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 Post subject: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:56 pm 
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I assume the following is allowed:
Make squad with Palpatine order 66, Pallaeon and some random clones.
Since that old Palpatine is only useful for bringing in clones i want to replace him with some other imperial character.

Is it allowed? Benefiting from his CE during squad-building, then replacing him during setup?


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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:57 pm 
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Nuka wrote:
I assume the following is allowed:
Make squad with Palpatine order 66, Pallaeon and some random clones.
Since that old Palpatine is only useful for bringing in clones i want to replace him with some other imperial character.

Is it allowed? Benefiting from his CE during squad-building, then replacing him during setup?


yep.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Trying to make some fun squad with general weirs, but scout troopers on speeders are kinda meh compared to clone troopers on speeders :jango:


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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:01 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
Nuka wrote:
I assume the following is allowed:
Make squad with Palpatine order 66, Pallaeon and some random clones.
Since that old Palpatine is only useful for bringing in clones i want to replace him with some other imperial character.

Is it allowed? Benefiting from his CE during squad-building, then replacing him during setup?


yep.


I understand the reasoning behind this ruling. The Pellaeon CE doesn't take effect until AFTER both squads have been set up on the map. So you can do this situation with Palpy, Sith Lord because when you built the squad it was legal.

Here's my question:

Let's say you have Admiral Pallaeon, IE Thrawn and General Rhom Moc (who costs 39 points). Can you swap out Moc for Grand Admiral Thrawn and have both Thrawns in your squad?

I will support any answer given, but would like to know the logic behind it.

There is a prescedence for "Yes" because of the quoted senario above. This swapping of characters is after set up and after you have legally built your squad. There is also the prescedence of having Betrayal occur to give you another character in your squad with the same name or uniqueness.

Of course the answer could be "No" do to uniqueness, but I thought that only occurred during squad construction. In any case, I would like to know what the official answer is and the thought process involved. Thanks and cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:17 am 
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The answer is no because it violates the Unique Rule. Also you can't swap out a character for a different version of the same character because this is also a violation of the Unique Rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:27 am 
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R5Don4 wrote:
Also you can't swap out a character for a different version of the same character because this is also a violation of the Unique Rule.

??? That's news to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:00 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
R5Don4 wrote:
Also you can't swap out a character for a different version of the same character because this is also a violation of the Unique Rule.

??? That's news to me.


To me as well. I'm also not convinced about ignoring the unique rule in the other example presented, though the reasoning is sound.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:12 am 
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Having a double-swap (double Thrawns) could be very problematic.

Seeing as many uniques are given a certain design based on what they and other minis of the same identity offer to their faction, I think that it would be a bad idea to allow two of the same unique in a squad.

It's one thing to have two of the same unique in your squad because of a dice roll (ie, Ferus' DT), but it's another thing to have two of the same unique as a guarantee (ie, through Pallaeon's CE).

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:17 am 
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Note that the Unique rule is NOT only in play during squad building. If I'm playing Lobot CLO and roll an 11 on initiative, I cannot bring in Uni Lobot with the Reinforcements. You can't bring in a second Thrawn for the same reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:29 pm 
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It was a shock to me as well, when I first heard about it. I believe it was Sithborg over on Bloomilk quite a while back but I haven't been able to find the original post or anything else to back it up.
Now I would really to hear from one of the rules guys to set the record straight. The reasoning I recall was that once you include one version of a character in your squad, all the other versions are off the table because of the Unique Rule in squad building.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:22 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
It was a shock to me as well, when I first heard about it. I believe it was Sithborg over on Bloomilk quite a while back but I haven't been able to find the original post or anything else to back it up.
Now I would really to hear from one of the rules guys to set the record straight. The reasoning I recall was that once you include one version of a character in your squad, all the other versions are off the table because of the Unique Rule in squad building.


That does seem like an odd application of the rule, but I can see the logic. If you play Dash Rendar, he dies, and then you roll an 11 with Lobot CLO in your squad, you're not allowed to bring in a new Dash to replace the dead one. The "Dash Rendar" unique slot has been "used up" essentially.

Likewise, if you build a squad with Pellaeon and GA Thrawn, you have already "used up" the "Thrawn" unique slot, so replacing him with IE Thrawn wouldn't be allowed. It doesn't matter that GA Thrawn is no longer on the table in the same way that it doesn't matter that Dash isn't on the table any more in the first example.

Still kind of odd and I wouldn't have thought of it myself, but I imagine the logic behind it is something along those lines.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:06 pm 
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In that case, the way I worked my squad in the Epic 500pt PA tournament this weekend was illegal...bleh. I can follow the logic, but I really don't think it's a good ruling.

First of all, it would severely limit the usefulness of Pallaeon, since most of the good Imperial commanders are included under a small number of uniques: Vaders, Thrawns, Palpatines, etc. Since those pieces are in most Imperial squads, Pallaeon doesn't have many playable characters to consider for his CE.

Regardless, I think the final ruling would need to take into account the designers' original intent for the piece.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:32 pm 
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I think people are thinking of a different ruling. You can replace a character with a different version, since to me replacing means they are no longer part of your squad, thus adding a new version doesn't violate Unique.

The difference here, is that Thrawn is still part of your squad, thus you must still obey Unique.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
I think people are thinking of a different ruling. You can replace a character with a different version, since to me replacing means they are no longer part of your squad, thus adding a new version doesn't violate Unique.

The difference here, is that Thrawn is still part of your squad, thus you must still obey Unique.

So you can trade one Thrawn for another or one Vader for another, but you can't trade one piece to get a 2nd Thrawn or Vader? That sounds about right, IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:04 pm 
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sounds like what the designers intended.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:56 am 
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Yes, that was the intention. There was talk in the beginning about how you could choose to begin with Vader LotF but if you needed more of a beatstick Vader then you could switch him for Lord Vader.


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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:20 am 
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IT would seem that Han Frozen in Carbonite would be the precedent to allow for the swapping of a unique character. Take one out add in the other one.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Azavander wrote:
IT would seem that Han Frozen in Carbonite would be the precedent to allow for the swapping of a unique character. Take one out add in the other one.


Not really. Frozen in Carbonite is a lot more complicated, and doesn't work like Pelleaons replacement at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:28 pm 
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I meant that you are replacing a unique with another unique piece named han

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 Post subject: Re: Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Azavander wrote:
I meant that you are replacing a unique with another unique piece named han


The way Frozen in Carbonite works really makes it hard for me to use it as a precedent for Pelleon's CE. Yeah, they sort of end up doing something somewhat similar, but the mechanics are night and day.

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