'ground breaking' piece? Each new set after the last seems to have had at least one or two 'ground breakers' and having that be a non-unique piece would be cool (uniques always "hog" the glory).

If something like this were to be accepted into Vset #4 and the design team decided that they wanted to change it, I hope it would just be dropping Deceptive. But if worse comes to worst, I could live with changing Triple to Twin... hahaha, in truth I'd just like to see one of these character ideas get used in some form :)


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 Post subject: Re: Klatoonian Black Sun Vigo
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:17 am 
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I actually like it. I think Triple Attack is ok at his cost considering his base stats are relatively low, so if you really want to turn him into a major attacker you have to play lots of other pieces to make it too bad. Although, in a squad with Whorm he can stand still and attack an activated character 6 times at +12 for 20 damage each, which is pretty strong. I think dropping Careful Shot might be a good idea, then you can even increase the base attack to +10 I think. Or you could drop Deceptive.

Honestly, I like the idea of just dropping Triple for Twin. It makes it so he has what he gives out with his CE (certainly not a requirement, but something that's seen quite a lot) and helps temper him somewhat.

His CE is really good. Combine him with the NBSV and any Fringe characters with Stealth are now gaining Twin. All those characters could get it before with Whorm, though, so I think that's ok. He does open up things like playing him with the Exile so everybody gets Extra + Twin, but I don't think that would be too bad since that's a lot of points to invest. It will really make the little Black Sun guys stronger; an Ithorian Commander swarm of Aqualish Assassins with this guy would be brutal. He's also a great alternative to the Czerka in the TBSV cannon squads.

Overall, I actually really like what you have here. My main suggestion would be to tone down his own offensive power some, or at least playtest him some with that in mind. His low base attack and damage (and the fact that he can't get GMA, so if he does use Triple he has to be exposed) might keep that in check enough that it's ok. As an attacker on his own he does best in a squad with Whorm, but if you want to benefit from his CE you're better off not playing Whorm. I like that since it makes it difficult to max him out to crazy levels, which is good.

Oh, and keep in mind that if you do play 2 of these in a squad, you don't have to play a Czerka, since they'll be giving Twin attack to each other. It would also be boardwide in a squad with Mas.

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 Post subject: Re: Klatoonian Black Sun Vigo
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:56 am 
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Thanks fellas for the critique. Echo whats up my dude, always appreciate your insights!

I think Im going to change the CE to only affect Black Sun followers due to the point you brought up about having two KBSV's in the same squad affecting each other with that CE... something far to easy to exploit. Im also upping his base attack to 10 and dropping Careful Shot; this should help tone down his offensive capabilities, since simply adding a Czerka gives him Twin to go along with his Triple.

Just a minor side point about Whorm's CE though Echo: it only effects followers so this wouldn't benefit the KBSV.

I like the idea of Triple Attack though... just for the reason that I stated previously. Sure with IG Tarkin and a Czerka he gets Triple, Extra, Twin but with only 10 attack and no access to GMA he'd have to stand pat to have that all go off.

Btw, here's a list of Black Sun characters who instantly become more valuable IF something like this CE were to be approved for V-set 4 or w/e:

Human Blaster-for-Hire (would become one of the best 5 point pieces)
Nikto Pirate (with this CE and Xizor's along with Hondo Ohnaka's, this piece becomes possibly the next best swarm piece)
Klatooinian Hunter (with Stealth/Twin and Xizor he actually becomes an option in a build besides being a proxy piece, how 'bout that!)
Quarren Bounty Hunter (remember this guy, kinda sorta?)


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 Post subject: Re: Klatoonian Black Sun Vigo
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:31 am 
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I think he loses a lot of value if he can't boost up the TBSVs - that's where I thought a lot of his utility was. I'd rather tone down his own attacking abilities than his CE.


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 Post subject: Re: Klatoonian Black Sun Vigo
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:28 am 
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HanSolo79 wrote:
Just a minor side point about Whorm's CE though Echo: it only effects followers so this wouldn't benefit the KBSV.


Ha, whoops, good call.

I think he's quite good as he is now. Still has a very high damage ceiling (just add a Czerka and he can get to 120 damage, a whole lot for his cost), but you have to work to get it and his attack isn't great. His CE still benefits a number of Black Sun guys, as you pointed out, but also all the Fringe Followers with Stealth that can benefit from the NBSV.

I think he's at least good enough to playtest right now.

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"You can't per aspera ad astra unless there's some aspera in front of your astra. And that means sometimes the aspera gets you." - Donald X. Vaccarino


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 Post subject: Re: Klatoonian Black Sun Vigo
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:05 pm 
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TheHutts wrote:
I think he loses a lot of value if he can't boost up the TBSVs - that's where I thought a lot of his utility was. I'd rather tone down his own attacking abilities than his CE.



Ya know, thats a good point Hutt. Since Im dead set on seeing a Triple attack commander, haha, I think Im going to play test him with a CE that affects Black Sun allies again but drop Deceptive. This protects against the exploit of having two KBSV's in the same squad (giving each other Twin with Deceptive on top of benefiting from any other squad CE's) while allowing BSV's gain Twin and Stealth, if they didnt have it already.

Thats probably going to be best for this guy... and with his CE affecting BS allies, he should be right in the cost range thats appropriate. But by all means if you see something else that could use tweaking with, lemme know :)

Thank you again fellas for the suggestions and critique :Boba:


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